Kay Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Mental note - don't kid with Joseph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 I fear we're getting a little too ivory tower here. Of course there is good and evil. We all know it, we all work with that as an assumption, even when we don't admit it during intellectual discussions. Consider: child rape, genocide, torture for fun. What do we do with those things? If you want a good approach to this, try M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie. Peck, started out as a fairly average psychotherapist who discovered in his work that there were people whose approach to life, whose attitudes, whose actions could only be understood by using the category: Evil. Aslan, I agree with your comments about good and evil. As a possible thought for you and others to perhaps deepen our understanding of this complex issue, I'd like to comment on the work of M. Scott Peck. A number of different readers on this site have posted positive reviews of his work. However, his most recent book, Glimpses of the Devil, has raised a red flag for me. In this book, he examines the case studies of two exorcisms that took place over 25 years ago. I find it tragic that despite Dr. Peck's training as a professional therapist, he didn't research more recent findings about the brain to explain the frightening symptoms he describes. The human brain, when placed under extreme emotional stress, can "snap", splitting off the emotional circuitry of the brain from the logical circuitry -- an induced form of psychopathy, one might say. Under these medical circumstances, the human brain is capable of behaving in bizarre and very disturbing ways that make us think of "possession". Even the look in the eye of such a patient is frightening to others. But this is medical science, and the "fracturing" of a patient's brain -- dissociative disorder is one name this condition goes by -- should never be confused with the Devil. The work I find most inspiring is Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a trained psychiatrist who was interned in Auschwitz in World War II. He was a prisoner, but he was also a scientific observer. After the war, he returned to Vienna and used his training as a psychiatrist and his experience as a victim of Nazi brutality to found a school of psychotherapy he called logotherapy. The goal of logotherapy is not to help patients gloss over the horrible experiences of their past, but to help them uncover some meaning and purpose in what happened -- to make, as Jesus likes to say to me, a string of spiritual pearls. To me, Frankl is a modern day spiritual hero. After you read his book, it's very hard to say, "It's impossible for a person to transform intense suffering into healing." If Frankl, a survivor of the Jewish Holocaust, could do it, so can the rest of us. All we need is the right kind of emotional support to help us find the hidden truth. Love Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Mental note - don't kid with Joseph. Sorry. You were right. I took it as serious Kay. Should have paid more attention to your wink. Whenever someone says "God told me" I usually take it seriously when I do not know the person and will not debate or reason any further with them. Obviously the response was unecessary since it doesn't fit. Love in Christ, JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOW Posted September 13, 2006 Author Share Posted September 13, 2006 Thanks everybody for your input. Another thing that sometimes makes "good" people do bad things, is collective evil or mob action. I think in "People of the Lie" Scott Peck discusses the Mai Lai massacre as an example of this. The Abu Gharib(sp) incident in Iraq, the rape of the 14 year old girl , also in Iraq ,urban riots, lynching in the south etc., are examples of this. When people get caught up in collective evil ,the individual goodness of the seperate members is irrelevent. In other words ,they can't pool their collective goodness together to overcome the evil generated by the mob . Afterwards they'll be in shock and denial that such a thing happened . After the Rodney King riots and looting, some people actually brought some of the looted items back to the stores a few days later . MOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystictrek Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 I think that Love is the basic fabric of creation. The opposing force is Fear which keeps us believing somehow that love is scarce and we have to fight for it against others who are separate from us, different, strangers, enemies. That's not the way God made it or makes it but we don't always "get it" because of our human limits. We see through the glass darkly as Saint Paul put it. Love conquers fear and we are all working on it as best as we can. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Some people temporarily are living in great fear. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. We need to listen to them. We need to trust that there is a deep and abiding Love within them and maybe we can help bring it to the surface. We need to accept and embrace those who are fearful so that they can come to realize there is nothing to fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Sorry. You were right. I took it as serious Kay. Should have paid more attention to your wink. No problem. I use humor (online at least) to deal with tension. I need to break the habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Love conquers fear and we are all working on it as best as we can. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Some people temporarily are living in great fear. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. We need to listen to them. We need to trust that there is a deep and abiding Love within them and maybe we can help bring it to the surface. We need to accept and embrace those who are fearful so that they can come to realize there is nothing to fear. It seems to me you have spoken well. Forgiveness is a key to the kingdom of God. perhaps a short writing of mine from a slightly different perspective stressing forgiving as relates to guilt might be found intersting to some. So I include it below: Guilt is an invisible pattern of the mind whether it is in the conscious mind, unconscious mind or both. It is present in most all sentient beings in degrees that range from very slight to extreme. Depending upon its intensity, guilt manifests itself in a wide range of destructive tendencies that include everything from depression, errors in choice, some level of abuse to the body, suicide and everything in between. Guilt causes unconscious selection of choices which lead to suffering as a payment for the guilt and in the worst case to self destruction. These manifestations are in a sense all self-inflicted by the choice of measuring or judging others. Understanding this helps to lift ones level of consciousness to a point that one can choose the positive over the negative to eliminate the cause of this phenomena. To break free of this invisible pattern it is necessary to realize that which triggers and sustains this pattern within ourselves. If one realizes that we are all connected to one another and all of creation, then we will note that whatever we say, think or do to another, we are doing it to self. As we go about our daily life, we are presented with an innumerable amount of choices. When someone is speaking to us we sometimes choose to analyze their motives or we choose to entertain preconceived opinions and thoughts that may or may not be accurate. Either way it is not applicable to this moment of now. We may be unconsciously measuring them in a way that creates separateness. In fact any thoughts we have about them that are not founded in unconditional love and peace is a form of measurement or judgment. We may be holding a thought either consciously or unconsciously that they have a problem or are wrong or incorrect in their way. In effect, by our belief, we have made a law by doing so in that we have pronounced judgment on self. If we now commit even a similar act, we are guilty ourselves; we have thus pronounced judgment on self creating unconscious guilt by our perceived belief. Our unconscious attachment to this guilt then attracts the accompanying patterns of manifestations of suffering and afflictions. Most of us remain consciously unaware of the connection of events and resulting cycle of manifestations of this cycle of guilt that was brought on by our choice to judge or measure another. One must at all times choose unconditional forgiveness and love for all of creation including ourselves. How all this self inflicted suffering came about may be described differently by our choice of belief but the net effect is that it is self-inflicted and requires choosing the positive over the negative to break its cycle. Some call it karma and some sowing and reaping. All may have a slightly different perception or understanding of its workings. Either way, all thoughts and actions, whether one believes or not, creates patterns whether positive or negative. It is these patterns that manifest as degrees of pain and suffering or degrees of love and peace. Guilt is False and destructive and is not a necessary virtue to correct errors in judgments. Whereas, wisdom, understanding and increased awareness will suffice. Love in Christ, JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Paul thought evil was based on envy--I tend to agree with that. We know we don't have God's power so we resent him. In Romans 7, Paul writes about sin producing all kinds of covetousness. In Galatians 5 he says: "Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another." The original envy of humans towards God appears in the tree of knowledge story in Genesis, also the Tower of Babel, etc. Milton's "Paradise Lost" portrays Satan being obsessed with rivalry toward God. IMHO, the 9-11 terrorists were driven by envy, disguised as self righteousness. People who may have had much good in them become furious and humiliated that the US has so much they feel deprived of. Despairing of the ability to improve their own conditions, they focus on spiteful attacks. America seems able to produce unlimited amounts of food, entertainment, technology, etc--but how do we keep the rest of the world from envying and wanting to destroy us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AslansTraveller Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 IMHO, the 9-11 terrorists were driven by envy, disguised as self righteousness. People who may have had much good in them become furious and humiliated that the US has so much they feel deprived of. Despairing of the ability to improve their own conditions, they focus on spiteful attacks. America seems able to produce unlimited amounts of food, entertainment, technology, etc--but how do we keep the rest of the world from envying and wanting to destroy us? Mmm, I'm not sure your analysis applies to the 9/11 terrorists. They weren't poor people, they were fairly well off men of Saudi citizenship. They weren't the type of poor, jobless young men that keep showing up in Britain and Iraq, for example. The question is: are we, America, innocents being attacked by those envious of our God given blessings, or is there something about our foreign policy that is getting folks upset? However, his most recent book, Glimpses of the Devil, has raised a red flag for me. In this book, he examines the case studies of two exorcisms that took place over 25 years ago. I find it tragic that despite Dr. Peck's training as a professional therapist, he didn't research more recent findings about the brain to explain the frightening symptoms he describes Good point. I haven't read that book, but have heard that his work with Malachi Martin should make one cautious. Martin is a man whose veracity has had some questions applied to it. (He's written books claiming that the modern leadership of the Catholic church is dominated by Satanists and Freemasons!). But let's please remember: the symptoms he describes could be natural organic causes that looks like possession or it could be possession that looks like natural organic causes. It may be a matter of the filter you are looking through, right? I definitely agree with you on the value of Frankl and his work, though. As for JosephM's comments, I just can't get my mind around them. Maybe I'm not spiritual enough, I don't know. As a Christian, good and evil have value as labels. For good or ill, I don't want to reach a point where I could be detached about brutality and rape, for example. I know there are many traditional spiritual disciplines (Eastern Christianity and some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism, come to mind) that aim for a sort of detachment or apatheia that frees us from that sort of emotional reactionism. I may be misunderstanding that, but I'm not sure I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Aslans, Believe me, I totally agree with your point about US foreign policy...didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I still think envy (and despair) is a big underlying motive for terrorists, whatever their economic status. But perhaps this was a bit off the topic of good people doing bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 To me it is words to acknowledge recognition of our oneness in Christ in spite of our perceived differences. So what about people who aren't Christians? No oneness? What about everyone being one in God? Or one because we all live on planet earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I never knew about Peck until his death. I heard such good things about him at that point that I went out a bought a few books. I read "The Road Less Traveled," in which there were many things I liked, and a couple of things that raised red flags. I then went on to start "People of the Lie," which also had some good things, but which also set off some alarms. I decided to do some research about Peck and what I found astonished (and saddened) me. I couldn't get past the "excorcism" cases or his behavior in general. I understand everybody has faults, but in this instance, it really tainted his books for me. Just my opinion and $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I never knew about Peck until his death. I heard such good things about him at that point that I went out a bought a few books. I read "The Road Less Traveled," in which there were many things I liked, and a couple of things that raised red flags. I then went on to start "People of the Lie," which also had some good things, but which also set off some alarms. I decided to do some research about Peck and what I found astonished (and saddened) me. I couldn't get past the "excorcism" cases or his behavior in general. I understand everybody has faults, but in this instance, it really tainted his books for me. Just my opinion and $.02 I read his books years ago. I think I was in High School, early college, maybe. There were some things I liked, some I didn't. Have no idea what I'd think now. Maybe I'll read it again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 QUOTE(JosephM @ Sep 13 2006, 07:21 AM) To me it is words to acknowledge recognition of our oneness in Christ in spite of our perceived differences. So what about people who aren't Christians? No oneness? What about everyone being one in God? Or one because we all live on planet earth? Did I leave them out? Maybe I missed something in your post? The acknowledgement I speak of doesn't exclude anyone whether they believe or not in Christ. There is no them and us in my statement or in Christ. Our and my signature includes all who read. If it is church gibberish to you then that is fine. I was just clarifying it for you since you asked. You are free to discard or misinterpret my meaning if you like. Love in Christ, JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 But let's please remember: the symptoms he describes could be natural organic causes that looks like possession or it could be possession that looks like natural organic causes. But Aslan, I don't understand why you would want this to be true? Why would you want to live in a universe that has a God who allows possession -- and not just plain ol' fashioned possession, but possession that looks like natural organic causes? Isn't that a bit, uh, mistrustful of God's inherent goodness? Perhaps you might be willing to consider the possibility that God allows mental illness to be expressed in our human biology so we'll be encouraged to go ever and ever deeper into our soul's true compassion, wisdom, and -- dare I say -- quantum knowledge? Most of us would agree that human beings, if left to our own devices, tend to be . . . well . . . kinda lazy. But nothing galvanizes the human spirit or the human mind more resolutely than the need to solve a pressing medical or societal problem. Nothing makes us want to push ourselves to the full extent of our potential than the need to find a cure, or the need to prevent a tragedy from recurring. God doesn't give us perfect DNA. But God does believe in our ability to work together in teams to alleviate suffering and make the world a better place. Love Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 >But let's please remember: the symptoms he describes could be natural organic causes that looks like possession or it could be possession that looks like natural organic causes. I don't see why if faced between a choice between the explicable and understandable (even if not well understood) and the wierd and bizarre, some people need the wierd and bizarre. I think there is just enough in the universe (and our minds) naturally there that is mysterious that we dont' really need to go looking for demon possession, and that sort of thing. (Ocaam's Razor) The other thing, is that if you start understanding some of the disorders that were once considered demonic, you find understandable causes and events. I'm not saying we all understand them. The child that the movie/book the Exorcism was based on had Tourettes syndrome. There is a lot of fiction around this case, making it possible to do a book/movie i suppose. But no doubt pea soup vomit and a head going around 360 degrees are fictions. These things go on with mostly susceptible, uneducated people and their familiies who will be more than happy to fill in any details with lots of cool filler. The neurophysiology of Tourettes (or just plain neuroscience) would no doubt keep one going their whole life, if one were so inclined, and I have no doubt it would be far more fascinating, confusing and intriguing than the fiction of exorcism. We don't need demons to have mystery in creation. --des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 We don't need demons to have mystery in creation. --des Well said. Nor do we needs demons and devils to explain evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 The neurophysiology of Tourettes (or just plain neuroscience) would no doubt keep one going their whole life, if one were so inclined, and I have no doubt it would be far more fascinating, confusing and intriguing than the fiction of exorcism. Like, totally. We don't need demons to have mystery in creation. I'm with October's Autumn. Well said, Des. Love Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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