Mental Illness And Demons

[Jim R]

Sociopathic and psychopathic types are another thing. They can be charming. They can be murderers. And they often hold public office.

 

Des, you gave me my belly laugh for the day with that sentence.

[Realspiritik]

One note though. There were a couple of cases that were so atypical that the shrinks just couldn't nail it down. The labs didn't check out, the symptoms didn't check out, they smelled bad no matter how often they bathed, and in one case there was huge amounts of green expectorants. So "Asian's Traveler" may not be too far off. behind close doors, I saw experienced Psychiatristss and Psychologists throw there arms up in exasperation and say if there such a thing as "demon possession" this or that case exemplied it. They just couldn't put it on paper or their professional license would be in jeopardy.

 

 

I have major, major qualms about taking isolated cases of unexplained medical illness and using "demon possession" as a catch-all wastebasket to explain rare diseases that aren't understood yet. I side completely with Des. Major mental illness is very complex, and stigma is the last thing individuals need. I worked in the mental health field for five years, and in that time I saw the miracle of modern antidepressants and antipsychotics at work. I remember particularly well the case of a woman with severe post-partum depression. It was so severe, the psychiatrist concluded she was suffering from a psychotic depression. Before this woman was put on an atypical antipsychotic (Zyprexa), she couldn't function at all, she couldn't bond with her child, she looked haggard and dishevelled, and her husband was frightened by the severity of her illness. After she'd been on Zyprexa for about 2 months, the turnaround in her mood and behaviour was so astonishing that I hardly recognized her. She'd returned to a state of normalcy and was able to participate lovingly in the care of her child.

 

If you haven't heard of the strange case of the Jefferson Island disaster at Lake Peigneur in Louisiana in November 1980, check it out. The story is so bizarre as to defy belief. In another age, this disaster would have been called the work of God or the Devil. But everything that happened is explained by simple science. It's a wonderful reminder to all of us religious/spiritual folks not to jump to medieval conclusions about anything in science, including human physiology, which is also guided by scientific principles (even though we don't fully understand those principles yet).

 

On November 20, 1980, Lake Peigneur was a freshwater lake that was only 11 feet deep. By November 22, Lake Peigneur was a 1,300 feet deep saltwater lake. Miraculously (and I don't use the term loosely), no one died when a Texaco drilling rig in the lake accidentally opened up a hole in the roof of a salt mine 1500 feet below the surface. As lake water poured through the small hole in the mine roof, the salt began to dissolve, and soon the gaping hole acted like a giant bathtub drain. A geyser of compressed air erupted from the salt mine, and a huge whirlpool appeared on the surface of the lake. The whirlpool sucked loaded barges down (most of which later popped back up like corks!), pulled 65 acres of land off Jefferson Island, and turned a 12-mile-long canal into a 50-foot-high waterfall that poured Gulf saltwater backwards into the lake and forever changed Lake Peigneur's biology.

 

Yeah, eh? Can you imagine how dumbfounded the local citizens must have been? Can you imagine how much worse it would have been for them if superstitious folk had come along and told them science couldn't possibly explain what had happened, but aliens or demons could? Talk about a way to free up some Louisiana real estate real fast.

 

Love Jen

[Jim R]

Okay Jen I stand chastised but I am relaying what I saw and heard. We are talking about severe cases where schziophrenia was diagnosed or schizo-affetctive disorder just because nothing else fit, where no psycho -trophic worked or was irrelevant, where massive doses of tranquilers couldn't quiet them down, in one case there had been contact with the dead, verified by a priest who had tried exorcism and failed, in another case satan worship that involved cannibalizing a baby, etc.

 

I am not talking about post partum depression here or fundamentalists labeling anything they don't like as "demonic", I am talking about some really strange stuff. And the other other dynamic happening here is the shrinks agreed they may NOT be mentally ill, these people had dabbled in the supernatural , went too far, and their heads cracked and a whole bizaar demension of ugliness that we don't understand opened up.

 

I hate to sound creepy here and if you have seen my other blogs, you may have noticed that I am not given to supersition or silliness. These are cases that go in the "unexplained phenomena" category.

[Jim R]

I met these clients in a locked down state mental hospital, by the way, where authorities were aware of any crimes that had been committed, and the people were there instead of being in prison. After many many years being locked down, they both re-entered society,inluding the person who cannibalized a baby. Real "Hannibal Lector". "Charles Manson" type stuff.

[des]

I agree there is the Hannible Lector element. It isn't at all common (whew!), and I am sure these

people aren't mentally ill in the usual sense, even though almost everyone would say they are sick.

I have no trouble in saying these cases involve evil, but I dislike the notion of personifying evil into

a creature like Satan or demons. For one thing, it implies that personalized evil creatures exist.

I also think there is plenty we don't know about how the mind works, esp when people immerse

themselves in evil activities and thoughts. BTW, I don't believe in contact with the dead, even if a priest

"verified it". The only thing I could say was that the person must have been extremely convinced/convincing

that he had contact with the dead.

 

There are various, for lack of a better term, "switches" in the brain that stop us from doing whatever

we think. You see what happens in ADHD when kids basically do whatever they think of doing (mostly

it is saying what they think to say, touching stuff,etc) or in more serious cases like Tourettes' where people

sometimes say swear words and racial slurs. What if someone thought about

stuff that people don't generally think about (like eating babies), and then that switch wasn't turned off

that would go from thought to action? I mean we know there are people with various sexual fantasies that most people do not fantasize about, sometimes become action? We could maybe assume that some tiny fraction of people do think about stuff that would freak out most people, and then a smaller subset of that group would actually do it. I don't claim to understand why that might be though.

 

 

On a less rare note, there are kids (and adults) that immerse themselves in things like Nazism and white supremacy. These people sometimes do act on these ideas, even today. They aren't mentally ill by any definition. I would gather it starts harmlessly enough. They go to a website, say. And then they start spending more and more time in that "community". I think one thing we do know about them is they are not

really connected to real communities. (Perhaps the same could be said for the terrorist bombers.)

 

There is evil, for sure, but what the nature of evil is, is another subject.

 

It is also one thing to say that these very small selection of cases is evil or demonic and then generalizing

to the vast majority of mentally ill patients and saying they are demon possessed. The center where I was

had no such cases, afaik, and they worked with thousands of mentally ill people. I met odd folks, no question, but they were mostly harmless and mostly pretty garden variety in the kinds of delusions

they had.

 

Even though mental illness is a very bad thing to have, I wouldn't put it in the category of evil. I think

the people you speak of (or Neonazis for that matter) are in another group. They may get locked up like

common criminals or severely mentally ill people but that doesn't make them so.

 

 

--des

[Realspiritik]

Okay Jen I stand chastised but I am relaying what I saw and heard. We are talking about severe cases where schziophrenia was diagnosed or schizo-affetctive disorder just because nothing else fit, where no psycho -trophic worked or was irrelevant, where massive doses of tranquilers couldn't quiet them down, in one case there had been contact with the dead, verified by a priest who had tried exorcism and failed, in another case satan worship that involved cannibalizing a baby, etc.

 

I am not talking about post partum depression here or fundamentalists labeling anything they don't like as "demonic", I am talking about some really strange stuff. And the other other dynamic happening here is the shrinks agreed they may NOT be mentally ill, these people had dabbled in the supernatural , went too far, and their heads cracked and a whole bizaar demension of ugliness that we don't understand opened up.

 

I hate to sound creepy here and if you have seen my other blogs, you may have noticed that I am not given to supersition or silliness. These are cases that go in the "unexplained phenomena" category.

 

 

Jim, I believe you. I believe you to the core. I apologize for not making it clear that I trust the truth of your reporting. The creepy kinds of things you've seen are the same kind of creepy thing that led me to press with all my channelling might for answers to explain them. For a long time -- maybe four years -- after I first began to channel, I had no clear explanation for the kind of bizarre phenomena you've described. In the absence of any other feasible explanation, I went, by default (though I now regret this) to the idea of evil energy or demonic forces. There just didn't seem to be anything else to pick from. And the Bible talked about demons, so I thought I was on safe ground. But Jesus taught me otherwise. That's why, as I've mentioned on other threads, I go with neuroscience as my starting point.

 

I know the kind of hospital unit you're describing. In Canada, they sometimes put the scariest of the scary psychopaths in the forensic unit of the psych hospital because nobody knows what else to do with them. I haven't worked in such a unit, but I have my own protracted personal experience that taught me the hard way just how frightening and unpredictable the mind of a psychopath is. If I hadn't had firsthand experience with the terror tactics of a psychopath, I'm not sure I would have understood Jesus when he told me the answer to human evil lies in the human brain. But I couldn't ignore or deny the look in this particular person's eye (not to mention her inexplicable behaviour). I had to face the fact that she liked herself the way she was. Then I had to deal with it. To deal with it, I needed to understand how she got so badly off course. That's where my channelling came in.

 

Jim, you make the point that some of the patients you saw had dabbled in the supernatural, went too far, and their heads cracked. That's what I've been saying here, too. There's grave danger to one's mental and physical health when one plays with mystical fire. I can explain how this happens, neurophysiologically speaking, and if anybody would like the nitty gritty details, let me know.

 

The spiritual question for the rest of us is . . . how can we help ensure that other human beings don't end up so f***** up? Society would be a lot safer and happier for everyone if we learned how to prevent such tragic brain damage in the first place.

 

Love Jen

[Jim R]

Des, Just to make sure you know where I am coming from, I don't believe in a the literal, tradtional devil. I think humankind chooses constantly between the good and the bad. Our choices are for the spiritual or for the egoic every minute of the day. We are all children of God, and as children of God ,divine. I do take the biblical passage "The Kingdom of God is within". literally.I am not a worshipper of the angry male sky God who punsihes , torments, and burns people he doesn't like in hell for ever. I don't think I have ever personally said that anyone was demon possessed, even before my beliefs became very progressive.

 

I wish I could say more about these two cases that the shrinks gave up on but confidentiality laws prohibit it. One of these individuals has passed away but the other case was somewhat famous many years ago with books and some TV appearances so I can't give any more details.Plus I was attacked by this individual and they know where I live. There were some pre-cognitive and extra sensory things going on here too. But if you don't want to believe any or all of it, thats fine. I wouldn't have believed it either.

 

 

The point is as rational and scientific as we may be, there are some things that are unexplainable. The human mind is capable of incredible manisfestations.

For instance, in Vodoo, if some one puts a curse on a vodoo beleiver, the curse is likely to be successfull. If the curse is put on a nonbeliever, the curse is likely to be unsuccessful.When people start dabbling in the dark side of things bad things just might happen. Things that can't as of yet be explained scientifically.

 

The two shrinks I mentioned had no further scientific explanation for the symptoms they were seeing. In exasperation, they called it "demon possession", probably for a lack of any better terminology.

 

Personally I would call it, "unexplained phenomena ".

 

As for our society, as Jen mentioned, that is why we have to work for a lovable sustaining society so we stop producing Charles Manson's and Jefferey Daumers.

[des]

Jim, I didn't think you had used the idea of a literal physical devil or demon but others here

appear to have used the idea (unless I got them wrong).

 

Yes, I would definitely put it in "unexplained phenomena".

I think "belief" does play a part in various phenomena that you mentioned (say Voodoo).

It is related to the placebo effect, in that if you believe in something it is possible it will

help (or hurt) you.

 

 

 

What you describe with these prisoners is probably exceptionally rare.

Yes, the mind is exceedingly strange.

Thank God.

 

 

 

--des

[Jim R]

The "mind-body" is a very strange organism. Most people desribe me as mellow and laid back but if I have too much caffeine I get argusome, irritable, my blood pressure goes up , and am difficult to get along with.

 

I stopped drinking any sort of whisky many years ago becaue it makes me want to fight.If I drink wine I get even mellower and start telling jokes that if I wouldn't be able to remember otherwise.

 

Another interesting thing about that study on voodoo, that I didn't mention, was that sometimes the people who got sick or hurt by the voodoo curse, didn't know they had been cursed. They just believed in voodoo. They were in some sort of collective consciousness.

 

I don't watch creepy crawly movies because they give me bad dreams but many do. (Some I suppose without effect) I catch bits and pieces though and there is some really sick stuff out there. Could some be in some sort of collective consciousness thing where they do believe in a literal devil, hell, and a punitive harsh male sky God who they fear and want to attack? By siding with what they see as "satan" or evil they are in effect rebeling agaisnt the angry sky God that is going to punish them and fry them for eternity?

[Realspiritik]

Another interesting thing about that study on voodoo, that I didn't mention, was that sometimes the people who got sick or hurt by the voodoo curse, didn't know they had been cursed. They just believed in voodoo. They were in some sort of collective consciousness.

 

Jim, you'll sleep better at night if you try trusting your intuition more strongly. Take the things you're thinking and feeling and hold them at a distance. Look objectively for a moment at exactly what you're saying. You're smarter than you think. You've found in your studies that those who believe in voodoo can get sick even though they don't know they've been cursed. This creeps you out. So far so good. It's normal and healthy that you should be creeped out. You need to take your innate wisdom a step further, though. Examine the facts carefully. It's only those who believe in voodoo who are affected by it. This means there's a problem for those who believe in voodoo. For some reason, they get strange illnesses. Step 2 is to go further with your questions and ask God why voodoo seems to work. Is it the voodoo rituals themselves that have power to make others ill? (Certainly a practitioner of voodoo has a vested interest in making you believe this is so.) Or is it the false belief system in the mind of the victim that makies the person ill? Is a mere belief in evil voodoo powers strong enough on its own to harm your own immune system? Is a belief in evil forces so upsetting to your inner soul that you literally make your own brain and body sick? Would believers in voodoo get sick at some point anyway even if no one were to officially cast a curse in them? The answer is yes.

 

The facts tell you three things: (1) Only those who believe in voodoo seem to be affected by its curses. (2) Belief systems have powerful effects on one's health, either for good or for ill. (3) To help preserve your mental and physical health, stay away from voodoo.

 

What we put into our heads is just as important as what we put in our stomachs. If our intuition keeps telling us that violent movies are bad for us and our children, we should probably listen to our common sense and not feel remotely guilty about refusing to watch these films. There's always going to be a pop psychologist and/or marketing genius whose job is to convince you you're weak and foolish if you can't take it like a man. To heck with that. It takes courage to buck societal trends and listen to the wisdom of your own soul.

 

Love Jen

 

P.S. I don't drink alcohol at all anymore, and I don't apologize for bucking convention when I go out. Hey . . . it's my brain, and my brain just doesn't like alcohol. Caffeine's okay for me, though. So is chocolate!

[Jim R]

O.K. Jen I am going to ponder on what you said. I am also going to start another thread on the power and capabilities of the mind as we are drifting (in a good way) from the topic. (if you want to start another thread, go ahead) See you soon.

[des]

Yes, this is a thread that is over, as far as I'm concerned. I don't have much discipline in this, unless

I feel there is overt attacking going on though. (which I don't).

 

--des

[DMac]

I just joined and am sorry to see that this thread closed, as it is one that touches my life significantly -- and is something I currently am struggling with.

 

About a year ago I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and have found that when in my down moods, I give up on everything spiritual and on any hopefullness for the future.

 

I don't rail against God for my having this illness, but it does concern me that much of the illness (and the symptoms of) are out of my control and so when I am having an episode I can't see/feel/experience the spiritual aspects of my life that give me comfort when I am not having an episode.

 

If it were up to me, I would spend all of my life in trying to connect with the sacred and live a Progressive Chrisitan life to the best of my abilities. But it's not my own doing when I experience a set-back and then seem to have to start all over at Square One in building back my faith.

 

So much of any of the faiths seem to rely on one's ability to freely make a choice on what path they want to pursue, so I feel left out (as I imagine some other mentally ill people do) because often I am not able make my own choice -- freely or otherwise.

 

- Doug

[des]

>Dmac:

>I just joined and am sorry to see that this thread closed, as it is one that touches my life significantly -- and is something I currently am struggling with.

 

No thread is actually closed. It fell out of circulation more like it.

I said I didn't want to discuss whether mental illness was demonic in origin as I

felt that set things back considerably.

 

It also touches me. I was dxed as having a severe mental illness, but

later found to have epilepsy. I have been in organizations for mentally ill people. I also am (mildly) autistic.

It's not a mental illness, but it certainly is misunderstood in similar ways. I have had many friends dxed

as mentally ill (schizophrenic or something).

 

>If it were up to me, I would spend all of my life in trying to connect with the sacred and live a Progressive Chrisitan life to the best of my abilities. But it's not my own doing when I experience a set-back and then seem to have to start all over at Square One in building back my faith.

 

 

Strangely, with uncontrolled epilepsy I had more intense religious experiences than I have now. In fact, I had sensory experiences such as seeing sound. Otehr experiences were seeing things in unusual ways. Some of these things I miss. I don't miss being disabled, not being able to work (I kept leaving jobs), and so on. But I miss those experiences.

 

>So much of any of the faiths seem to rely on one's ability to freely make a choice on what path they want to pursue, so I feel left out (as I imagine some other mentally ill people do) because often I am not able make my own choice -- freely or otherwise.

 

I feel that a lot of what we take as "free will" is not. We are deeply affected by the physiology of our brains and our early experiences. I still think I believe in free will fro the most part, but I feel there is a limit to it.

I think you have very clearly stated one possible limitation. What do you do? The best you can, I guess. It

is the best any of us can do.

 

Hopefully, you have some supports out there. Online has new kind of communities that can be very valuable.

 

 

>Doug

 

--des

[Cynthia]

DMAC - the up and down nature of bipolar disorder gives you a chance to learn how to cope. Basically, you now have experience with the downs and you know, from your own experience, that you will come back up and have the kind of contact with God that you value. If you know that, then the next down will be less hopeless. You may want to write down some reassurances for yourself as well as a list of things that help you get better. Use your brain in a well state to assist yourself when your brain is stalled and negative.

 

Welcome to the boards and Godspeed.

[flowperson]

Dmac:

 

Having been where you are I can only echo the excellent advice given to you by des and Cynthia. Relish and remember what is given to you during the ups. It is invariably important information. Create new ideas and artistic works if possible and share them with those that you can trust... then prepare yourself for the downs.

 

This is the other side of the creative process and it can be transcended if you work hard enough at it. Many famous people in history are your companions in this. A strict daily regimen of vitamin and herb therapy, good music to listen to, plus lots of sunshine seems to have helped me the most.

 

Hang in there. I can't promise you that it will get better, but you can see now that you have sympathetic company here.

 

flow....

[DMac]

Thanks to all who replied - you have some good ideas and thoughts on how to cope and, more importantly, how to continue to grow despite the moods & times that are out of my control.

 

And I guess part of my frustration, if I look at it honestly, is envy of those who don't have to deal with this recurring situation. Not to say that everybody else's life is easy, or even easier. I just become frustrated at the amount of medications I'm on and I wish that this particular aspect of my life were taken away.

 

Thanks again to all!

 

- DMac

 

God is everything that is good. And the goodness, which everything has, is God. - Julian of Norwich

[Cynthia]

Totally understand Dmac - sorry you have to deal with this. Just remember that, even if you don't know about it, everybody's got something. It's just hard to remember that in our bizarro culture where people who are broke buy the most stuff and very very few people are close enough to anyone to share their real trials. I think ( - yeah, easy for me to say ) that sometimes the people who are so uncomfortable that they have to reach out for help have some advantage. I think that's what the scripture about it being easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven is about. Godspeed.