davidk Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I understand what process theology may claim, I don't understand how it can be considered valid. Like Whitehead, it becomes more incoherent over time. It is nonsense to me and will probably continue to be implausable. In addition, I have been in L/P territory for a while, some members just seem averse to handling questions on doctrinal issues. Still, the point of the 'spinach' story is ignored: it was about some obtuse responses to my 'affrontary' to questiion and make affirmative statements. -- To my best recollection I haven't voiced any problems with Whitehead allowing for free will? Or free will at all? My problem is with his doctrine after his acknowledging God as the initial cause. He departed from Christianity, denying Christ. His denial in undisputed. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Gary, John 3:15-16, and Romans 8:28-34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I understand what process theology may claim, I don't understand how it can be considered valid. Like Whitehead, it becomes more incoherent over time. It is nonsense to me and will probably continue to be implausable. In addition, I have been in L/P territory for a while, some members just seem averse to handling questions on doctrinal issues. Still, the point of the 'spinach' story is ignored: it was about some obtuse responses to my 'affrontary' to questiion and make affirmative statements.-- To my best recollection I haven't voiced any problems with Whitehead allowing for free will? Or free will at all? My problem is with his doctrine after his acknowledging God as the initial cause. He departed from Christianity, denying Christ. His denial in undisputed. - He departed from Christianity, denying Christ. His denial is undisputed.- Hi Davidk, I have to ask for a clear explanation for the above quote, I read through your passages that you cut and pasted and I have to wonder if I'm missing something because the denial of Christ is ambiguous at best in my estimation and at worst I know a few people who are more 'Christ like' who do deny the existence of Jesus the Christ. with that said I understand that in the athiest community and the community looking for scientific proof that Jesus the Christ actually existed they have come up nill, empty handed. This will open up the discussion to have you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ actually existed the question is now to you to prove or deny that Jesus the Christ actually existed, are you or is anyone, up to the challenge to put to rest once and for all the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? Can you prove that GOD exists? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really interested in what and how you can prove what can not be known other than by faith?) (How could I prove the existence of GOD and the knowledge of GOD to anyone of you?) You would have to know me, beyond what you read, you would have to trust that my picture is not a forgery, you would have to be nourished by my words, you would think of me in song, the world would become different if you believe that I exist and that if I exist so does GOD. I've had some very interesting conversations lately, what would you say to a soldier if you had his ear that the soldier would listen to you? Is the soldier sworn to follow the Commander in Chief or to defend the Constitution of the United States? Assuming that you are an American talking to an American Soldier... Should a lying thief be prosecuted? Have you heard about the addendum to the Grasshopper and the Ant? I'm asking a lot of questions because you are in the hot seat now, you have brought this discussion right back to the question or thread that I created a little while back, the one about So you think you are a Christian? My point being that not one of us should or can judge another person as to if they are or will be a Christian where we will meet their soul in heaven and yet the children of GOD will be known by their fruits, (their gifts). This infers that while many will be going to heaven many will not and we will know them by their gifts. I would say that just denying the existence of Jesus the Christ is not enough to prevent a soul from going to heaven, I'm thinking that the real test would be to know the person's real spirit their morality, their ability to repent and be right before GOD. This takes us right back to the Grasshopper and the Ant and Respect. What is respect? Is respect Love? Is Love respect? Back to Universal Truths... What is Love? Where is the Love of GOD? I Love food for thought and I love to offer food for thought... P.S. If you can prove GOD exists, I'm sure that the benefit will be more than rewarding as I have friends that are Agnostic and on a quest for truth, kind of a gnosticquest where I would love to share your proof that I haven't been able to provide myself and yes I recognize my own limitations as an earthling or human or homosapien... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Nice, those are nice Bible verses but they are not proof that Jesus existed... So how did you know my question before I posted? Btw... They really tore up the text of the Bible the thing I'm looking for is something on the lines that the Romans have records of the Crucifixion or some other proof outside of the Bible. I often thought that the exchange of Barabas for Jesus would be some sort of proof, but dead ends lead to more dead ends, I'm kind of scratching my head and trying to think of something anything, this Gnosticquest guy is good, he's got a handle on the Dead Sea Scrolls... Again I find that if the records of the existence of Jesus were expunged then the actual proof that Jesus existed is a blank slate and we have to look in another place. I look into my heart to find Jesus the Christ... GOD use me as your tool. (How is that for a simple prayer?) Kinda like Jabez... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 He departed from Christianity, denying Christ. His denial in undisputed.- Incorrect, you must not have read Process and Reality, (Whitehead, 1929, p. 343). When you do, you might wish to rejoin the discussion. His statement about the "Galilean origin of Christianity" is clear and unambiguous. It is always better to read the source than opinions about the source. When you have done so, I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue. Until then ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 davidk, To put this in the simplest form, your 'doctrinal issues' are particulars that, when radicalized, do not fit the universals found in the life and teachings of Jesus. Whitehead understood this, you appear to be uncertain. minsocal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Incorrect, you must not have read Process and Reality, (Whitehead, 1929, p. 343). When you do, you might wish to rejoin the discussion. His statement about the "Galilean origin of Christianity" is clear and unambiguous. It is always better to read the source than opinions about the source. When you have done so, I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue. Until then ... Is the following the Whitehead statement you are referencing concerning his thoughts on God in the image of an imperial ruler, God in the image of a personification of moral energy, God in the image of an ultimate philosophical principle? "There is, however, in the Galilean origin of Christianity yet another suggestion which does not fit very well with any of the three main strands of thought. It does not emphasize the ruling Caesar, or the ruthless moralist, or the unmoved mover. It dwells upon the tender elements in the world, which slowly and in quietness operate by love; and it finds purpose in the present immediacy of a kingdom not of this world. Love neither rules, nor is it unmoved, also it is a little oblivious as to morals. It does no look to the future, for it finds its own reward in the immediate present." Well OK, Whitehead is a theist, about which I certainly have no arguement. It lacks any evidence to the contrary, demonstrating neither a faith in or an understanding of the nature of Jesus Christ. If it is not the statement, quote the one you intended to mean. -- To put this in the simplest form, your 'doctrinal issues' are particulars that, when radicalized, do not fit the universals found in the life and teachings of Jesus. Whitehead understood this, you appear to be uncertain. Which of my doctrinal issues is it in particular that Whitehead understands, and which universal does he say it does not fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Incorrect, you must not have read Process and Reality, (Whitehead, 1929, p. 343). When you do, you might wish to rejoin the discussion. His statement about the "Galilean origin of Christianity" is clear and unambiguous. It is always better to read the source than opinions about the source. When you have done so, I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue. Until then ... Did you miss the fact entirely that I had quoted Whitehead yesterday, as well as his faithful? Until then...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Fellow earthling; Show your friends the evidential documentaion beginning with Genesis 1:1. Maybe they'll get the picture, maybe not. - Unless you know Jesus is Lord, you won't find Him in your heart. I'm sure God hears your prayer. Drop everything and He'll answer it. By the way He's not asking you to be perfect. Afterall, He knows your not. That's why He sent His Son for you. Give it your best shot, failure can't keep you away from Him. Our Father in Heaven, use Gary as your tool! Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I hope to be used as a good tool for good work... A defender of the constitution, a reflection of Love... I do not follow any leader that does not defend the constitution. What of the Bible? What of the gender you place on your god? We could talk of the origins of both (The Bible and the Universe) the history that we know of each and we could see two beliefs. Is there no bridge? There is always Love, GOD You have yet to reveal your god to me? You have yet to come to know my GOD? Yet there is only one GOD, and the two paths will become one when the eyes are open and the ears hear clearly, the mind will have vision to know... Of course Whitehead could have been wrong that Love doesn't know Morals because true love knows to love in truth. What then is betrayal? A lie usually steals something... (If not immediately it will in the future) Is there such a thing as a newly made liar? I have a bit of a story to share that involves loving a person who was hard to love and she was empowered to hate me, and our relationship was then made very toxic... Two divergent paths that can not be bridged. What is a man to do? Love requires respect. There are many battles that need to be resolved and many are not even worth fighting. What is more important? Gay Rights Human Rights and the Constitution The Gender of GOD Life eternal The origins of scripture The origins of the universe Does GOD exist Are people good and moral Did Jesus exist What is in the heart knows the most important thing is Love I've been chastized for being a witness which should be appalling and absurd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Is the following the Whitehead statement you are referencing concerning his thoughts on God in the image of an imperial ruler, God in the image of a personification of moral energy, God in the image of an ultimate philosophical principle?"There is, however, in the Galilean origin of Christianity yet another suggestion which does not fit very well with any of the three main strands of thought. It does not emphasize the ruling Caesar, or the ruthless moralist, or the unmoved mover. It dwells upon the tender elements in the world, which slowly and in quietness operate by love; and it finds purpose in the present immediacy of a kingdom not of this world. Love neither rules, nor is it unmoved, also it is a little oblivious as to morals. It does no look to the future, for it finds its own reward in the immediate present." Well OK, Whitehead is a theist, about which I certainly have no arguement. It lacks any evidence to the contrary, demonstrating neither a faith in or an understanding of the nature of Jesus Christ. If it is not the statement, quote the one you intended to mean. -- Which of my doctrinal issues is it in particular that Whitehead understands, and which universal does he say it does not fit? I was not referring to your doctrinal issues as such, but to the subject in general. I do not intend to debate your doctrinial issues, here or anywhere else. If you seek to impose your doctines on the interpretation of what I or anyone else have to say here you are not likely to succeed. In the future, if your issue is doctrinal, you will get no reply from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 We could talk of the origins of both (The Bible and the Universe) the history that we know of each and we could see two beliefs. Is there no bridge? This is incredibly observant. It would be hard over emphasize the importance of the scope of this question. We need to see clearly how far reaching the practical consequences are when we properly understand the history of the movements of thought and how it divided into these two "beliefs". -- In the Bible we have grace, spiritual love, freedom, mans soul, God the creator, heavenly things, the unseen and its influence on the earth, morals, significance, unity. In the universe we have nature, man, machine (no freedom or significance), sensual love, diversity. We live in the real-physical universe. We can see the tree, feel it, smell it, study it, hug it if we choose. We observe man, he thinks, laughs, creates, loves. It's all something we have first hand knowledge of. There is a divide! But history doesn't always show that divide in mans thought. It began with the thoughts of a man who changed the world of in a very real way: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). His view of nature and grace was not of a discontinuity between the two, he actually had a concept of unity. GRACE (the uppper story) ---------------------- NATURE (the lower story) However, from that day on, for years, a constant struggle ensued for that unity between the two hoping that rationality would say something about both. ........ Gary, Time is short for me now, (relatives and a new baby are in town) so let me leave you with the title of a book that I basically have been trying to summarizei on this particular line of of thought. It is much more thorough than I could ever provide in this format. "Escape from Reason", Francis A. Schaeffer, Inter-varsity fellowship, England, 1968. Check him out online or through Crossway Books, in Wheaton , IL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Hi Davidk, I'm pleased that you caught that, while much was placed into that post, I'll share with you a couple of thoughts the first was frivolous while the rest were very important do you know why? Think of it this way, to deny is a great sin yes/no? (Some claim that it is the greatest) as you put your thoughts together I would ask you to consider if the betrayal of GOD is not the greatest? What is the fundamental teachings? What are some of the flaws to the fundamental teachings? Line of thought goes like this: Inheritence Love Marriage Gifts Respect GOD (GOD, Jesus, Life) Life Death People Procreation Earth Universe If we apply the scientific theory that we have created along with universal laws then all things should be united. (question) Why are they not? Now take out the Devil or Satan we haven't been discussing the existence of evil we are only talking GOD and People, Us (Male and Female) Remember english class I think that we eluded to this somewhere else here in these threads, Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature and for Us believers Man and GOD vs. Nature... Why write it that way? (Honestly I can't tell you... ) What I can say is that it is true any other way would be false. We should not have GOD vs. Man or Man vs. Nature and GOD the only way we can bridge the issue is to be working with GOD. Do you really think I should research the book and author you recommended? Of course family comes first and I know you will enjoy every precious minute with that little one, and the parents. I also would love that joy to be returned, I lost so much time with my children and more since the split in Mid-October... Blessed Be, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 GRACE (the uppper story) ---------------------- NATURE (the lower story) I should dedicate the next thoughts to the victims of all natural disasters and especially the most recent earthquake in China, for I mourn with all... The fall of the Schools and the fall of the walls, I was given a bit of a poem early in the process that went like this... When the rafters rock and the timbers shake I stand firm On My GOD's Grace And later my prayer and plea... I want my children back I could hear GOD say to me I want my children back I said to GOD I want my Children back May you always be blessed with Love (True Love), I too have things to do so until next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 About being perfect, I am perfectly created as a human being and that is no mistake... I'm perfect with the Love of Jesus in my heart, and I know how to appologize for my mistakes both to the one that I've offended and to GOD and GOD knows my heart is pure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 TGWB, I had also struggled through a divorce and lost a lot of precious time with my children that can never be made up. I phoned, I exercised visitation, I tried to never speak ill of their mother. I was often spoken of harshly in their home but I tried to never offer any rebuttals. It was difficult. It seemed a losing battle. The distance between us grew. When they moved away from home, I stayed in touch. They were reticent to the contacts. It took years of demonstrating unrequited love that they have finally understood and I now have wonderful loving relationships with them. While their realtionship with their mother has become strained, I insist they love and respect their mother no matter what. They are understanding why. -- For the survivors of China's earthquake: Our Heavenly Father, we are saddened by the loss of human life. And this is particularly devastaing. We pray that through your strength we can aid those in great need. Give us the desire to do your will. Amen. -- Some fundamentals (but not the most): The personal-infinite God: There is a chasm between God's infinity on one side and the finitenes of man, nature, animal, machine on the other. God stands alone on His side. He is, in His infinity, contrary to all else because He is infinite. He's the Creator, all else was created. He is infinite, all else is finite. Everything else is brought forth by creation. Only He is independent, all else is dependent. This is absolute. Therefore, concerning infinity, man is separated from God, as is the rest of the universe. But on this side of God being personal, the chasm is between man and nature, animal, machine. Why? This is because man was made in the image of God. So, therefore, on the side of a personal God the chasm is not between God and man, but between man and all the created else. We have the answer to man's being finite and yet personal (attributes and personality of man, distinguising him from non-man) as we observe in reality. on being infinite: God || man, nature, animal, machine on being personal: God, man || nature, animal, machine This is the Christian answer. -- I'd like to get back to the topic involving Aquinas' view of nature and grace followed by the thoughts of man about the "bridge" since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 I'd like to make a few more comments on other threads, sometimes all I get is one chance to comment once per day and with so much to add and so much to remove from the evil in the religious texts and what is sold by both clergy and media there is so little time with all I have to do... You can not bridge the fact that the Bible and other religious texts are full of contradictions. There are no two ways of looking at this fact, either GOD is pure and holy or GOD created evil... Now bridging the Man and GOD vs. nature as the only true scenario compared to Man vs. GOD and Nature Man and Nature vs. GOD Man can not vs. GOD Man and Nature can not challenge GOD GOD is greater GOD is omnipresent and omnipotent infinite like the universe and GOD is the Universe and Universal... To bridge Grace and Nature you only need GOD because Man is not required... A new world with or with out you it doesn't really matter, but to me I desire to live and I do not like living in a world alone... Why do abused people abuse other people even those that they love? Why is there evil in our world? Money, Jealousy and other Emotionally charged memories along with a good dose of inconsideration or disrespect. We need to come to terms with teaching Love we need to remove the evil that we pass from one generation to the next and that hatred begins and is learned from many sources including many religious texts. The pastor that demands a tithe The insurance company that takes and doesn't provide The hospital that is supposed to heal and causes harm The judge that violates peoples rights and the Constitution The police that don't tell the truth The politician that allows all sorts of crime to run rampant The media lacking bravery to expose corruption and criminal behavior without sensationalizing and making criminals into hero's... We have to reach out to he wounded and help all people heal while holding the culprits accountable for abusing our society... When speaking up and out about an issue is a crime then we know we are at the end of an era and it is time for change, real change in many things to make the world a better place we need to take a stand. We look to Jesus and worship creating a perpetual abuse upon the idea of needing someone to die for sin. We take our sights off of needing to follow the teachings of Love. The sin is in the religious institutions and I'm sure that Jesus would tell us to our faces just how wrong we have been. Take a collection for the poor, who will be helped? Teach the poor to work and the poor could have a chance to change their lot in life. Steal from your neighbor and all could soon be lost for you not only have taken possessions you have taken the dreams and hopes for a future that could have been, the civil rights of the victims are violated both by the judicial system and the criminals because corruption runs amok. p.s. Davidk you know music (right?) when writing in this format a repeat or coda should take you back to the first occurence, so many songs, so many questions so many thoughts to cherish to share. I'll see if there is more time later or as I wrote once before, until the next time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteBuffalo Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Hey! I made it in for two posts... Yeah! Here is the real issue to bridge grace and nature we have to define which nature needs to be bridged, in one case Davidk you brought into the equation machines and I would say that machines have no souls and can not think... They perform functions so machines are off topic or out of the equation as far as I am concerned, and yes I know some machines that are smarter than some people, but the machines still do not think... Some of the people don't think either but that is another discussion for another time... The 'nature' or the 'nature of man,' kind of like animal instinct how we react what drives us and the bridge between us and GOD... How do you know you are talking to a person who is telling the truth? How do you know anything about an event? You listen and see and you can hear the voice recorded, you learn and you think. Do you want to be the bully? Did Jesus have to die on the cross for your sins? Is there any other way for GOD to provide Grace? With a word the Earth was created and the word was? Kerrrpooowwwww!!! A big bang, a big explosion and the Earth cooled and evolved into the planet that we call home today, natural evolution I have no problem with that and a day for GOD is measured in GOD time or GOD's time I have no problem with that. Now for man to interpret that the world was created in one week that I have a problem with we are so full of ourselves to know the powers of GOD and not to understand, like the people killed when they said that you could travel around the planet and you wouldn't fall off the edge because our world is a sphere and it is not a flat plane where objects could fall off into the great abyss into the outer reaches of the infinite universe into oblivion that place where evil souls will be cast so far from the light of love that they could have accepted beginning on day 1 the day of their birth had love been taught from parent to child things could be different for so many that have fallen away or having been cast out from the presence of GOD. Who will be cast out? Were the ones that people cast out truly cast out of the presence of GOD for telling the truth? People make outcasts but is a person estranged from family ever estranged from GOD? A child of GOD is always a child of GOD... How does a person lose their status as a child of GOD? Back to betrayal, to betray Love is to betray GOD and to betray GOD is to take core teachings and violate the foundations that build a house. I could say that passing along family possessions from one generation to the next is a core teaching of the Bible and a real Christian should know and understand how this Love for one and all is specifically important from one generation to the next and so on... What is right and knowing to do what is right always is so important. Telling the truth about an event exposing the corruption and violations of a persons rights, we all have certain inalienable rights and they exist in writing in the Constitution of the United States of America in the Bill of Rights... Do not depart from the truth, the Bible should be true but it is flawed in many areas. So many contradictions exist in the religious texts of all religions, there is so much work to be done to make the world a better place. Back to the scenario of: Grace ______________ Man and Nature and the Nature of Man ===The Bridge is === GOD With a word you are forgiven the word is repent... Fix what you did wrong or sin the penalty for sin is not death but to be cast out... The victim should never become the outcast which is making the victim a victim again and again making those in the positions of authority also bullies along with the terrorists that set into motion the crime against any individual. The meek shall inherit the Earth... The poor shall be set free... The world is turning and changing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.