JosephM

Paul, Here is an interesting article from CNN that make change your bet odds . 🙂 https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/07/31/cnn-piece-on-what-critical-swing-voters-are-thinking-now-and-its-dynamite/

That's not what she said. Don't you read posts?

Yes, i agree with our constitutional system for the election of the president . Every government official on both sides swears up front to uphold the constitution of the US. If things don't go your way, change the constitution or live with it. State and local governments have their own system and if one doesn't like it they can try to change it within the law or move to another state that is more in line with their thinking. It's nice to be certain about another , isn't it? 🙂 Disagreement is allowed. Perhaps they do have power over you and some others? However, it seems to me one gives them that power and ability to hurt by what seems to me to be flawed thinking concerning inanimate objects meant to be remembered and a part of our history. Oh well, each to his/her own.

Communities have their own charter and way to change which is not bound to the constitutional system of electing the US president. I'm okay with that.

Obviously you don't agree because your however statement negates agreement with what Burl said His entire statement is an important insight into what forgiveness really does. There is no burden placed on the other by any unforgiveness you might have. Unforgiveness is the burden.

Get your facts straight Thomas. NY is not the most densely populated city in the US even if it was stated by ellen. NY city ranks 6th in density

Couldn't agree more.

Depends on who you are polling. If what you say is the case then take it up with the community for a vote. I will abide with my community wishes here.

Sorry to say but they probably have herd immunity by now and not because of a great job by the governor of NY. NY had 1685 deaths per million people. California had 234 per million people, Florida had 327 per million people, Texas 241 per million. The only one worse than New York was New Jersey with 1790 per million. You can check my figures here as they are current as of yesterday. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ There are even 2 states with more cases than NY but as far as deaths per population, NY and NJ are the worst.

Perhaps when you get over your so called harm and hurt, then they can be removed grasshopper. 🙂 We Americans and a majority i might add want to retain these things. I hear your claim of harm and hurt and perhaps you may or may not understand what is going on behind the scenes but this isn't all about statues and monuments. We could cave in to it but that is not the real issue nor will it bring healing. Hurt and the harm spoken of is internal. The statues only have the power you give to them and it will not end there, in my view.

Those are extreme examples and i understand the reluctance to forgive but when one realizes that they themselves if they were born into the bodies who did this to them and had the same genetic makeup and life experiences they would be that person. While we may deem one worse than the other the fact is we have all at one time erred and as James 2:10 says " For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." And as Jesus said in Math 6:15 and in the other gospels "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." One can argue against those words all day but if i know one thing in Christianity for a fact by personal experience i know those words to be spiritually true. Forgetting is not a requirement but forgiving is. We learn from experience by not forgetting but peace comes by forgiveness. Without it there will be no peace and little joy in life. If i am sure of anything in life , that i am sure of.

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No problem. That is your opinion. Let the community decide. It expresses history. Brave and noble people on both sides who fought for what they believed in. What one believes in doesn't always win out. War is a terrible thing where there are no real winners. Do you suppose the Civil War was all about slavery? Read this historical take on it by author and historian Reed Lannom. "Putting aside the political and economic causes of the Civil War, when assessing the men themselves, the personal motivations of most who did the fighting on either side, had nothing to do with slavery. The truth is most Southern soldiers (80% owned no slaves) would have considered themselves to be fighting to defend their homes; just as most Union soldiers were motivated to defend the Union. It seems preposterous that very many of them were thinking “We must keep the slaves!” or “We must free the slaves! As they charged into a hail of cannon and musket fire. and on pbs.org What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America? A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery. In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict. A key issue was states' rights. The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished. Another factor was territorial expansion.The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone. Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence. The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence. Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war. You as others are welcome to express your opinion. Perhaps things are not changing fast enough for you and others. I know you don't agree with the violence but again change has been happening and will happen.... patience grasshopper...... things are not that bad here in the US when you remove the protester violence from the peaceful protesters and the relatively minority of bad eggs in the both the police force and government. Immigrants still flock here in droves because it provides great opportunities, safety and freedoms not seen in their own country.

Carification, okay ... 'right' used as - morally good, justified, or acceptable. Society or the rulers at the time dictate and establish what is right , morally good, justified, or acceptable at any current point in time. It may or may not be agreeable to an individual and he/she may be ahead of their time but the consequences remain until the change occurs. "right" in the sense of true or correct as a fact is not applicable in my statement.

Never bothered to count them. Key Largo fl has "Christ of the deep statue " I guess that could offend a non-believer or different religion. Islamorada fl has a hurricane monument. I wonder if it is to honor the hurricane. BTW, the monument is also a mass grave. Miami fl has a holocaust memorial. Who might it honor? It's history, not to be forgotten. Then let them say so without malice. There would be no disagreement here. We can't stop people from hero worship and we certainly can voice our dislike of it. Still, some will worship statues as heroes but there is a history and story to most all monuments which includes statues. There is usually literature nearby or attached to tell the story. A historical monument is a rich source of History. It gives us a sense of wonder and makes us curious to know more about the past connected with it. We might not like what it represents whether it be slavery or anything else but it still remains a rich source of history for which it was designed.

Nah ! It's what we here in the US call a declarative question. I don't know the history on the phrase but i know an Aussie that has used it more than once.😃 Yes, society as a whole thought slavery was okay at one point and that is the way society works and it usually and hopefully evolves beyond such beliefs as time passes. As far as making something right or not right goes, that to me is irrelevant. I simply do not view it that way since reality and the evolution of collective consciousness dictate societal norms that will ultimately change with time. Do you suppose that reality can be not right.. hmm ... do i question mark that or not?🙂

You put those words in my mouth not me. Certainly the odds are against a minority group but society as a whole reaches an agreement in time as a majority of society or the elected representatives of society agrees with the issue at hand affecting the minority. Patience grasshopper. 😃

Yes the majority of people but not States, and we are a republic, not a democracy. I'm fine with that as it makes for in my view fairer representation for the States. I pledge allegiance to the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands.

Speak for yourself when you use the word "we all" 😛 In 2016 the polls were certain for a Hillary victory. A lot of people lost a lot of bets. 😛 Just have patience grasshopper and the silent majority will speak when its time. 🙂🙂 Seriously, who ever wins , wins. Yet maybe this time it would be good for the Democrats to just eat crow and try to cooperate with the president instead of being so divisive after the election. 😄😃😄

Yes but many of other ethic backgrounds may also agree with them. All US citizens are Americans first. Democracy is not the cry of a single ethnic background nor the loudest though it may sometimes seem so. I don't agree that all statues were place only to honor the man and "never just as historical markers"Most states are like Florida and I quote from their site... "The Florida Historical Marker Program is one of the Division of Historical Resources' most popular and visible public history programs. It is designed to raise public awareness of Florida’s rich cultural history and to enhance the enjoyment of our historic sites by citizens and tourists. These markers allow us to tell the stories of the places and people who created the Florida that we all enjoy today, by identifying the churches, schools, archaeological sites, battlefields and homes that represent our past." Many cancel culture oriented people may want to change history but it cannot be done especially by removing the past. Change can happen by understanding it in the context of the time period. Sure some are offended by these historical markers. Let each community vote on it and let society speak for itself. If the community at the time was racist let it show in the context of the time. There is no need to remove historical content to change that context.

Well, i can't agree that people don't have a choice. While they may not be ready at this time to forgive, the choice will remain until they make it or destroy themselves. When Jesus is recorded saying "as you forgive others it shall be forgiven you " it seems to me he understood that lack of forgiveness was a self destructive tendency from which the only way out is forgiveness of the other. My personal experience is a testimony to that precept. There are physical laws and there are spiritual laws and forgiveness in my view is a spiritual one.

On forgiveness...... The lack of forgiveness to me is like driving down a bumpy road that gets worse with fewer turn-offs. When it gets bad enough for an individual it seems to me from experience they will surrender the inability to forgive no matter what was previously making it incapable for them to do so. In extreme cases, it may take them to their dying breath. I have found there is no forgiveness for self until one forgives the 'other' because in my view of reality there is no 'other'. In our innermost being we are all One.

Thanks for the introduction and welcome to the forum. May you find some benefit to your journey here.

My life is a continuous prayer. I cannot separate myself from God no matter how hard i have tried in the past. Definition of Prayer = a spiritual communion with God The only separation between you and me and God is in your mind that perishes with the using. You can quote me on that. 🙂 Joseph.

I would agree with that. It seems to me that Sufism was meant to be a path from the heart rather than religious dogma and doctrine.