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Points Of Commonality


des
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I was just in St. Louis and I had many talks with my sister. I told her I definitely didn't want

to argue as I told her she was too good at that. She is convinced I am also born again and I haven't

done anything to disabuse her of the notion. You know, she is happy and I am happy. It's a white

lie sort of, but the problem with this kind of lying is it is going to have to continue on a long scale and

I have to keep my story straight. :-)

 

Anyway, I have been working on finding commonalities so it was striking we had a couple. I am

playing the recorder and can play (sort of) Simple Gifts. My sister identified it as both simple Gifts

and something called Dance of the Lord. She started singing this and I recall, it is something like

"I am the Lord of the dance said he" in the process "he" dances around the cross and so on.

I can maybe appreciate the "turn around' aspect of the song, but I agree with her, the crucifixation

was torture. No one was dancing, even metaphorically. :-) (BTW, my recorder teacher said that

the two were not identical. But it seems like a theme and variation type difference. Dance of the

Lord goes up in places Simple Gifts goes down in pitch.)

 

She also quizzed me, did I know of this and that. We agreed about the Crystal Cathedral (market driven

Christianity).

 

We were both blown away by agreeing on something like this.

 

 

--des

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So the Lord of the Dance was King David? I can't really recall the song, but I thought the cross got in there somehow. Maybe it was a mixing of metaphors. BTW, I don't have any problems with God as Lord of the Dance either. I think of creation as a huge celebration and the analogy of a dance over creation (Sarah's circle?) is beautiful one. But I have problems thinking of Jesus dancing around the cross. OUCH.

:-o

 

 

--des

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Hi des

 

I believe the Lord of the Dance is supposed to be about Jesus. The hymn is found on page 261 in the UMC Hymnal.

The verse in question is verse 4 (think of the Simple Gifts melody)

 

"I danced on a Friday and the sky turned black

its hard to dance with the devil on your back.

they buried my body and they thought I'd gone,

but I am the dance and I still go on" Chorus

 

When I was a choir director at a Lutheran church, I had the choir sing Simple Gifts arranged by Aaron Copland. The pastor came up after service and told me to never have them sing that song again. She kept saying something about "Lord of the Dance", a song I had never heard of and that she detested. I only knew the words to simple gifts.

" tis the gift to be simple ,tis the gift to be free, .....etc "

 

 

 

MOW

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So the Lord of the Dance was King David? I can't really recall the song, but I thought the cross got in there somehow. Maybe it was a mixing of metaphors. BTW, I don't have any problems with God as Lord of the Dance either. I think of creation as a huge celebration and the analogy of a dance over creation (Sarah's circle?) is beautiful one. But I have problems thinking of Jesus dancing around the cross. OUCH.

:-o

--des

 

I'm not saying that King David was lord of the dance, but ancient Hebrew folk tradition had it that the ruler of the chosen people danced naked in front of his people when going into the city to take his seat on the throne. I don't think it had anything to do with a song/songs per se, but it is hard to dance without music.

 

As far as Jesus' dancing is concerned, this comes from the Gnostic side of stories about his dancing in circles with disciples. I think the Gospel of Thomas mentions it. Ritualistic music, chanting, dancing have always been cross-cultural tribal similarities among older cultures worldwide; and, it is very ancient, 20,000 years back in time or more. European cultures came later to it when it sprang up as folk dance traditions in agricultural and animal husbanding communities.

 

flow.... :)

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>I'm not saying that King David was lord of the dance, but ancient Hebrew folk tradition had it that the ruler of the chosen people danced naked in front of his people when going into the city to take his seat on the throne. I don't think it had anything to do with a song/songs per se, but it is hard to dance without music.

 

 

Well you gotta love the whole idea of the leader dancing naked. Sounds like a leader I could back. :-)

OTOH, even if GWB danced in the nude, I wouldn't like him much better, unless that caused him to not

make war (make dance not war).

 

>As far as Jesus' dancing is concerned, this comes from the Gnostic side of stories about his dancing in circles with disciples. I think the Gospel of Thomas mentions it. Ritualistic music, chanting, dancing have always been cross-cultural tribal similarities among older cultures worldwide; and, it is very ancient, 20,000 years back in time or more. European cultures came later to it when it sprang up as folk dance traditions in agricultural and animal husbanding communities.

 

I love the idea of Jesus dancing, though I would certainly doubt it. OTOH, it has a lovely joyous thing to it.

But I draw the line at anything around the cross. If there would be anything worse than having to sacrifice

yourself for the sins of the world, it would be having to be happy about it. ;-)

 

My other guess is that this has to do with the many perceived "turn around" aspects of Jesus. He supposedly comes as King of Jews, but sits with republicans (woops Publicans) and sinners; is born in a manger;etc. and dies like a common thief. So in turn around style fashion "the Lord of Dance" dancing about the cross. But just pardon while I gag myself with a spoon. :-)

 

OTOH, I love "We are dancing Sarah's circle". Don't consider it a hymn exactly, more in the line of Kumbaya, Michael Row the Boat Ashore, and "He has the Whole World in his hands". Camp songs to be sung

around the campfire, even if that's maybe not their origin. We sang several verses of the Sarah's circle song

at a UCC retreat circa 1990 or so.

 

 

BTW, I don't think Lord of the Dance OR Simple Gifts are in the UCC hymnal (though I have sung both) maybe there was a big argument and so they said fine, leave out both.

 

--des

Edited by des
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I was just in St. Louis and I had many talks with my sister. I told her I definitely didn't want

to argue as I told her she was too good at that. She is convinced I am also born again and I haven't

done anything to disabuse her of the notion. You know, she is happy and I am happy. It's a white

lie sort of, but the problem with this kind of lying is it is going to have to continue on a long scale and

I have to keep my story straight. :-)

 

Anyway, I have been working on finding commonalities so it was striking we had a couple. I am

playing the recorder and can play (sort of) Simple Gifts. My sister identified it as both simple Gifts

and something called Dance of the Lord. She started singing this and I recall, it is something like

"I am the Lord of the dance said he" in the process "he" dances around the cross and so on.

I can maybe appreciate the "turn around' aspect of the song, but I agree with her, the crucifixation

was torture. No one was dancing, even metaphorically. :-) (BTW, my recorder teacher said that

the two were not identical. But it seems like a theme and variation type difference. Dance of the

Lord goes up in places Simple Gifts goes down in pitch.)

 

She also quizzed me, did I know of this and that. We agreed about the Crystal Cathedral (market driven

Christianity).

 

We were both blown away by agreeing on something like this.

--des

 

I wouldn't let people think I am something I am not, it would make me feel very uncomfortable. Even when my Dad was dying last year I wouldn't tell him what he wanted to hear, which was that I accepted his faith position. That would have made me a total hypocrite and I couldn't have lived with myself!

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>I wouldn't let people think I am something I am not, it would make me feel very uncomfortable. Even when my Dad was dying last year I wouldn't tell him what he wanted to hear, which was that I accepted his faith position. That would have made me a total hypocrite and I couldn't have lived with myself!

 

I understand your feelings. And I agree to some extent. I dont' advocate it necessarily. But I think there are cases where it is necessary for one's sanity. Seriously. It actually happened kind of innocently without me really intending on convincing her that I was "born again". It's a long story.

 

I feel i am in a hopeless situation with her, and this is the best our relationship has been. She is mostly in Europe and I am here, but while she is here I have to solve problems with her, etc. To me, I would just as soon let her think what she wants. She is a totally evangelizing type, so that if she thinks you dont' share Jesus with her, she will spend every spare moment trying to convert you. If I have to spend more than a few days of that, I can't handle it. I am not a very strong debater, in speech at least. Being in Campus Crusade makes it her MISSION to save me or anyone else in her path. Of course, I appreciate that since our relationship is not based entirely on "truth", it will never be a real relationship, but at least we can get things done together, without making my life totally

miserable. Without the constant religious conversions discussions, I can at least relax.

 

--des

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Sometimes you do what you can to survive. I don't think you can judge someone's choices

like this. I don't live with her, and wouldn't wish to. But we have to do things together, take

care of an aging mom, that require working together closely.

 

 

 

And that is absolutely the last I am even going to read of this thread.

 

--des

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I don't think it is right to let people think you are something you are not. I get earache from my Mum everytime she calls me about my spirituality. It would be so much easier to pretend to be what she wants me to be, but that would be wrong imo!

 

 

Smetimes there is no point in pointing out someone is wrong/mistaken. It won't be heard.

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I'm sure Jesus danced. Certainly at the wedding at Cana. Plus, he had a reputation for hanging out with drunkards and whores and other notorious types. I don't think he'd have gotten along well with that crew if he wouldn't dance!

 

That man was a radical! And his "yoke" is light. :)

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