Blinded By Belief

[soma]

DavidK, You must hate your family, mother and father if you take the Bible's words literal. I feel I have a personal spiritual experience with the living Christ so I guess you are saying Christ is not God. If you think the Bible is saying hate your mother and father then you are in opposition to Christianity.

 

1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

 

Galatians 5:16 (KJV)

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

 

Dying to self everyday is what Paul spoke of often. He is saying walk in the "Spirit" and not in the "flesh" The Bible says in Galatians Chapter 5. The whole issue of dying to self is the

key to living a life in Christ. You don't seem to understand this so are in conflict with most here who drink from a deep well because you are living your ego life while people here try to die daily and live the life in Spirit.

 

DavidK you preach the gospel of sin, which shows the enslavement to sin. People who don't die to self daily, end up walking in the "flesh" and NOT the "Spirit." Listen to the advice people have given you over and over on this forum and learn to live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus this will make you free from sin, but you must die daily.

 

People tell you this over and over because they love you, but you have to change and walk in the Spirit to Christ.

[davidk]

soma,

 

Why would your having an experience with Jesus Christ mean I would not believe in Jesus' diety?

 

Jesus is to be taken literally in the context of what He teaches. Luke 14:26 cannot be taken out of the context which includes Matt 10:37. He's teaching us of the priorities of our relationships and possessions.

 

I preach the death we die to everyday is our life of constant effort to be autonomous from God, that is our sinful nature. That death is not annihilation for us, it is life. Who can seperate us from the love of Jesus Christ? In all things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loves us. Nothing, including death, is able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ. I am the telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit.

 

It is Buddhism teaching man's autonomy over God(s) that is the "gospel of sin".

---

minsocal,

 

Can a Buddhist or Muslim not speak of the things of Christianity? Why should I not be able to speak of the things they claim? I have not spoken against any man. But I am able to speak of false religions and poor philosophies. If you wish to refute what I say, that is expected in any dialogue, but do not stand on the sidelines and hurl insult.

[minsocal]

I think it was Joseph Campbell who said this, although I could be wrong. If you want to really know what a religion is all about, talk to those who serve. The humble nun, the dedicated volunteer, the local priest or pastor.

[davidk]

Someone else once said: Religion is never the problem; it's the people who use it.

[soma]

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

DavidK, If you would die daily then you would not believe in a diety. The small plastic Jesus that glows in the dark is nice, but that plastic will not stop the Flesh from sinning. Walk in the Spirit and not the Flesh and see that Christ is in us and that is the glory, not the plastic symbol. Drop the trifling concerns of life, die and serve the Lord Jesus with a willing mind, follow his example and stop worrying about sin and intellectual dogma. It is obvious you don't know Buddhism so stop putting it down. It is not serving Jesus or making Christianity any better. Die to the Flesh and sin and see that your relationship to sin is broken. Know Christianity and practice the example of Christ and you won't have the need to put down other religions. You will be serving your Lord 100 % of the time.

 

King James Bible John 12:26,

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

Dusting the plastic Jesus is a service, but I feel a deeper service is serving humanity and the Lord within.

 

American Standard Version Mark 12:30

and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.

[davidk]

Paul lives in the excercise of grace, yet that grace is not from himself, but from another. He contended that that His apostleship was genuine, not from any human authority, but from God.

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If there is no personal-infinite God, man is dead. Any concept of sin or love would be meaningless.

[minsocal]

Frankly, Paul was irrelevant to me until progressive scholars began to look at what Paul really could have authored and what appears to be attempts to discredit Paul in the Bible. This is a task progressives would take on, but others pass by for whatever reason.

[soma]

DavidK, Open the door to your heart and let God in then nothing will be meaningless.

[davidk]

DavidK, Open the door to your heart and let God in then nothing will be meaningless.

This is good, very good. This is your victory.

We must let God in so He can be within. God is He who gives true meaning to everything. We are not dead, and love really has a reason to exist.

[soma]

I feel God is already there waiting for us to realize that he loves us and will never leave. When we are silent, God speaks.

[JosephM]

This is good, very good. This is your victory.

We must let God in so He can be within. God is He who gives true meaning to everything. We are not dead, and love really has a reason to exist.

 

To All,,

 

It seems to me God is already within and has always been. Acknowledgement may not be there by the individual personality but personally I have no doubt of this. It seems to me that everything has meaning in itself by virtue of God's presence which is best described by linguistics as everywhere without exception and no where by virtue of the absence of location in Spirit. Perhaps this is a corrundum to the mind. It is my experience that Love doesn't need a reason to exist which is contrary to the statement quoted. It seema to me that all that can be said is that 'Love is.'

 

Love Joseph

[davidk]

To All,,

 

It seems to me God is already within and has always been. Acknowledgement may not be there by the individual personality but personally I have no doubt of this. It seems to me that everything has meaning in itself by virtue of God's presence which is best described by linguistics as everywhere without exception and no where by virtue of the absence of location in Spirit. Perhaps this is a corrundum to the mind. It is my experience that Love doesn't need a reason to exist which is contrary to the statement quoted. It seema to me that all that can be said is that 'Love is.'

 

Love Joseph

Is this your claim that love pre-exists God, or do think God is the first cause of everything, including love?

 

Soma says we must ask Him into our hearts. This means we are surrendering our heart to God's authority. I agree, we each must acknowledge God's autonomy over us, as should you. That is if you haven't already.

[JosephM]

Is this your claim that love pre-exists God, or do think God is the first cause of everything, including love?

 

Soma says we must ask Him into our hearts. This means we are surrendering our heart to God's authority. I agree, we each must acknowledge God's autonomy over us, as should you. That is if you haven't already.

 

Perhaps you missed the previous statement "God is Love". There is no separation nor pre-exist condition.

[soma]

I feel we are created in God’s image and called to know and love God through different proofs of His existence. Some people respond to authority, I don't I respond to love and yes logic, but because God's pure consciousness is beyond the material world and the mind, God's proofs are not in the sciences, but rather in the sense of converging and convincing arguments so love can remove the blinders that limit religious beliefs. Science explains the observations of God's creation and I feel it is true. In different ways human reason can come to know that there exists a reality, which is the first cause, the reason and the final end of all things, this pure consciousness most people call God. Throughout history up to the present day in different ways, men have given expression to God's pure consciousness in religious beliefs and behavior. These spiritual practices despite their uncertainties bring man to God and are universal, but they can be forgotten, overlooked or even rejected because even though we are created called to know and love God, it still takes great effort of the heart and mind to perfect one’s consciousness to know the soul. Even though men forget and reject God, God never ceases to love and call every man to seek Him in order to find peace and happiness because He is not far from each one of us even though he transcends all creatures. We live in pure consciousness, move and have our being in God so we must continually speak with all men, religions, philosophies and sciences about those things that exceed our understanding so we can grasp the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible and the ungraspable with our minds and representations. God is more than just an authority figure, but he is that also to bring those that need an authority to command them to love. Love will expand that person beyond authority, superiority and the blinders of belief to experience to pure being in pure consciousness.

[davidk]

Soma,

I love you and I agree that God is more than just an authority figure for logic and love. It is He that is the absolute authority.

I agree that despite the imperfection in man's religious uncertainties God can forgive man. But it is He that perfects us, not we. Being imperfect we cannot create perfection despite the great efforts of our heart and mind.

 

I must warn you that by saying you respond to logic looses much of its credibility when you say that we can grasp what is ungraspable.

 

One more observation in which I agree: "God never ceases to love and call every man to seek Him in order to find peace and happiness because He is not far from each one of us even though he transcends all creatures (creation)."

 

Dk

[soma]

I am sorry to say that the Christian authoritative, agenda has caused destruction, murder, abuse and war throughout history. The belief in an authoritarian God made people sacrifice innocent people and kill other innocent people. In religion and war, it's all about authority, obedience and control. Our God fearing country, which is Old Testament is turning people off to religion. This tyrannical Christian mentality comes out in a belief of a God commanding authority.

 

1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 1 & 2

I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don’t have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal. I may have the gift of prophecy, I may understand all secrets and know everything there is to know, and I may have faith so great that I can move mountains. But even with all this, if I don’t have love, I am nothing.

 

1 Corinthians chapter 13 verse 13

So these three things continue: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.

 

 

Logic is not bad, it is not sinful. Our logic points our mind in a direction above mere belief and authority to love, unity, and Spirit.

 

Galatians chapter 5 verse 22

But the fruit that the Spirit produces in a person’s life is love, joy, peace, etc...

 

Authoritarian Christians do horrible things without feeling bad because they feel they are sinners and can't help it. God will save them if they impose their beliefs on others no matter how horrible as long as they are trying to convert them to their authority.

 

I feel we need to examine our hearts every day with our minds and check our worship to make sure we aren't hurting others. Are we reading the Bible and praying to dominate others or to make ourselves better Christians? Do we love people who are not Christians? Do we serve these individuals or are we trying to force them to conform to some authority figure so we can be saved? We don't have to sacrifice anyone to authority to be saved, just love as Christ loved.

[davidk]

Dear Soma,

I don't doubt your sincerity, but in all honesty you must surely be bright enough to understand the difference between authoritarian and authoritative.

 

It is only by Gods absolute authority that we are convinced that love, joy, and peace truly have meaning.

 

Man will continue to practice authoritarian behavior; but, as in all of the past, it'll be without the authority of the Christian God.

 

Dk

[JosephM]

(snip)

It is only by Gods absolute authority that we are convinced that love, joy, and peace truly have meaning.

(snip)

Dk

 

OK Davidk,

Since I started this thread, I'm game.....

And exactly what is it you consider is God's absolute authority?

Joseph

[soma]

Christianity is the dynamic spiritual life of our Lord Jesus Christ showing us our soul. This creates the behavior to glorify God and man. Some Christians have attempted to force Christianity into the molds and structures of others through authoritarian means. I feel they desire authority and power and they use Jesus and religion to dominate others.

 

I believe God is absolute and all other absolutes come from our Absolute God. Some Christian groups have determined the absolutes of God absolutely and set to impose them on others, This is where the authority of God becomes the authoritarianism of religion. Because God is absolute, God is authoritative. But when anybody claims to be the designated means of God's authority and attempts to express it authoritatively and in a totalitarian way, you then have the authoritarianism in religion. This leads to Christian idolatry. People worshiping their man-made forms and models, their ideological idols formed in the cement of their rock hard inflexible minds.

 

"...every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." (Deuteronomy 12:31)

 

Christian authoritarianism attempts to suppress freedom of belief. In the 15th century, Spain’s Jews were ordered either to convert to Christianity or to flee the country. Those that remained were favorite targets of the Inquisition. There are too many examples to list. The un-Christian hatred of freedom of belief, and individual freedom in general extends to this day. In England, atheists who openly advocated their beliefs were jailed. Today in many parts of the United States there are laws that forbid atheists from serving on juries or from holding public office.

 

Many Christian groups want to combine religious and political authority creating a Christian government. This alarmed Thomas Jefferson, who said "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own". The authoritarian history of Christianity made it clear to Jefferson that liberty and democracy could only exist when religion remained separate from politics. Christian Supremacy is the idea that Christianity is superior to all other religions that Christians are superior to all non-Christians. In America, Christian Supremacy is and has been accompanied by White Supremacy as well. White Supremacists base their racism on Christian beliefs.

 

I do believe to demonstrate in our daily lives the rhythm and harmony that Jesus establishes, one needs to yield to the presence and authority of God. But at the present moment many authoritarian Christians have forgotten their relationship with God due to their interaction with the material world and because of this forgetfulness they face many problems and frustrations so I believe we need to reawaken our original God loving consciousness, then we will be happy. The real solution is not material, religious or political supremacy, but to get out of the material condition by becoming aware of Christ consciousness. It is imperative that we look at creation another way from the standpoint of Christ consciousness, rather than considering creation and life from a material perspective.

[davidk]

Soma,

In large part, you are correct, and much of what you say I had alluded to by saying, "Man will continue to practice authoritarian behavior; but, as in all of the past, it'll be without the authority of the Christian God."

 

For anyone to surmise a racsist doctrine from a Christian doctrine is a liar. The same as with Christian authoritarianism. Idolotry, in any form, cannot be considered Christian. Christian racist, Christian authoritarian, and Christian idolotry are all oxymorons. Christianity advocates liberty.

 

It is true that "(O)ne needs to yield to the presence and authority of God", "Because God is absolute, God is authoritative." What always leads to man's problems is his making anything autonomous to God.

---

And exactly what is it you consider is God's absolute authority?

Joseph

Over all else. He's the creator, all else is the created.

For example; if God says to love your neighbor is good, then to love your neighbor is good. God alone has the authority to say that. That is what gives "love your neighbor" meaning, because man alone does not have the authority whether to say it is good or not.

 

Dk

[soma]

God is present in all of his creation and present in all our knowing and our knowledge. Our communion with God affects our interpretation of the Bible.

 

Christians being slaves to sin, are not use to exercising self-control in such a way that they could respect others. God accepts us where we are and teaches us about doing the right thing as He heals us from the effects of sin. In the early stages of our spiritual journey, we are happy to be slaves of the living God, sometimes as slaves we start concentrating too much on the do’s and don’ts and lose sight of God Himself.

 

I feel God doesn't want us to continue being slaves? As we go deeper into our selves, we are invited to be God's friends, once we know the Father.

 

John 15:15 (King James Version)

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

God wants us to be so settled into the truth that we cannot be moved.

 

We must be able to think through all situations as if we had the mind of Christ in us, if we want to stop being a sinner and a slave.

 

1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

Differences of opinion are among the followers of Christ. We have no right to blame others, Christian or non-Christian as God is present in all creation as stated above. We have no right to despise our brothers and sisters as ignorant and superstitious. We can learn from everyone as God is present in them. The scrupulous Christians find fault with others as they usurp the place of God. They take upon themselves to judge the thoughts and intentions of others, which are out of our their view. They can't see behind another person's eyes. Christians often despise and condemn each other and non-Christians about doubtful matters that do not pertain to themselves. They have become slaves to words and not the Spirit of God. I don't feel we want to clone Christians, let everyman think and enjoy the thoughts that are present in God's pure consciousness according to the plans Our Lord has for that individual.

 

King James Version (KJV)

Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[davidk]

Good to see everyone back.

---

A different opinion:

 

Of course, man sins; but when man recognizes God's absolute authority over him and that Jesus is the visible God that brought the final message home to man (a spiritual rebirth), man is no longer a slave to sin, but righteousness.

 

Soma is correct when he says we sometimes get caught up in the minutiae of rules rather than the broader purpose of a relationship with God. God commands us to love Him and our neighbors. When we do we are being submissive to Him. Christians live to be obedient to God. If you wish to define that as slave, so be it.

 

However, Jesus taught in Soma's reference of Jn 15:15, which is actually only a part of the message in v. 12-15, that you must be obedient to Him to be considered His friend, and He will demonstrate what is the greatest love friends have for each other- that one will lay down his life in order to save his friends. Is it slavery to willfully serve God and friends?

 

If we refuse to submit to God and His command, God will still love us, but we will have not demonstrated any love nor respect toward Him and will rightfully suffer an eternal consequence.

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I believe the I Corinthians quote is also a little out of context. Having the mind of Christ is understood as Christians having the mind of Christ as it was fully revealed to us by the Spirit of God in the holy scriptures. (see v. 2-16)

 

Like Soma says, we should not despise the persons, but (I may be assuming a little here) rather the despicable behavior. Despising superstition and ignorance is not despising the person. On that note, the god is/in everything pantheism is an inadequate belief system of eastern religions which deny the evidence of an existent, independent, infinite-personal-creator God and the observable existent diversity of the individual and thus despises the person.

 

However, I wonder if that was only a disception. By saying we have no right to blame other persons, what explains the laying of blame on Christians for usurping God, finding faults, depising and condemning, who are blind and slaves to their own minds and not to God. Does he expect not to be liable to be called on this blaming of certain people, in direct contradiction to his decrying the practice!

 

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In Christianity, God is not in everything or everyone; for the world does not know Him and not everyone, despite the overwhelming evidence of His being, will receive Him.

 

On Rom 14; with it being involved in ceremonial issues, the relevance is unclear.

 

[soma]

Good to see everyone back.

---

On that note, the god is/in everything pantheism is an inadequate belief system of eastern religions which deny the evidence of an existent, independent, infinite-personal-creator God and the observable existent diversity of the individual and thus despises the person.

 

However, I wonder if that was only a disception. By saying we have no right to blame other persons, what explains the laying of blame on Christians for usurping God, finding faults, depising and condemning, who are blind and slaves to their own minds and not to God. Does he expect not to be liable to be called on this blaming of certain people, in direct contradiction to his decrying the practice!

 

---

In Christianity, God is not in everything or everyone; for the world does not know Him and not everyone, despite the overwhelming evidence of His being, will receive Him.

 

On Rom 14; with it being involved in ceremonial issues, the relevance is unclear.

 

 

"[God] is not far from each one of us 'for in him we live and move and have our being.'" Acts 17:27-28. In Paul's Epistle to the Colossians he states "Christ is all, and in all," Col. 3:11, It seems he is identifying the Christ principle as a cosmic presence or consciousness in all things.

 

I respect and admire those who see God everywhere, but at the same time can understand those who love God as the personality and infinite mind. One is having a personal experience with God everywhere and one is serving a transcendent authority. Each view is only a part of what our small minds can grasp, God is worshiped in both aspects. There is no right or wrong way to worship God that is only our need to be right so we say others are wrong. We can believe in something without thinking everyone else is an idiot. We can read the Bible and get different interpretations from the many different angles that life offers us if not then cloning would be more popular.

[minsocal]

Pantheisim is not all Eastern by any means, davidk. It reached a peak in Western thought beginning with Spinoza, a Jew who loved the teachings of Jesus.

[soma]

Minsocal, You are right, we have Christian Pantheisim. I have no problem with Eastern Pantheisim either because I feel the Bible supports it. God is God so why do Christians create strange gods before Him. Pantheisim explains a part of the picture that gives people a purpose to live a good life. As Christian let us praise the Lord and be concerned with our individual lives and if we are living up to our Christian values or just mouthing the words.