Justice And Grace

[tariki]

What would others see to be the relationship between "Justice" and "Grace"?

 

Just to offer a few thoughts of my own.....

 

Justice seems to me to be associated with Time, Grace with Eternity. And in Time, justice seems to be involved - and finds its limits - within the possibility of forgiveness and reconciliation between human beings.

 

But these are just first thoughts.

 

Thank you.

[tariki]

Just a little bit of a ramble to try to get "lift off".........

 

I tend to drift around a few forums engaging in various debates, and starting a few of my own when something crops up. Just lately I have had a few exchanges with Conservative/Fundamentalist Christians who - unfortunately from my own perspective! - seem over preoccupied with proclamations of damnation/hell and so forth. It is "done and dusted" for me that the existence of an eternal hell is incompatible with faith in God. Though I am very moveable on certain things I think it would be safe to say that I am immovable on that! Yet I do seek to take on board whatever is said that has some sort of true significance behind it. One of these things has been the claim made regarding the word justice. i.e. That God is "holy" and as such must demand "justice" for sins committed. This is all a far cry from the oya-sama I myself relate to as all-embracing and infinite love, yet I see the significance of the demand for justice. I think it would be true to say that we have an instinctive sense of "justice" - and the need for it - within us. To look around this world and see the crimes/acts committed in it, I do feel often that some price has to be paid. (I realise that for Christians this would involve the "atonement" - however understood, while in Buddhism it is the concept of karma that addresses the issue)

 

Yet in many ways the concept of "justice" does seem to cut across the reality of Grace, which for me is the Heart of Reality-as-is.

 

When I spoke of the reconciliation between human beings my meaning is simply that when we reach a point of mutual forgiveness and understanding with those who have wronged us - and those we have wronged - than it seems to me that the idea of "demanding" justice becomes redundant. And why it has always seemed to me that the idea of an eventual "reconciliation of all things in Christ" is one of the grandest conceptions of the Christian Faith. And that only such - i.e. "all things" - is compatible with the fullest expression of Grace. Only then does grace become truly "amazing"!

 

All manner of thing shall be well

When the tongues of flame are in-folded

Into the crowned knot of fire

And the fire and the rose are one

 

........to wax lyrical, as is my wont!

 

But how do other see this issue? Will "justice" reign eternally? Will some have to exist eternally alienated from the true Heart of Reality in order to witness to the "holiness" and "justice" of God, while others - saved by grace - witness to "his" mercy? Or is "justice" only of time, not of eternity?

 

Well, I have rambled............

[JosephM]

What would others see to be the relationship between "Justice" and "Grace"?

 

Just to offer a few thoughts of my own.....

 

Justice seems to me to be associated with Time, Grace with Eternity. And in Time, justice seems to be involved - and finds its limits - within the possibility of forgiveness and reconciliation between human beings.

 

But these are just first thoughts.

 

Thank you.

 

Greetings Derek,

 

It seems to me that "justice" is merely an innate function in this self regulating universe. Justice, per se, is not founded on a defined belief system but rather a self defined reality created by thoughts. Indeed, it is associated with time.

 

Grace on the otherhand is founded in truth outside of time and in essence bridges the false idea of separateness.

 

Just a few words on the subject.....

 

JM

[Quaker Way]

Grace is the spiritual act of undeserved forgiveness by God...Justice is the social equivalent extended to one another here on earth.

[mystictrek]

In the work I am doing on understanding heavenly characteristics, I consider justice one of the nine essentials. I have some ideas about each of the nine heavenly attributes at http://www.abundancetrek.com/heavenlyattributes

 

abundance

joy

wisdom

beauty

love

truth

peace

justice

freedom

 

Grace is the Unconditional, Unlimited, Uniting Love which connects us to each other intimately, intricately and infinitely in a mysterious, miraculous and marvellous way.

[tariki]

mystictrek,

 

Thanks! I took a quick peep at your "justice" entry, and the very first sentence............"justice means that everything is just as it is supposed to be" provides my own mind with various links, understandings and reconciliations.

 

[Bobd]

Just a little bit of a ramble to try to get "lift off".........

 

 

When I spoke of the reconciliation between human beings my meaning is simply that when we reach a point of mutual forgiveness and understanding with those who have wronged us - and those we have wronged - than it seems to me that the idea of "demanding" justice becomes redundant. And why it has always seemed to me that the idea of an eventual "reconciliation of all things in Christ" is one of the grandest conceptions of the Christian Faith. And that only such - i.e. "all things" - is compatible with the fullest expression of Grace. Only then does grace become truly "amazing"!

 

But how do other see this issue? Will "justice" reign eternally? Will some have to exist eternally alienated from the true Heart of Reality in order to witness to the "holiness" and "justice" of God, while others - saved by grace - witness to "his" mercy? Or is "justice" only of time, not of eternity?

 

Well said Tariki! One can make the argument that the Hebrew word mishpat actually means 'responsibility' 'relaible' or 'judgment' and has been misinterpreted as meaning 'justice'. If you read through the Old Testament and substitute the word 'justice' with 'responsible', 'reliable' or 'judgment' in their appropriate spots, it tells a different story. In fact, the message that is revealed tends to be more compatable with the teachings of Jesus.

 

In the parable of the 99 Sheep, I see the sheep who is lost as an offender who commits offenses against others. The teaching of this parable suggests that we should make every effort to seek out and identify the problems within this offender and bring him back into the fold, rather than throw him in jail and throw away the key. How do we do this? We follow a program of detaining offenders, forgiving them, but not letting them go free, and rehabilitating them with the use of Psychiatrists, Psycholigists and social workers as long as it takes to get them back into the fold. It is the responsibliity of society to rehabilitate offenders, not to put them on trial and punish them for their "evil" deeds. Grace is forgiveness with a program of wisdom that produces a change in behvaiour to make offenders more compatable and loving in their relationships with others. This concept can also be applied on a macro scale when political parties or whole countries are offending others. However, it is a lot tougher to invoke. Grace, in forgiveness, love and tolerance of other faiths, beliefs, races and cultures is also inherent in "the anointed". "The anointed" or "Christ" is one who has resurrected himself or herself above the death inherited when eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Jesus is not the only one who is the Christ. He is only the first who is resurrected from death - the death we experience from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. All you have to do is stop eating from it and you will become one with the Christ in eternity.

 

BobD

[JosephM]

Just a little bit of a ramble to try to get "lift off".........

 

(snip)

 

But how do other see this issue? Will "justice" reign eternally? Will some have to exist eternally alienated from the true Heart of Reality in order to witness to the "holiness" and "justice" of God, while others - saved by grace - witness to "his" mercy? Or is "justice" only of time, not of eternity?

 

No. No. Yes.

 

Ephes. 1:9-10

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: