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The Shack By Wm Paul Young


glintofpewter

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Dutch and Bill,

Would the two of you like for me to email and see if I can find others to join in our discussion before we move on, or do we just want to forge ahead? I'm okay either way.

 

Email is fine with me, Janet. I couldn't find my book so I went to Halfprice Books yesterday and bought one. In looking for an online version, this book sure has polarized alot of Christians! Isn't Christianity fun? :lol:

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This is what I sent out to my small church group. So far, no response in my email:

 

 

I have just started an online book discussion about The Shack, by William Paul Young. Right now, there are only 3 of us in the discussion group, and we are just now talking about Chapter 1, so we'd love it if you join us.

 

It is hosted through the Center for Progressive Christianity. www.tcpc.org You may want to look around here and see if you would be comfortable discussing the book with progressive Christians or not. It is not necessary to agree with all the 8 points of progressive christianity in order to do the book discussions, but at least you'd have some background. You can click on the link to the messsage board and then Book Discussions and then The Shack, or this quick link might work. I am AllintheNameofProgress on the board. http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/1620-the-shack-by-wm-paul-young/

 

Hope to see you in the forum!

 

Janet

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You might mention in your email that we need an email address other than AOL when registering and to allow mail from @tcpc.org Presently AOL kicks out our validation emails as unsolicited spam. This necessitates a lot of extra communications on my part using a personal email address to try to get them to use an alternate to get them registered. I will do my best to get their registration approved as quickly as possible.

 

JosephM(as Admin)

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Chapter 2

 

This chapter, for me, brought back some good memories and some troubling ones, perhaps like Mack.

 

In 1987, I was hired as an electronic technician for Tektronix, a company that mainly makes oscilloscopes. Upon hiring me, they sent me to their headquarters in Beaverton, Oregon for a number of classes and I took the opportunity to see the local sights while I was there. I remember driving up the Columbia River and seeing Multnomah Falls. The falls are beautiful, breath-taking, and Young describes them better than I can. But if you can find a picture of them on the web, you'll get some sense (although just a taste) of what they are really like.

 

These experiences not only brought back good memories of my younger years, but helped me see Mack and Missy in the context of the story. I find it interesting, especially with nature, how stories or myths grow up around certain locales that tend to lend themselves as "sacred ground." In reality, I don't think that there is any such thing as "holy ground" or "thin places" where heaven meets earth. I tend to think that it is WE and our experiences that make these places holy, not some kind of longitude and latitude of spiritual doorways.

 

Mack's recounting of the sacrifice of the Indian maid was touching and, as Mack later points out, akin to the Jesus myth of redemption. These myths are, of course, sacred to us, they stir something in us and tell us that it is true that nothing is more powerful than true love. At the same time, Missy's questions show that she has a "theological problem" with understanding the Indian myth.

 

I share her struggle, but with the Christian myth. Although Mack makes the analogy of the sacrifice of the princess and the sacrifice of Jesus, the truth of the Christian message in our time is that if you don't believe the message, then the sacrifice does you no good. In the Indian tale, the princess' sacrifice led to all the ill waking up healed the next morning. No "personal faith" in the sacrifice was required. No believing in the deity of the princess was necessary. The healing of the sick was based, not on their faith and understanding, but upon a transaction between the Great Spirit and the Indian princess. If the princess' tale was told within the Christian framework, the only Indians to be healed would be the ones who believed in what the princess had done.

 

Missy's question about why the princess HAD to die was a good one. And I won't reveal any spoilers. But many modern people are asking the same thing of the Christian myth: "If God is a forgiving God, then why was Jesus' death absolutely necessary?" The conservatives point to the scripture in Hebrews that says, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." But the testimony of the rest of the Bible asserts that God had always forgiven people if they asked for it sincerely. So the modern Christian myth that Jesus HAD TO DIE in order for God to forgive us is a distortion, IMO, of God's character. In fact, if the Indian tale bears any resemblance to the truth of redemption, it sort of leads to universalism, doesn't it?

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Bill,

 

I won't be participating actively in this thread since I have not and probably will not be reading the book but since I read all the posts anyway, i thought i would comment (at the risk of sounding condescending) that it seems your comments on chapter 2 are well written and brings up items of interest and questions to perhaps all .

 

JOSEPH

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Bill

 

In fact, if the Indian tale bears any resemblance to the truth of redemption, it sort of leads to universalism, doesn't it?

 

Two passages that suggest the universalism you mention are John 12:32 and Romans 5:18. The Romans passage varies on just how many but does say "All" once. John is clear, and the context is that the "ruler of this world will be driven out. And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up will draw all people to myself." Depending on one's viewpoint there are final hurdles to get over or there is universal grace.

 

So why are we Christians? Perhaps the connection between the falls and the story of the Princess holds a clue. The story of the Princess is tied to a place. The story of Jesus also is tied to a time and a place. For most of us that means Jesus, as we each understand him, is our way to the Divine whether his story is a legend with a lesson, with a truth or a "true story".

 

I'm caught in Young's folding two parts of the story on top of each other. In a movie would Mack be having nightmares about the future. He does not seem someone who is worried about he future. The Phillips are portrayed as a well adjusted happy family. Even Kate loves her father and recognizes the deep nature of the questions Missy asks.

 

"That evening, as he sat among three laughing children watching one of nature's greatest shows, Mack's heart was penetrated by unexpected joy. ... He was a rich man, he thought to himself, in all ways that mattered."

 

It isn't a family that looks good on the outside but is weakened on the inside. They are ordinarily competent enough to handle most things that come their way. My spiritual journeys have been triggered when I realized that my faith wasn't strong enough to get me through a particular hard time. Why bad things happen to good people? Homosexuality and the Bible? Of course this is head knowledge. The knowing that Mack has will not help him:

 

From the forward

His favorite topics were all about God and creation and why people believe the way they do

 

Mack is above average: smart, competent, independent man and loving father. And his world is good.

 

Dutch

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Mack is above average: smart, competent, independent man and loving father. And his world is good.

 

I enjoyed your thoughts on this chapter, Dutch. Yes, Young portrays Mack as someone whose world is good, perhaps as a modern analogy to Job. Despite what some Christians claim, the Bible does say, in some passages, that the righteous will prosper and that the wicked will suffer. But then we have passages like those found in Job where humans seem to be little more than pawns in a chess game between God and Satan. Job is one of the books of the Bible that I simply don't understand. In Job, God seems to think that the principle of giving Job two children back for the one he lost is equitable, just. I feel like Mack, shaking my fist towards heaven, "You stupid idiot, do You think giving me two children in the future could possibly remove the pain of losing one child now? Do You think that I count children like You count hairs on the head?"

 

My wife and I lost two children to miscarriage. And it was inevitable that people would say to us, "Don't worry, you are young, you can have more." While they are technically/scientifically correct, they didn't seem to understand that we saw our pregnacies as a gift from God and we couldn't understand why God would allow the pregnancies to self-abort. We were already talking about names, room colors, colleges. :) What we discovered, perhaps like Mack, is that although our world can be good, it can go to sh!t so fast that it leaves one devastated, wondering where God is. Where is this all-seeing, protective deity who, according to the Bible, is not willing that ANY should perish. And yet, thousands of children die from hunger and cancer in our world everyday.

 

But like you, I am also touched and stirred by redemptive stories, by stories of sacrifice (not to appease a deity's anger but to give one's life for another). There is something about those stories that moves us and tells us that we have the capability to grow as a species beyond just the need for self-survival. It is just that the "mechanics" of how these "sacrifices" work don't often add up, at least for me. How does blood wash away sin? The Bible doesn't explain this. Maybe our best redemption stories, like that of the Indian princess, can only be told, not explained. Missy wants an explanation. Bright child. Good questions, yes. But questions that are, IMO, unanswerable. Christians say that someday, in the great by-and-by, all will be revealed, we will finally get our questions answered. I doubt it. If God can't answer the question of theodicy NOW, then there is no reason to expect that he will answer it LATER.

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I love the issues this book brings up! Job? Satan? Universalism?

 

Bill, as far as Job goes, I think it represents a change to the traditional Jewish thought that people get what they deserve from God. People used to be very judgmental of others, saying -- he got sick because he sinned or (even) because his grandfather was a sinner. I don't think we are pawns in a game between God and Satan. I think God is with us in trials, crying His eyes out with us. I do think the book of Job makes a healthy point that we should not abandon God in our times of suffering. I'm so sorry about your lost babies, and that people were so insensitive in their remarks to you.

 

I loved the point about the princess' sacrifice pointing to universal salvation. I can't see logical connection, either, about how blood sacrifice appeases gods. However, someone who is willing to "lay down His life for His friends" is inspirational to me at the core. I believe the Jewish customs of animal sacrifice would have made it easier for people of the time to accept Jesus as the ultimate substitutionary sacrifice - God's son. But it doesn't work for me now. I look at it as God's way to communicate to people of that time that they could be forgiven no matter how badly they had messed up. The truth I take from the story is that God is always looking to take us back, even if humans reject us.

 

Dutch, your observation about the strength and depth of the Phillips family and their belief in God was wonderful! That helps us understand that life can sidetrack even the most ardent believer. I really appreciated your Bible verse references, too. I'm partial to the one in Romans.

 

I agree that "holy ground" is what we make of it. Waterfalls are indeed awe-inspiring, as I found out when I visited Yosemite this summer. Did you make it to Multnomah before they closed the path into the cabe behind the falls, Bill? As an aside, my dad worked on silly-scopes for HP at the same time :)

 

The only thing I can add to Chapter 2 discussion right now is that Mack's first thought about why he didn't tell Nan about the note was to protect her:

"if it turned out to be some kind of cruel joke."

 

Thanks for the insights!

Janet

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Did you make it to Multnomah before they closed the path into the cabe behind the falls, Bill?

 

No, Janet, it was closed even when I was there ('88-'92).

 

As an aside, my dad worked on silly-scopes for HP at the same time :)

 

Cool! I almost went to work for them! Tek called me and hired me 1 week before HP called me. They are both quite different companies now from what they used to be, though.

 

The only thing I can add to Chapter 2 discussion right now is that Mack's first thought about why he didn't tell Nan about the note was to protect her:

"if it turned out to be some kind of cruel joke."

 

Yes, that is interesting. It's been a while since I've read the book, but I tended to think of Nan as the "stronger" one. Of course, this is fiction. Real parents would both be devasted by the events of the book, but men and women deal with it differently. But I appreciate that Young portrays Mack as sensitive, as able to cry, as taking his suffering seriously enough to even give it a name. Men in the past were stereotyped as taking suffering as "nothing to it" -- macho. Not Mack, at least not overall. He feels this from his gut. And Young makes us feel it too. Maybe that is why I...("enjoyed" is not the right word)...appreciated this book: It doesn't really answer MY own questions of why, but it does encourage me to have the freedom to ask them. And, in some strange way, the freedom to ask can even be healing.

 

Thanks for the insights!

Janet

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Been spending time getting my mind around packing and moving. A few more comments about topics in this wonderful discussion.

 

Bill

How does blood wash away sin?

In the baptism of the devotee, crowned with gold and wreathed with fillets, descended into a pit, the mouth of which as covered with a wooden grating. A bull, adorned with garlands of flowers, its forehead glittering with gold leaf, was then driven on to the grating and there stabbed to death with a consecrated spear, Its hot reeking blood poured into torrents through the apertures, and was received with devout eagerness by the worshipper on every part of his person and garments until he emerged from the pit, drench, dripping, and scarlet from head to foot, to receive homage , the adoration of his fellows as one who had been born again to eternal life and had washed his sins away in sins in the blood of the bull.

Classical Mythology By Mark P. O. Morford, Robert J. Lenardon

 

Raised in the Presbyterian church I was not indoctrinated in "blood of the Lamb" imagery and dogma. I wish sometimes that we could just say that "washed in the blood" is part of the area's mythic culture and a syncretism which can easily be jettisoned from Christianity - at least mine.

 

Christians say that someday, in the great by-and-by, all will be revealed, we will finally get our questions answered. I doubt it. If God can't answer the question of theodicy NOW, then there is no reason to expect that he will answer it LATER.

My son is keeping his list of questions for later. Like Job I think the answer to the problem of theodicy is that God can neither cause nor prevent harm. God doesn't choose not to intervene. God can't intervene. Probably I should add "without our agency" but I haven't figured out the words with which to explain that.

 

Janet

However, someone who is willing to "lay down His life for His friends" is inspirational to me at the core.

I think laying down one's life for one's friends is healthy also. One of the first suggestions to one who is depressed is to go help someone.

 

I'm ready for c.3.

 

 

Dutch

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Raised in the Presbyterian church I was not indoctrinated in "blood of the Lamb" imagery and dogma. I wish sometimes that we could just say that "washed in the blood" is part of the area's mythic culture and a syncretism which can easily be jettisoned from Christianity - at least mine.

 

I often feel the same, Dutch. I have an aunt who wants nothing to do with Christianity because, from her perspective, it is a religion centered around a human sacrifice to an angry deity.

 

 

Like Job I think the answer to the problem of theodicy is that God can neither cause nor prevent harm. God doesn't choose not to intervene. God can't intervene. Probably I should add "without our agency" but I haven't figured out the words with which to explain that.

 

Me, either. But I enjoy how your words stir my own thinking and imagination. I was raised in a very theistic form of Christianity where God was an interventionist, in fact, an all-powerful, omnipotent one. Because I still go to church with my wife who finds meaning and fulfillment in this sort of religion, I still endure the many prayer requests and prayers offered in faith in order to try to get God to "do something" about our human condition - whether it be sickness, comfort, loss of job, drug addiction, healed marriages and relationships, etc. While I certain sympathize with these human conditions, and while there are often "praise reports" of God's intervention in people's lives, I'm just very skeptical that God "works" that way. If I believed that way (and I used to), I would pray for the healing of the whole world -- with little visible results. I couldn't pray for God to heal my child without also praying for God to heal all children everywhere. :(

 

I would love to read a book or hear a sermon on the "weak" God. This book/sermon would approach the subject of theodicy from the viewpoint that love, in order to be love, simply cannot assert it's will from the outside. The "weak" God would not force people or situations from without. Rather, he would gently invite and motivate from within. He wouldn't "intervene" because intervention is a force from the outside. Rather, he would empower (in the best sense of the word) from within, not in order to see his will done, but in order that we, as co-creators, become God's cooperative presence in our world.

 

This book/sermon would not be popular. People generally just want God to fix things for them while leaving them essentially unchanged. But I suspect that it would be honest enough to cause people who really want to know God and others to look within for compassion instead of to without for deliverance.

 

Sorry about derailing the subject a bit. On to chapter 3!

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Bill,

I started to object to your post, when you were saying that God doesn't do anything about our human condition. But, then as I read on, I loved what you were saying about God empowering us to change our condition. I think the sharing of prayer concerns is good, because it is a way to clarify what is most on our hearts and calls others to reach out in love toward those we are concerned about. Although, last week's sermon at my church noted the penchant Christians sometimes have about making the prayer concern time a chance for gossip. :)

 

Dutch,

I am not certain if I am on the same page with you or not about whether God has the power to intervene in our lives. I have set up camp with those who say God chooses not to intervene so that humans have free will and so that they learn that God does not go "Zap" but rather is present with us in times of trouble, offering energy, power, strength, wisdom, and love.

 

If you guys have anything interesting about Chapter 3, let me know. I personally thought the editor should have been more heavy handed with the cross out ink. I didn't think it furthered the plot to have the other families involved, and trying to keep people's names straight was confusing. I also wished he hadn't been quite so descriptive about the places, but then, I am an engineer :lol:

 

Janet

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Bill, Janet,

 

First - a co-worker has expressed an interest in joining the discussion. I just sent an email with the link. He may check in tonight. I have some thoughts about c. 3, nothing earth shaking, but I will wait until tomorrow.

 

Then

He wouldn't "intervene" because intervention is a force from the outside. Rather, he would empower (in the best sense of the word) from within, not in order to see his will done, but in order that we, as co-creators, become God's cooperative presence in our world.

 

This is similar to what I was thinking when I said God cannot act "without our agency." I have suggested elsewhere that "We are completed in God and God is completed in us." I think then if we leave the rest to mystery there is room for stories of visions and miracles as stories, perhaps, as long as we don't use these events to create dogma and doctrine. I do honor stories, holy stories of experience with the divine. I honor my own stories by not deconstructing them as I "mature". We share burdens and joys in our relationships. We are in relationship with God and so the suffering is shared.

 

:unsure:

 

Dutch

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My friend will be joining us soon. He said he just may read for awhile before he joins the conversation.

 

C.3 tells more about Mack and also helps anchor the story in reality. Other stories do this also prior to the main event. Perhaps this is too long?

 

Mack notes that he is naive about the world. Curious, because the Foreword says of Mack:

13 too young to be all grown up...adapted quickly

working overseas

armed conflict over seas

seminary in Australia

 

Mack is experienced .. and naive.

 

Young seems to emphasize Mack's vulnerability and openness in this chapter: the joy and contentment he experiences in his family, his openness to the divine in nature -- and limited, guarded sharing of his feelings. He is uncomfortable with them. The stereotypical male, who is uncomfortable talking about his feelings.

 

When my father and mother were in counseling a letter from my dad says, "I have talked about feelings more in the last two days than in our whole damn marriage."

 

 

Dutch

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Dutch,

Thanks for the comments about Ch. 3. I agree that it provides background and some insight into Mack's family life and his personality/character.

 

I know several of my friends remarked to me that the book was difficult to get through in the beginning, so I think the detail was a bit too much and kind of off-plot. However, I think this chapter is good in that it shows that even a strong family, like Mack's, can crumble under severe strain. This chapter just made the Phillips kids and Mack become like friends to me.

 

Ch. 4?

 

Janet

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In Chapter 4 I see that the introduction of the two other couples in chapter 3 may help the narrative. At least Mack and Josh and Kate have some support. It isn't always so when tragedy strikes.

 

I appreciate in a small way the fear that a missing child brings. In her first year of high school, my daughter Annie, who had Down Syndrome, was upset by something at school and left campus. As fruitless searching on campus continued, the police were also called. About an hour after Annie went missing a patrol car spotted her a little less than a mile away. She had decided to go to a nearby elementary school where her daycare provider might be volunteering.

 

I was at work and didn't learn of the problem until it was over. Diane learned of it a earlier and so experienced the panic Mack does. For us the "What ifs" were "What if something very bad had happened?" We tried to find evidence that nothing sinister would be among the "What ifs'.

 

Another connection -

When Annie was having facial reconstruction surgery in San Diego and our two weeks ended up being 7 weeks I had chosen to read the novel, Byzantium, by Stephen Lawhead, without knowing that I would find such support in those difficult weeks. Several times I reread the last 60-100 pages.

 

Here's the passage that parallels Mack's experience and doubt:

 

“I expected God to honor his word. That, at least, if nothing else. I thought I could depend on the truth. But I have learned that there is no truth. The innocent are everywhere slaughtered—and they die pleading for God to save them, and death takes them away. Faith’s own guardians are inconstant liars, and Christ’s holy church is a nest of vipers; the emperor, God’s co-ruler on earth, is a vile unholy murderer.”

 

“I did not lose my faith. It was stolen from me. God abandoned me.”

 

Dutch

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CHAPTER 4:

 

Dutch, thanks for sharing your connection to the story. I'm sorry it evoked sad and scary memories. I temporarily lost my youngest son when he was 2 and I was SO frightened. Interesting how the story ties to Byzantium. I haven't read that.

 

I was originally thinking that the witness, Virgil, should have done something when he saw the guy slap Missy or push her down, but then, I have been in situations before where I have been unsure if a child needs help or not.

 

It was nice how much help Mack had in the search. I can relate to Mack's exhaustion by the emotions of the day, and what he would give for a do-over. I have never experienced something so terrible as this, but I have had some minor crises, and I thought this was an accurate description of what Mack might be feeling. Interesting that Mack relived memories of Missy as a toddler while contemplating her faith.

 

Missy was coloring the Multnomah Indian Princess when she was taken. I thought when I first read it, that wasn't a good foreshadowing. Interestingly, when I read the book to my boys (who were 12 and 14 at the time) my eldest remarked, "I'm sure it will all turn out OK in the end." They had never read books before where the ending was terrible. I reminded them of the Great Sadness that accompanies Mack in the present day so that they could prepare. I wondered if I was a bad mom reading it to them, but tonight my son, now 15, said "I LOVED that book!"

 

It was a good point on page 59 of my book that "Even in such a world of relative morality, causing harm to a child is still considered absolutely wrong. PERIOD!"

 

The description of Kate post-tragedy is frighteningly accurate and similar to my brother in law right now. Aargh!

 

Then the fun part - some of the first theological musings by Mack. He has embraced a stoic, unfeeling faith instead of dealing with the rift in his relationship with God. I would contrast this with the father in the musical "Fiddler on the Roof," who asks God the tough questions. Which one are you more like?

 

Mack had been taught in seminary that "God had completely stopped any overt communication with moderns, pereferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred Scripture, properly interpreted of course." Is that what you were taught? How do you think God's voice is heard today (if you do?)

 

"Cloistered spirituality seemed to change nothing in the lives of the people he know, except maybe Nan. But she was special. God might really love her..." Do you see God making any difference in people's lives?

 

Awful chapter! :)

Janet

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