JosephM

I think opposites are illusory and just an arbitrary point on a continuum placed by individual perception and judgement. They may be at times useful in communications but they are not an accurate description because they are in reallity not opposites but rather an arbitrary degree on a continuum. To say it is cold or it is hot is highly subjective. (just ask my wife ) To denote temperature in degrees of heat is much more accurately represented. The same with all things we deem as opposites. What is 'beautiful' versus 'ugly' except an arbitrary term even if a majority agree. What is 'good' and 'evil' except an arbitrary judgement even if agreed upon by a majority. To me opposites which includes good and evil tend to make things black or white when even black or white are not opposites but degrees of light on a continuum perceived as such. I cannot think of an opposite that is not a subjective point of view and personally i believe understanding this is important in our evolution of consciousness. It makes more for openness and more effective communications. Using words such as 'right' and 'wrong' , 'good' and 'bad', as if they are opposites is to me the things that wars are made of. It seems to me, little discussion can be made with such an understanding because as Paul said above using them implies .... " they are set in stone". rather than just an arbitrary point of view. Just musing, Joseph

Steve, Then i would propose you may think it has no purpose but you live your life as if it does because you must truly belief life has purpose. It seems to me, out of the heart comes our actions and not necessarily in agreement in what we think we believe.. Joseph

Paul, said... "Believing that my existence is evidence of a universal purpose, is always going to be subjective. " Subjectivity is the nature of the beast. Things can only be subjectively experienced. It seems to me you will find that for 'self' there is no objective reality. I doubt that anyone, at least that i have met, operates on the premise that we do not exist. One can believe that what we call existence or even evolution has no purpose if they like. To me it certainly appears to have some order, is subjectively evolving and is real enough to believe it has a reason to be. I have used purpose and focus on purpose, all my life to take action and even accomplish things. I know of nothing that is accomplished without purpose so why should i believe there is no purpose in evolution or existence. Its being and evolving makes it enough evidence itself for me. To me, without purpose life ends. I cannot conceive of existence without purpose or meaning but we are free to really believe there is none yet i know of no 'benefit' in such a belief with the exception of despair and death.. Joseph

Paul, Personally i think if there wasn't any reason for you to exist then you wouldn't exist. But since you do then there is a universal purpose of which you are part whether known or unknown. Now speaking of an individuals specific purpose as you mention i think each person takes their own perceived purpose in life and they act on it.. With no specific purpose i think your actions would most definitely be different / change. . In my experience, i see ourselves as purpose-driven and when taking a new belief to heart our perceived specific purpose(s) often change and we change. (live differently). Joseph

yes. The meaning of the word Christ in my view could fit

Agreed. Humanity will evolve whether we subjectively assign a purpose or not. Striking out the words soul or spirit takes nothing from the point that perhaps the meaning of Life is Life itself. Lets live it! Joseph

Thanks Rom and Steve for your specific responses. It seems to me our universal purpose here as humans is to evolve. The existence of Evolution seems to me purpose itself or else it would not be.. If asked.... Evolve exactly Into what ? i cannot say. Even if there is no intrinsic 'me' or the existence we think we perceive is the nature of an illusion, i have no internal conflict because belief in a purpose or evolution is optional and not necessary for Life. Absolute Reality is what it is and subjectively formulating an answer that sounds reasonable will not change it. Then as far as the purpose of life goes, it seems to me.... 'the reason is in the pudding.' Peace, Joseph PS In short perhaps we could say.....Life is the way by which soul or spirit experiences physicality! The soul or spirit not combining with physics cannot experience physical existence... And so, the meaning of life is LIFE ITSELF!

On another note concerning a universal purpose , i find this summation by scholars of the Pali Canon which is believed the oldest document on what the Buddha taught interesting even though a bit harsh for most . Any thoughts? Absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned, itself alone is, all else has always been, is, and always will be just a state of make-believe fiction, a state of delusion worn like a costume with multiple fabricated viewpoints, with each self-sustaining itself in a self-perpetuated state of self-ignorance, until each decides to come to closure through self-enlightenment and self-awakening Joseph

I can appreciate that. (cognitive dissonance that is) And of course, evolution is what we observe because we are sentient beings observing it.. However, it seems to me that a straight line does have a meaning/purpose in being straight otherwise we would call it something else. It may have no purpose to itself in being straight but the statement is directed to that which gives it a useful meaning/purpose.And that seems to me to be valid as purpose since we live and communicate for the most part in a world characterized by dualism. While cognitive dissonance may be ones choice, however limited, perhaps one will find there are at all times other options present. Joseph

Rom and Steve, Do we all exist for a higher purpose such as the universe unfolding whether we realize it or not? Or as drama or entertainment for the whole? Or for the whole to be aware of itself? Or some other reason? Or can it not be determined ? Most all religions have a purpose for all including Buddhism which some consider a non-religion. Joseph PS It seems to me that if nothing else, evolution has the purpose to evolve and everyone plays a part.in it

Our language makes daily use of words commonly referred to as "opposites" such as good and bad, right and wrong, beautiful and ugly, hard and soft, dark and light, hot and cold, etc etc. Are opposites real or just an illusory point on a continuum arbitrarily placed by individual perception and judgement? Do you find their use useful ? If so why? If not Why? What think you? Joseph

If there is a single purpose or reason that is the same for all humans that exist here... In your opinion, What would it be? Joseph

E said.... " I guess I’ve been going about life like just about everyone has had this kind of opportunity when they haven’t, and as you say should be more compassionate and understanding in this regard." Just to clarify, i never said anyone should be more compassionate or understanding. I was just speaking of my own personal experience and what worked for me in life. I may give advice at times based on my perception but i try to refrain from telling people what they should or shouldn't be. Joseph

Steve, I would concur with your intuition. Essentially, to me there are no 'real causes' to be found in this world but rather only an unfolding. One could say we see a connection and describes a "pair" of events, hypothesizing a relationship. This relationship is a concept in the mind of the observer. As David Hawkins has said "it isn't necessary that any corollary external event exists in the universe". In essence one could say time is a subjective, sensory effect of a progressively moving point of view. Joseph

Paul, I think women in general are beautiful creations and that it is unfortunate that a religion might indicate they should cover their faces so thoroughly as in the Burka and Niqab to hide that beauty supposedly to please their creator. I find that a most difficult tenet to believe. Among creation to me, It seems unnatural and i do not understand the benefits . Even Butterflies know beauty is to be expressed, for as soon as they emerge they spread their beautiful colors for all to see. . Yet having said all that, it seems to me ones religious convictions are important to the individual and while security is not for me a personal reason to forbid it, it is a decision that is left for a society as a whole to make. Joseph

Welcome Azvanna, Wow Queensland, i see you are from the opposite side of Austrailia from PaulS (member) here. Are you close to the barrier reef or more inland? You are not alone in your story. Most here have had similarly challenging experiences with their established church system and in time had to leave . I think you will find progressive Christianity more to your liking as it is more of an individual journey of progressing knowledge and understanding rather than any fixed dogma or creed. Again welcome , Joseph.

E, In post #95 You said "I’m not able to figure out what part of my post this sentence applies to or is replying to. If you could let me know what it pertains to, thanks and maybe I could clear it up." That was in response to Steve's paragraph last question not anything you said. On your conditioned existence question.... To me, our own conditioning entails all our programming including genetics , environment, and experiences. From a Buddhist view "Conditioned Existence states that all phenomena, such as an event, a person, a thing,originate from a cause that, when the right conditions are present, will come into being.Once one or more of those conditions changes or is no longer present, the phenomenon will change or cease to exist. Conditions will, in the natural course of events, themselves become causes and causes in their turn will become conditions." You asked "What I’m asking here is, couldn’t a person still have this compassion for others, and still have free will, and a sense or understanding of their own “free will” at the same time? Sure. Believing in the concept of 'free will' doesn't have to restrict compassion. What i said was that for me not believing in 'free will' per se, made compassion rise. Here is why. When i believed we had free will i systematically placed full responsibility and blame on others that i felt choose poorly. I was not able to have compassion because of my understanding that they could and should have choose otherwise. When i later saw and understood that, for the most part, we are slaves to our conditioning (genetics, environment and our own unique experiences) , i realized that people could not choose otherwise than they did at that moment . I saw we all have different limitations that make 'could have' and 'should have' a hypothetical reality that is in the past and no longer exists. With that understanding i have no problem with forgiveness and i only have compassion for those who make unwise choices. It also to me, helped contribute to a more nonjudgmental attitude toward others and myself. They will still receive their reward/punishment for their action by society but i can forgive them because in effect to coin Jesus' phrase "they know not what they do" because if they really fully understood what they were doing , they would not have chosen unwisely. Joseph

Hello Shnarkle, Welcome to the community and do explore around here. There are many interesting topics to review and new ones to yet be started. I also find the Bible filled with wisdom and truth as i do also other books of a spiritual nature. Enjoy your quest for truth and may your journey be filled with awe and many blessings. Joseph

E, Free will has been debated for thousands of years and is still debated today. It is not a tenet of PC to hold a position or view either way. Whatever works at the time on your journey seems fine and i would not say either position is right or wrong. We all seem to agree we have choices in life. For me, believing our will is not truly 'free' makes compassion for others rise within me Steves question is this .... "So, for those of you who reject "free will", the question is this: Do you think it is possible for humans to liberate themselves from conditioned existence? Would this constitute "free will"? Asked another way, what would a human who possessed "free will" look like?" Speaking for myself , i think the natural order of things will insure over the course of time that people will be liberated from 'self'' .Also it seems to me it will be as a result of their conditioning and the evolutionary process. No, personally i don't think that constitutes 'free will' .. For the last question, i can't say for it is doubtful to me that such a state could be accurately described as human.or in labels used by humans. Joseph

E, You said to Rom.. "What I was saying is more like: I don’t want to do the dishes, but I do them anyways, or I don’t always want to get up or go to work, but I do. " Does doing something or choosing to do something that we don't particularly want to do make it 'free' will / choice? Your desire might be to not do the dishes but your thoughts may be telling you that you must, because you don't want them to pile up more than you want to not do them. (or some other reason) Is the choice really unimpeded by certain factors that would make it 'free' ? Perhaps not, if you are just merely choosing the greater want. Same with going to work, we may not want to go to work but our mind may be also telling us to go because the want of getting paid so we can eat or have money to spend is greater.. That's why i think Rom said "so what you are saying here Elen is that you have some wants that are stronger than others, are you not?" Based on that i think he is telling you that yes we can make choices. BUT are those choices limited by greater wants or other impediments ? If so, then they are not truly 'free' per se. Perhaps it is nice to think we truly have 'free will' and there may be even benefits socially in thinking we do, but maybe, true 'free will' , is more an illusion? just sayin... Joseph

To All PC's, While looking through a TCPC blog and musings of Jim Burklo who is an honary advisor at our Progressive Christianity .org homepage, I came across this short interesting article/post of his that i think every Progressive Christian might find interesting. Jim Burklo is an ordained United Church of Christ pastor who serves as the Associate Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California and is an honary advisor to Progressive Christianity.com among other things. Enjoy reading his post by clicking -------------------> HERE Afterwards, feel free to comment here in this thread with your thoughts on his post or make any additional points you think are related. Joseph

Rom, Yes how we perceive color seems like a valuable tool to reason with. Be Safe and return . Joseph

Yes E you are correct, satchbee is welcome in this community regardless of sexual orientation. We indeed do have others members here of all sexual orientations. Our Point 3 of our 8 points summarizes it and reads...... As PC's we.... Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to: Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, Believers and agnostics, Women and men, Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities, Those of all classes and abilities; Joseph

Yes, well said. To me also, Life itself is miraclulous. joseph

E, Thanks for your heartfelt response. There is never a need to agree with anything i say.as i do it in the spirit of sharing only . I speak as a member in my posts signed as Joseph and I encourage you not to put any confidence or credit in my position as senior member or administrator.( Just in case you might) We are all peers on this journey and inspiration can be found from the least expected places.or people. If someone says something that doesn't seem correct i try not to classify it as true or false but rather let it sit on the chance that i will remain open so that i am able to receive it directly if it is true at a later time when lifes experiences make me able. To your response concerning "people could not have chosen otherwise" , it seems to me that anyone of us could continue to look back and say "i should have" or "i could have" and we could beat ourselves to death 'so to speak' over it. Yet it seems to me pointless because that thinking is hypothetical and the reality is because of our limitations in the past (whether knowledge, understanding or emotional condition or etc,) at the time, we could not and did not choose differently. That to me is reality. And accepting that goes a long way to healing and forgiveness of self. After all who can say why we are made the way we are or what caused us to make the choices we did. Obviously in the scheme of things we are all accepted by the Whole or we would not exist. Acceptance of self and others as we are at times seems difficult but i would dare to say it has close ties to true Love (not as man defines love). Joseph