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" Believing Or Beholding?"


jerryb
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"Are we so busy reading the written words,that we miss the realities they describe?"

This ,I believe, is the central message of a new book entitled "Leaving Church" by Barbara Brown

Taylor.

She qoutes from the bible.."Behold ,I bring you good tidings of great joy..Behold the Lamb of God..Behold I stand at the door and knock."

Then she says.."I wanted out of the belief business,and back into the beholding business."

Maybe we have lost our sense of wonder about God, because we are so busy trying to 'explain' the mystery of God,instead of ' living' in the mystery of God.

What do you think?

 

 

 

Looking forward to your thoughts,

 

Jerryb

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Jerryb:

 

Nice to have you back ! :)

 

Hmmmmmm...I believe that some people began living "in" the mystery some time ago, and that's what all the secrecy and fuss these days is really about. It looks like a huge fight over who ends up trying to control as much of what goes on, in-on-and-around the planet, as possible. Of course, for those who study nature and its complexity, this is an essentially absurd approach overall. Complexities must work in harmony and towards unified purposes, or intended outcomes in our futures become increasingly improbable.

 

If some activities skew nature, nature skews the initiator of the activities right back eventually. Call it karma if you will, I believe that the Beatles sang about that forty years ago. That's just the way it all works as a system, I believe. (See, it's really hard not to employ belief even when you're really trying to be objective about it all.)

 

If we behold and operate within what's around us, all the while being ignorant of just what natural systems are in their essential forms, then we are bound to fail as a species, as intelligent and creative as we are.

 

The solutions to such problems are, I truly believe, in the arms of G-d, and IMHO Sh/he's not real pleased with things going on in the world that threaten's it's futures so profoundly. So much so, perhaps, that G-d's going to allow us to skew things up pretty badly before stepping in, just to teach us some lessons about what's really in charge of all that is around us.

 

I still tend to believe that it's love.

 

flow.... B)

Edited by flowperson
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"Are we so busy reading the written words,that we miss the realities they describe?"

This ,I believe, is the central message of a new book entitled "Leaving Church" by Barbara Brown

Taylor.

She qoutes from the bible.."Behold ,I bring you good tidings of great joy..Behold the Lamb of God..Behold I stand at the door and knock."

Then she says.."I wanted out of the belief business,and back into the beholding business."

Maybe we have lost our sense of wonder about God, because we are so busy trying to 'explain' the mystery of God,instead of ' living' in the mystery of God.

What do you think?

Looking forward to your thoughts,

 

Jerryb

 

 

On the whole I prefer credible explanation to mystery!

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Jerry,

 

I wasn't the one who started my living in the mystery. Spiritual experiences in response to prayer put me there, and I've thought it's a better place to be ever since compared to those with purely an intellectual faith, both in terms of helping people in my life instead of doing things that don't matter and in terms of developing a relationship with God instead of believing in God only abstractly.

 

At the same time, I understand what flow says that some people living "in the mystery" are a problem. For me, I don't see anyone living truly in the Spirit who is a problem for other people, only those following this cult that much of the church has become, a cult that wants political power and so much reinforces each other in how perfect they think their beliefs are. Well if their beliefs were so perfect, they wouldn't say and do things that make others think they know little or nothing about God.

 

My expectation is that God will never die, but someday religion will die. It may be a dead man walking already, so that the only future with God is to live by Him, fairly described I think as living in the Spirit, rather than hitting others over the head with your holy book. Maybe by then there will be better role models to show how to do that, without all the negative examples of those who live by their pride and idolatries, claiming those are God.

 

Who God is remains a basic point in any faith. One needs both intellect and experience to know that, even tradition and revelation, but knowing that should make one's life better, not more contentious. There are other features of following the true God, too, not all objective. At some point one has to trust God to be the leader. Yet many people wind up being these self-righteous creeps that way. I think it's something other than God that does that part, but I admit it is a difficult hurdle to negotiate that separates surrendering to the real God as opposed to religious idols. I think people have to trust God a lot to do it. Maybe the qualities that are said to be important in 12 step programs - honesty, openness, and willingness, are critical. Whatever it is, I think there will be better role models in the future, enough for religion to die completely, not God, maybe in 500 years.

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DD:

 

With regard to your statement about the "dead man walking", for those who haven't seen it lately, or at all, there is a classic horror film from about 30 years ago titled, Night of the Living Dead. It's about zombies and how real they may seem until, that is, they start attacking you and will not, cannot stop of their own free will. Reminds me of some of the people in the news these days.

 

Rent it, buy it, watch it if you can. Each time that you watch it, it will becomes more suggestive of today's realities of "those who crowd in upon us" than anything I can think of, except, of course, for watching the nightly news. Dead men walking indeed.

 

flow.... :(

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DD:

 

With regard to your statement about the "dead man walking", for those who haven't seen it lately, or at all, there is a classic horror film from about 30 years ago titled, Night of the Living Dead. It's about zombies and how real they may seem until, that is, they start attacking you and will not, cannot stop of their own free will. Reminds me of some of the people in the news these days.

 

Rent it, buy it, watch it if you can. Each time that you watch it, it will becomes more suggestive of today's realities of "those who crowd in upon us" than anything I can think of, except, of course, for watching the nightly news. Dead men walking indeed.

 

flow.... :(

 

Yes, flow, I'm old enough to remember when Night of the Living Dead was the Saturday midnight movie, before Rocky Horror Picture Show. You know, I actually prefer the latter. It was too weird for me at the time, but it sure gave the audience something to do. Hey, I wonder if church could be like that. Some could come as Jesus, some as Mary Magdalene, some as Mary His mother, some as Romans, carrying hammers and nails ... Would that be wrong? Which side of the Pieta would you like to play? I'll do either, just let me die in my sleep if I have to do the dead guy's side. The idea of nails through my wrists is really creepy to me.

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Hi Dave !

 

With all of this Mel Gibson scandal stuff going on you actually might see fundies role playing in front of his "Passion" film just as was done with the Rocky Horror Show.

 

Wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact that's probably the logical next step in all of this. huh ?

 

But I believe that I still prefer the final scenes in Blade Runner as far as crucifiction scenes go, you know when Rutger Hauer, who plays the "droid" with a limited life span shoves a nail through his hand and gives his final lines before he dies. By the way, do you believe that androids dream of electric sheep ? ( A Philip K. Dick story title from which the story of Blade Runner was taken.)

 

flow.... B)

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Hi Dave !

 

With all of this Mel Gibson scandal stuff going on you actually might see fundies role playing in front of his "Passion" film just as was done with the Rocky Horror Show.

 

Wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact that's probably the logical next step in all of this. huh ?

 

But I believe that I still prefer the final scenes in Blade Runner as far as crucifiction scenes go, you know when Rutger Hauer, who plays the "droid" with a limited life span shoves a nail through his hand and gives his final lines before he dies. By the way, do you believe that androids dream of electric sheep ? ( A Philip K. Dick story title from which the story of Blade Runner was taken.)

 

flow.... B)

 

I don't know about electric sheep, but I wonder if a machine would ever be like Data on Star Trek TNG, wanting to have emotions like humans. They left out whether Data wanted sexual fantasies, too, though they wrote that he could perform on occasion, without getting into how he thought of that much. So does an android really want to go out through crucifixion or through a sex act, if so with whom and how? Somehow I think machines are going to continue not to care about such things, no matter how smart they get, with various biological attachments, unless we really can duplicate complete human consciousness in them. If we can, maybe they can take over from us and be better suited to the human condition.

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I don't know about electric sheep, but I wonder if a machine would ever be like Data on Star Trek TNG, wanting to have emotions like humans. They left out whether Data wanted sexual fantasies, too, though they wrote that he could perform on occasion, without getting into how he thought of that much. So does an android really want to go out through crucifixion or through a sex act, if so with whom and how? Somehow I think machines are going to continue not to care about such things, no matter how smart they get, with various biological attachments, unless we really can duplicate complete human consciousness in them. If we can, maybe they can take over from us and be better suited to the human condition.

 

At least they might be more easily programmed than people, but a lot of that seems to be going on these days also if one really watches what's going on.

 

flow.... ;)

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