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Jesus Christ


McKenna

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Joseph,

Thanks for hanging in there with me. The plural was a typo.

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The notion that Jesus and Christ being the same person is explicitly confirmed by what is said in the New Testament, whether by Jesus himself or witnesses to Him.

 

The being one with the Father does not mean one person, but one in essence, power, quality, action, design, and agreement.

Christs prayer for His disciples to become one is in the same manner, not as one person but individuals united in essence, faith, action, etc.

 

It is uniform in the NT that Jesus Christ, in regard to the Godhead, is equal to the Father, but in regard to His manhood, inferior. He was wholly God and wholly man. God was made manifest in Jesus, which is what made Him the Christ. As the Messiah, He was delegated by the Father to deliver such doctrine and instruction as were in keeping with His mission.

 

As far as the revealing by the Spirit of God is concerned, Peter was the recipient of that very thing when he answered Jesus saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

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Hi David,

 

Perhaps I now see our difference in understanding. You seem to see Christ as a person while it seems to me that Christ is an anointing, as in being smeared together in God's Spirit or essence (from Greek) I realize much of the church system teaches 3 persons in God, but I do not share that understanding. God is One and not a person but Spirit.

 

Yes, that is correct, "being one with the Father does not mean one person, but one in essence, power, quality, action, design, and agreement. " or in other words Spirit. That is why we can also be transformed into the image of Christ. Jesus is the flesh man as is you and I. Christ is the Spirit as in essence of God. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:13 (KJV) The flesh man must die that Christ may be all in all.

 

Love.

Joseph

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Joseph nice post. Paul's letter to the Philippians supports your words.

 

1:18 What does it matter? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed. I rejoice in this, yes, and will rejoice. 1:19 For I know that this will turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will in no way be disappointed, but with all boldness, as always, now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life, or by death. 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don’t know what I will choose. 1:23 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 1:24 Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake. 1:25 Having this confidence, I know that I will remain, yes, and remain with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 1:26 that your rejoicing may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence with you again.

 

4:21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. 4:22 All the saints greet you, especially those who are of Caesar’s household. 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

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Dear Soma,

Beautiful text, but evidence is short in support of Joseph's argument: Jesus is not God incarnate, the Christ. Philipppians actually provides unequivical support to the contrary. 1:1-30, 2:1-11.

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Dear Joseph,

The understanding that Christ is one man: Jesus, is provided to us in simple terms: "Thou art the Christ".

To say He is not is simple denial of the only sources we have to declare Jesus at all, and the denial is specifically condemned in its very text.

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We are created in the image of God (no need to be transformed).

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Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) graphically supports the position I testify to; "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and to the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:..." The entirety of Ephesians would provide the more complete response.

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The understanding of three persons in the Trinity does not mean three humans, but the three personal-infinite beings of the triune God. Our conversations consistently include Jesus Christ, God's Spirit, and God the Father, the three persons, to explain and understand God. "Christ is the Spirit as in essence of God."

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(snip)

Dear Joseph,

The understanding that Christ is one man: Jesus, is provided to us in simple terms: "Thou art the Christ".

To say He is not is simple denial of the only sources we have to declare Jesus at all, and the denial is specifically condemned in its very text.

 

You could not know this unless it was revealed to you by the Father directly. Flesh and Blood can believe this but it is not known unless revealed directly. Never denied Jesus was the Christ foretold to come. Perhaps the only difference is in our understanding of the word "Christ". The word 'the' does not limit its meaning. I could say 'the Doctor' is at the door and that does not equate to one particular human = Doctor.

 

 

We are created in the image of God (no need to be transformed).
If that is so, then which creature is Paul speaking of.......

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:2 (KJV)

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The understanding of three persons in the Trinity does not mean three humans, but the three personal-infinite beings of the triune God. Our conversations consistently include Jesus Christ, God's Spirit, and God the Father, the three persons, to explain and understand God. "Christ is the Spirit as in essence of God."

 

It seems to me this is church doctrine. Perhaps it is in error.

 

Love in Christ,

Joseph

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Paul persecuted the followes of Jesus when he was alive, but converted when he knew Christ in the spirit.

 

Paul talks about the Holy Spirit and the role that it plays in peoples lives in Romans 8:3-17. His main point is that there is a very distinct difference between people of the flesh and people of the Spirit. If the Spirit of God is alive in a person, then that person is alive because they died to sin, they died to the flesh, they died to the physical world. They are spiritual. He says if the Spirit is not in a person then they are dead. The people of the Spirit and the people of the Flesh are completely opposite from one another, according to Paul in this passage. Joseph states this very clearly.

 

1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version)

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

 

Philippians 2 TNIV (Today's New International Version)

1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

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1) You could not know this unless it was revealed to you by the Father directly. Flesh and Blood can believe this but it is not known unless revealed directly. Never denied Jesus was the Christ foretold to come. Perhaps the only difference is in our understanding of the word "Christ". The word 'the' does not limit its meaning. I could say 'the Doctor' is at the door and that does not equate to one particular human = Doctor.

2) If that is so, then which creature is Paul speaking of.......

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:2 (KJV)

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3) It seems to me this is church doctrine. Perhaps it is in error.

 

Love in Christ,

Joseph

 

Joseph,

(I numbered the paragraphs 'cause the quotes wouldn't carry over.)

1) The difference in our understanding of "Christ" is significant.

Articles and nouns are also significant. If an unknown doctor was expected to arrive one would say 'a' doctor is on the way. When he arrives, 'the' doctor is here. You were expecting one. Once you know his name, it is Doctor Smith. A specific, particular, individual doctor.

A Messiah was expected. The Messiah/Christ arrives. It is Christ Jesus.

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2) Paul is not saying that our being 'in the image of God' is needing transformtion. We can't change that. But, in a nutshell, the transformation needed is to be renewed from a 'non-believer' to a 'believer'. The text continues but, that is essentially the meaning.

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3) This is Christian doctrine. One which sufficently communicates the answer, so others may understand. I used your quote as an example of how you have used all three names to be able to articulate the character of God. "Christ is the Spirit as in essence of God." While theoretically you may not agree they are the Trinity, it is impossible to live otherwise.

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Joseph,

(I numbered the paragraphs 'cause the quotes wouldn't carry over.)

1) The difference in our understanding of "Christ" is significant.

Articles and nouns are also significant. If an unknown doctor was expected to arrive one would say 'a' doctor is on the way. When he arrives, 'the' doctor is here. You were expecting one. Once you know his name, it is Doctor Smith. A specific, particular, individual doctor.

A Messiah was expected. The Messiah/Christ arrives. It is Christ Jesus.

 

No disagreement here. And Messiah Jesus did arrive and manifested Christ. You can do the same.

 

2) Paul is not saying that our being 'in the image of God' is needing transformtion. We can't change that. But, in a nutshell, the transformation needed is to be renewed from a 'non-believer' to a 'believer'. The text continues but, that is essentially the meaning.
If that is what you believe that is ok with me yet it seems to me your conclusion is in error as he was speaking to believers, not unbelievers and it is the old creature which is transformed into the new. Thats why Paul said "I die daily". It is a transformation in which the saints are perfected. He himself admitted to not having yet reached the mark. Yet he strived daily that Christ would be formed in him. And to the saints at Galatia he wrote .. "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, Gal 4:19 (KJV) It is a process, a transformation of the creature called David.

 

3) This is Christian doctrine. One which sufficently communicates the answer, so others may understand. I used your quote as an example of how you have used all three names to be able to articulate the character of God. "Christ is the Spirit as in essence of God." While theoretically you may not agree they are the Trinity, it is impossible to live otherwise.

 

Perhaps the point I make is that there are not 3 persons in God. And that Christ is not a person as used in this ...

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Col 1:27 (KJV)

This is not the person of Christ. This is not the man Jesus. Jesus was the Christ foretold to come but Christ is not a person. This is the mystery. This is your hope of God's presence (glory). This is an anointing, a smearing together of you with God as in connection, direct contact just as Jesus did. Not that God wasn't there all the time but a direct realization by the creature you now identify with that your essence is found in God. Again, God is not a person. Christ is not a person but used as a title in the case of Jesus. Hope this helps clarify things. Unless you have questions I have nothing else I am able to add at this time.

 

Love in Christ,

Joseph

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No disagreement here. And Messiah Jesus did arrive and manifested Christ. You can do the same.

 

If that is what you believe that is ok with me yet it seems to me your conclusion is in error as he was speaking to believers, not unbelievers and it is the old creature which is transformed into the new. Thats why Paul said "I die daily". It is a transformation in which the saints are perfected. He himself admitted to not having yet reached the mark. Yet he strived daily that Christ would be formed in him. And to the saints at Galatia he wrote .. "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, Gal 4:19 (KJV) It is a process, a transformation of the creature called David.

Perhaps the point I make is that there are not 3 persons in God. And that Christ is not a person as used in this ...

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Col 1:27 (KJV)

This is not the person of Christ. This is not the man Jesus. Jesus was the Christ foretold to come but Christ is not a person. This is the mystery. This is your hope of God's presence (glory). This is an anointing, a smearing together of you with God as in connection, direct contact just as Jesus did. Not that God wasn't there all the time but a direct realization by the creature you now identify with that your essence is found in God. Again, God is not a person. Christ is not a person but used as a title in the case of Jesus. Hope this helps clarify things. Unless you have questions I have nothing else I am able to add at this time.

 

Love in Christ,

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

Jesus is described as the physical manifestation/incarnation of God and His Spirit (law and righteousness).

What is said to have been manifested in us is the evidence to display who Jesus is, the begotten Son of God, the Christ, Savior of Man, God incarnate. Rom 1:19.

 

It is abundantly clear at this point that opposing dogma cannot fathom that Jesus is the Christ (Jesus=Christ). As a result, to say Christ is not the man Jesus, it is the rejection attributed to the liar in 1 John 2:22-24.

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Because progressive dogma denies the diety of Jesus, the Trinity becomes even more unthinkable, though even the liberals cannot speak concerning the character of God without having to use all three names.

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As far as 'renewing' is concerned: Of course Paul was speaking to believers. Our image being in the image of God cannot be transformed, but that is why we should treat all men in the way we wish to be treated. It is our fallen human nature (creature) that is in need of transformation, but not of ourselves, but by faith which is the gift of God.

Again, progressive dogma does not tolerate original sin so even the need of a transformation of our minds is rather inexplicable.

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Therefore no apparent need for Jesus is really required for the task of a ministry and sacrifice. There would be no authority behind the name, since He is not the man Christ, but just another man with a label, some poor martyr, who just happened to make good speeches. It makes no difference.

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It is curious the progressive believers have a desire to identify with Christianity and yet be so voracious in the effort to dominate and dismember it at the same time. Sounds like the problem many church congregations have had for a long time, just on a bigger scale.

 

 

God's grace to you,

 

Dk

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Hello David,

 

May God richly bless you through Christ in which is hid all knowledge and understanding. This is my prayer for you.

Seek not that which is formless in form identitiy and you will need not that any man teach you of the things of God.

 

Love in Christ,

Joseph

 

PS Thanks for your kind comments Soma.

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