soma Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 DavidK, I paid you a complement. it is nice DavidK that you use Buddhist techniques for seeing God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Thank you soma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Except that Buddhism has no God. I hear men with white coats. Well, not the Buddhism I know. There is a difference between refusing to speculate about the nature of God and the denial of God. What (which) brand of Buddhism are you talking about? Please? Just like Christianity, all we want to know from you are what (which) Christian sects are Christian, and what (which) Buddhist sects are Buddhist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well, not the Buddhism I know. There is a difference between refusing to speculate about the nature of God and the denial of God. What (which) brand of Buddhism are you talking about? Please? Just like Christianity, all we want to know from you are what (which) Christian sects are Christian, and what (which) Buddhist sects are Buddhist? Please! What god(s) does Buddhism recognize as God? How do you not find Buddhism nontheistic? Buddha taught believing in a god(s) is not useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 DavidK are you saying believing in gods is useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Please! What god(s) does Buddhism recognize as God? How do you not find Buddhism nontheistic? Buddha taught believing in a god(s) is not useful? First of all, davidk, my partner of 20 some years is Buddhist. There are many levels of understanding involved in both Buddhism and Christianity. Both converge as understanding progresses to higher and higher levels. As Jung said, "West and East can never be divided". I will grant you that this statement is highly abstract, but it is a "truth" many Progressive Christians have realized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 First of all, davidk, my partner of 20 some years is Buddhist. There are many levels of understanding involved in both Buddhism and Christianity. Both converge as understanding progresses to higher and higher levels. As Jung said, "West and East can never be divided". I will grant you that this statement is highly abstract, but it is a "truth" many Progressive Christians have realized. I understand the empathy for a partners faith, and the subsequent sentimental effort for a compromise or a unification of them. I think you may have mistakenly thought your faiths, because you love your partner and want to be compassionate, can ultimately be the same. Please, do not be fooled. Christianity and Buddhism may have some ethical overlaps, but they do not ultimately meet. Christianity is God centered, Buddism is man centered with no need for God. They both can't be right. I can only urge that you keep asking questions and demand rational answers that are verifably true by what actually is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I understand the empathy for a partners faith, and the subsequent sentimental effort for a compromise or a unification of them. I think you may have mistakenly thought your faiths, because you love your partner and want to be compassionate, can ultimately be the same. Please, do not be fooled. Christianity and Buddhism may have some ethical overlaps, but they do not ultimately meet. Christianity is God centered, Buddism is man centered with no need for God. They both can't be right. I can only urge that you keep asking questions and demand rational answers that are verifably true by what actually is there. davidk, You have just violated a boundary where you do not belong. myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 DavidK, There are Christian Buddhist. They are good Christians who practice their faith and are better Christians because of Buddhism. Christian preachers capture and portray only a small portion of God. Limited by our mind and God's revelation to us. It is God's grace to have a different way of looking at life, suffering, and God. Buddhism is good and it shows us things that we haven't noticed before, things we have noticed but hadn't paid close attention to. This is a blessing, a renewed awareness of our awesome and loving God. International Standard Version (©2008) 'Let everyone listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Rev 3:13 Mark 4:9 (New International Version) "Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The word of God does not leave deep impressions on our minds, if our hearts are not disposed to receive it. Many Christians are hindered from their profiting from the Christian word of God, their abundance in the physical world keeps them from seeing the spirit in all things. It would be nice if Christians practiced what they preached instead of just repeating dogma without knowing it on a deep level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 DavidK, There are Christian Buddhist. They are good Christians who practice their faith and are better Christians because of Buddhism. Christian preachers capture and portray only a small portion of God. Limited by our mind and God's revelation to us. It is God's grace to have a different way of looking at life, suffering, and God. Buddhism is good and it shows us things that we haven't noticed before, things we have noticed but hadn't paid close attention to. This is a blessing, a renewed awareness of our awesome and loving God. International Standard Version (©2008) 'Let everyone listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Rev 3:13 Mark 4:9 (New International Version) "Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The word of God does not leave deep impressions on our minds, if our hearts are not disposed to receive it. Many Christians are hindered from their profiting from the Christian word of God, their abundance in the physical world keeps them from seeing the spirit in all things. It would be nice if Christians practiced what they preached instead of just repeating dogma without knowing it on a deep level. Soma, There is a word I use rarely ... as it should be. Amen! Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 DavidK, There are Christian Buddhist. They are good Christians who practice their faith and are better Christians because of Buddhism. Christian preachers capture and portray only a small portion of God. Limited by our mind and God's revelation to us. It is God's grace to have a different way of looking at life, suffering, and God. Buddhism is good and it shows us things that we haven't noticed before, things we have noticed but hadn't paid close attention to. This is a blessing, a renewed awareness of our awesome and loving God. International Standard Version (©2008) 'Let everyone listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Rev 3:13 Mark 4:9 (New International Version) "Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The word of God does not leave deep impressions on our minds, if our hearts are not disposed to receive it. Many Christians are hindered from their profiting from the Christian word of God, their abundance in the physical world keeps them from seeing the spirit in all things. It would be nice if Christians practiced what they preached instead of just repeating dogma without knowing it on a deep level. soma, On useful god(s): Believing in no god relinquishes all of man's questions of what is there into the catagory of "unanswerable". Believing in god(s) has been useful when questions of reality can't be answered without them (ie; Greek, Roman), but too many conflicts arise for any sustainable answers. The only workable answer that recognizes what is truly there is simply that one infinite and personal God provides the sufficient answer for all of man's questions (Christianity). Here are some areas of agreement. And some of disagreement. Christian Buddhist is on oxymoron. We are limited by having a finite mind, but we are not limited by God's revelation to us. I would not limit the hinderences to just Christians, all men are tempted by the world, that would include Buddhists and their emphasis on suffering and the final abandonment of self. I agree some Christians don't behave, and "heathens" sometimes do. (minsocal will love that name: heathen) All men act like Christianity is true. I do not doubt that all men recognize the need for good. Men sometimes cannot see being bad as not being, somehow, good for them. If you understand my drift. I am often shown by others a behavior better then my own. The difference between religions and the difference between philosophies (each religion and philosophy seeks to ultimately answer the same questions) is who has the why answers. I submit this to you, it is only Christianity that answers with the sufficient 'why'. --- minsocal, I wasn't aware warning about compromising ones faith crossed any boundary . Dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 soma, On useful god(s): Believing in no god relinquishes all of man's questions of what is there into the catagory of "unanswerable". Believing in god(s) has been useful when questions of reality can't be answered without them (ie; Greek, Roman), but too many conflicts arise for any sustainable answers. The only workable answer that recognizes what is truly there is simply that one infinite and personal God provides the sufficient answer for all of man's questions (Christianity). Here are some areas of agreement. And some of disagreement. Christian Buddhist is on oxymoron. We are limited by having a finite mind, but we are not limited by God's revelation to us. I would not limit the hinderences to just Christians, all men are tempted by the world, that would include Buddhists and their emphasis on suffering and the final abandonment of self. I agree some Christians don't behave, and "heathens" sometimes do. (minsocal will love that name: heathen) All men act like Christianity is true. I do not doubt that all men recognize the need for good. Men sometimes cannot see being bad as not being, somehow, good for them. If you understand my drift. I am often shown by others a behavior better then my own. The difference between religions and the difference between philosophies (each religion and philosophy seeks to ultimately answer the same questions) is who has the why answers. I submit this to you, it is only Christianity that answers with the sufficient 'why'. --- minsocal, I wasn't aware warning about compromising ones faith crossed any boundary . Dk davidk, I have not compromised my faith. I have built it. You are now on permanent "ignore". Your suggestion is insulting and demeaning. "I wasn't aware warning about compromising ones faith crossed any boundary." God's unconditional Love crosses all boundaries. And, "awareness and "cognition" are overlapping terms. minsocal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 DavidK, Many Christians are not satisfied with the 'why answers given to them in Christianity' so that is why we have Christian Buddhist because they get a better answer and a better understanding of the why answers with a combination of the philosophies. We can change our lives by becoming aware of our unity with an infinite, loving God and the infinite possibilities that await us. Many Christian Buddhist have brought themselves to a greater consciousness, love,and awareness of our unity with positive life affirming beliefs. Their negative thoughts and problems have disappeared as they expressed more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from the infinite God, but many Christians hesitate to venture into the unknown afraid that there is more than one God because other Christians who don't know are preaching about many gods and not one infinite, loving God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 DavidK, Many Christians are not satisfied with the 'why answers given to them in Christianity' so that is why we have Christian Buddhist because they get a better answer and a better understanding of the why answers with a combination of the philosophies. We can change our lives by becoming aware of our unity with an infinite, loving God and the infinite possibilities that await us. Many Christian Buddhist have brought themselves to a greater consciousness, love,and awareness of our unity with positive life affirming beliefs. Their negative thoughts and problems have disappeared as they expressed more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from the infinite God, but many Christians hesitate to venture into the unknown afraid that there is more than one God because other Christians who don't know are preaching about many gods and not one infinite, loving God. Again, I agree. But, I would also say that many Buddihists are not satisfied with the 'why answers given to them in Buddihism'. That is why we have a dialogue. Perhaps, just perhaps, God intended us to have this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I agree with a good dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 DavidK, Many Christians are not satisfied with the 'why answers given to them in Christianity' so that is why we have Christian Buddhist because they get a better answer and a better understanding of the why answers with a combination of the philosophies. We can change our lives by becoming aware of our unity with an infinite, loving God and the infinite possibilities that await us. Many Christian Buddhist have brought themselves to a greater consciousness, love,and awareness of our unity with positive life affirming beliefs. Their negative thoughts and problems have disappeared as they expressed more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from the infinite God, but many Christians hesitate to venture into the unknown afraid that there is more than one God because other Christians who don't know are preaching about many gods and not one infinite, loving God. soma, I don't believe very many Christians are dissatisfied with the answers Christianity gives them. They are Christians because Christianity does provide for them the satisfactory answers. I have spoken on several occasions of mans need for unity. Christianity and Buddhism are adament about it in a way similar to your "We can change our lives.." sentence. I have also spoken of mans need for diversity. Neither unity nor diversity can be ignored, because they both exist. But all too often diversity is ignored. Christianity differs from Buddhism quite dramatically here. Because there is no need for God in Buddhism, it has no sufficient explanation for why anything exists; it speaks of morality but can't tell us why something is right or wrong; it denies the individual soul and self; it teaches one can purify oneself; it is considered detrimental to Buddhist practice to even seek for a Buddhist epistemology. Christianity and Buddhism share no similarities anywhere here. I really don't believe Buddhism's promise of the annihilation of self in the supreme bliss of Nirvana is a preferable answer for anyone, and any marriage of the two abandons Christianity altogether. --- minsocal, I had made no accusation of your faith yet being compromised, and had only cautioned that you can't build a Christian faith on the tenets of another belief system. It could only be taken as insulting and demeaning if you perhaps are having guilty feelings about actually having compromised. Railing about boundary violations, and not revealing to anyone which boundary we're talking about is troubling. I think you would be better off putting me on permanent ignore. You seem to believe me a threat to your faith and profession. Respectfully, Dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 soma, I don't believe very many Christians are dissatisfied with the answers Christianity gives them. They are Christians because Christianity does provide for them the satisfactory answers. I have spoken on several occasions of mans need for unity. Christianity and Buddhism are adament about it in a way similar to your "We can change our lives.." sentence. I have also spoken of mans need for diversity. Neither unity nor diversity can be ignored, because they both exist. But all too often diversity is ignored. Christianity differs from Buddhism quite dramatically here. Because there is no need for God in Buddhism, it has no sufficient explanation for why anything exists; it speaks of morality but can't tell us why something is right or wrong; it denies the individual soul and self; it teaches one can purify oneself; it is considered detrimental to Buddhist practice to even seek for a Buddhist epistemology. Christianity and Buddhism share no similarities anywhere here. I really don't believe Buddhism's promise of the annihilation of self in the supreme bliss of Nirvana is a preferable answer for anyone, and any marriage of the two abandons Christianity altogether. --- minsocal, I had made no accusation of your faith yet being compromised, and had only cautioned that you can't build a Christian faith on the tenets of another belief system. It could only be taken as insulting and demeaning if you perhaps are having guilty feelings about actually having compromised. Railing about boundary violations, and not revealing to anyone which boundary we're talking about is troubling. I think you would be better off putting me on permanent ignore. You seem to believe me a threat to your faith and profession. Respectfully, Dk A threat to my faith? Nah! You have never been a threat to my faith. My profession found it's ethics in Christianity. Welcome to the 21st Century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 davidk, I think you would be more comfortable sharing your views on a different message board? Just an observation. minsocal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Year 1997 & 2000 polls: Item Year General American Population Born-again Christians * Margin of Error 3 Jesus was crucified but not physically resurrected 1997 35% of born again Christians 3 points margin of error After he was crucified an died, Jesus Christ did not return to live physically 2000 30% of born again Cristians 3 points margin of error * Barna Research defines a "Born-again Christian" as an individual who has "made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who then indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior." The poll shows that one third of Christians have doubts about the main parts of Christianity. They got the same result in 2003 Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. Romans 6 Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. DavidK, You are full of yourself and need to annihilate the self. You preach sin so are the slave to sin. Minsocal said what sin? He is concentrating on the bull's eye getting the self out of the way. You bring up sin, what sin? Do you doubt Jesus Christ? YOur words seem to say you doubt that Jesus died for our sins. Believe it and not just mouth the words. A disciple of Jesus is a learner, and the primary teacher is the life of Jesus, not the life of sin. Total loyalty is crucial, this is self annihilation. If you care more about your family than about Jesus, when families are divided under pressure of persecution, they will choose against Jesus. This is self annihilation and it lies behind Jesus' remarks. Discipleship is not possible if one follows oneself and sin then Jesus is not the teacher. Are you afraid to bear the cross and come to Jesus? If you can't understand the teachings of the Bible about devotion and discipleship then read Buddhism and you can learn it there. Learning from Jesus means following him, bearing the cross he bore. We cannot "learn about Jesus" without being prepared to walk this path, give up our lives and take up his cross. Discipleship is basically allegiance to Christ and not to self. Paul makes the same point Romans 6 telling us not to follow sin or self. "Lord let Thy will be done. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Soma, There is no reason for anyone to be a Christian if Christianity did not provide the answers for the questions they ask? As even you have implied, it is a life of learning and coming to understand all that is Christianity and it takes time with contemplation. Not all Christians have asked the necessary questions to be able to understand the sufficiency of the Bible's answers. Perhaps that was your point for the scriptures you provided. -- We are all full of sin, or do you in any way feel you or minsocal are sinless or less full of your selves? What I preach is that the Christian God is the personal-infinite creator of all things; it is Christianity that provides the only sufficient meaning for morality; the personal-infinite God spoke propositionaly to man His verifiable truth; and those propositions survive errorless in the Bible. The sin in preaching is any that is contradictory to what the Christian God claims through His revealed propositional truths. Buddhism is contradictory. First, it not only denies God but denies even the need for God. This is man-centered belief. This is rebellion and the preaching of sin. No other precepts of Buddhism need to be numbered for the evidence to demonstrate the Buddhist philosophy is rebellion against God. It renders itself spiritually dead. This is good reason many Buddhists claim of Buddhism as not a religion. If the first one is true then Buddhism can do nothing but sin and preach sin without the God of Christianity. -- You ask that I should believe Jesus' sacrifice was for my sin, I do; but do you know why His sacrifice is sufficient? Buddhism can't explain it, they don't think they need salvation to begin with! -- Total loyalty to Jesus is not annihilation. That is dangerously absurd. God loves you and does not want you annihilated. Jesus does not want you destroyed, He wants you, your intrinsic self, eternally in fellowship with Him. How can you be in eternally joyful relationships if you have been annihilated? ----- minsocal, It's pretty clear there has been difficulty for us to communicate without the appearance of some anger. Since it is difficult in many cases to properly read emotions in someones writing, sometimes it is unavoidably apparent that there is some level of anger involved. -- What you were writing and how it was written, seemed to indicate you were very upset with something I had said. You seemed upset enough to have appeared threatened in some way. Somehow a bias has developed against anything I may say and I am trying to sort it out. posts #82 and 83 for example. I am still at a loss about what boundary you said I had violated, or how my being unware of something can be considered demeaning toward you. The old "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you" routine is simply someone hellbent on holding a grudge. Whatever it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 DavidK, It is not Christian to lie. Buddhism does not deny God. Telling lies about Buddhism does not help Christianity, but belittles Christianity. Christianity is great if one lives it and not just mouth the words. Annihilation is the liberation of the mind from the burden of the lower self that continues to sin. In the previous quotes from the Bible it is saying don't be the slave to sin so why do you keep talking about sin? The soul bathes in the bliss of Our Lord. Get rid of your lower self, recognize your Spirit and bath in the light of Our Lord. Don't lie to build up an argument for Christianity. Go deeper in the Spirit and Christianity will benefit from your compassion. Maybe, you are not asking the right questions because you seem to miss the answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Soma, We seem to be converging on the same or similar ideas, but with somewhat different terms. Earlier, I posted my comments (on another thread) concerning Paul and the "divine spark within", this being part of the the soul. In my terminology, I simply refer to innate moral emotions and innate moral intuitions. Science meets religion and finds agreement. What could be better? I also noted that the scientific research finds these moral emotions and moral intuitions in all cultures. The dialogue between Buddhists and Christians can be very interesting. Some time ago I explained the "God Is Still Speaking" button I wear to a Buddhist friend. He listened, thought for a bit, smiled and said "yes, and I hope we are listening". Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Minsocal, I feel you are doing God's work. Love comes to us through the bringing to light of our own inner being. “Love your brother as yourself,” we must first know and love our higher self. It takes the knowing of this truth to make God evident. All harmony in our experience is the direct result of the activity of love in our consciousness. This does not consist in making statements or repetitions of love, but the awareness of love and the science of pure consciousness in all things. The infinity of God appears when we see pure consciousness in God’s infinite forms and varieties, God as omnipresent, the pure consciousness of God in the individual consciousness and in our own. This love must be realized, we cannot just simply preach how to love God then strive to confound other faiths or religions. Developments in modern science, expecialy Quantum Physics, have opened new perspectives for a unified understanding of our universe. String Theory and M Theory are connecting all the dots from low energy to high energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Soma, Buddhism refutes the existence of a creator. While it may not deny the existence of supernatural beings, it does not ascribe any powers of creation, salvation or judgement, to any "gods" (of which none are absolute) Buddhism attributes supernatural powers to the enlightened beings (Buddhas), that even the "gods" may not have. That is, without a doubt, a denial of our God and the need for Him. Buddism is what disparages Christianity. To teach annihilation is in direct opposition Christianity! Love comes to us from God. The evidence of His existence and divine attributes is seen in all He created. I have spoken on several occasions of the need for personal unity and diversity with God and in the universe. It differs from your thought in that yours is impersonal. --- minsocal, On more than one occasion I have presented that man has a feeling of moral motions; and that all men have always felt that things were right and things were wrong. Oh my! It appears we are in some agreement. Now, without the infinite-personal, creator God there is no standard in the universe which gives final meaning to such words as right and wrong. Dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Soma,Buddhism refutes the existence of a creator. While it may not deny the existence of supernatural beings, it does not ascribe any powers of creation, salvation or judgement, to any "gods" (of which none are absolute) Buddhism attributes supernatural powers to the enlightened beings (Buddhas), that even the "gods" may not have. That is, without a doubt, a denial of our God and the need for Him. Buddism is what disparages Christianity. To teach annihilation is in direct opposition Christianity! Love comes to us from God. The evidence of His existence and divine attributes is seen in all He created. I have spoken on several occasions of the need for personal unity and diversity with God and in the universe. It differs from your thought in that yours is impersonal. --- minsocal, On more than one occasion I have presented that man has a feeling of moral motions; and that all men have always felt that things were right and things were wrong. Oh my! It appears we are in some agreement. Now, without the infinite-personal, creator God there is no standard in the universe which gives final meaning to such words as right and wrong. Dk Is it possible for you to let a Buddhist speak for a Buddhist? A gay person to speak for a gay person? A Muslim for a Muslim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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