JosephM

Deborah, From my experience, more harm than good comes from trying to force others to wake up other than making available literature and encouraging others to seek and reason for themselves . Your approach above sounds most healthy to me. In my experience, people are drawn when they are ready and not before..... or as some Buddhists say... "when the pupil is ready, the teacher shall appear". Yes, i am still in touch with some fundamentalists including some family members. I don't really have a problem with them anymore or a desire to push things and i get along quite well because i understand the process in awakening which is very painful emotionally. One has to come to grips with the fact that one has been, in a sense, "duped" all their life and that is difficult for many to come to grips with, not to mention friendships that are then "taxed" in the name of religion during the process. Perhaps that is one of the reasons there is usually a lot of anger present. I do not have a goal per se, in trying or not trying. Other peoples beliefs or views are not a problem to me. At times they pose a challenge but never a problem as i have nothing to prove and am confident that as long as i remain available to others those things will sort themselves out.with the grace of God. Joseph

Well Deborah, My journey took me through 4 years of Bible College through correspondence and through the role of evangelist , prison minister, sunday school supereintendent and fill in pastor. Since i was conditioned to pass on what i was taught i can relate to the predicament that infects the fundamentalist since you could say i was also a propagator of passed down teachings and part of the "herd instinct". When one is blind, it is easy to lead the blind and in doing so, upon awakening by the grace of God, how can one have other than compassion for those still asleep. As Paul is recorded saying in the NT.... " For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" When one gets that understanding in their heart, it is easy to look beyond the messenger of ignorance. Simply put, it is easy to understand the plight of those who are essentially brain washed by" the story" when you were once also a partaker.. Joseph

Greetings Deborah, Welcome to the community. You weren't alone with those sometimes sleepless nights agonizing and days where past friends were okay with you as long as you bought the story or kept your views to yourself. It no longer disturbs me and i find i can accept them as they are even if i am rejected by them. Now whose got the love. Joseph

Yes, an excellent metaphor

Bill, As you know, the good thing here in Progressive Christianity is that nobody usually asks one to give anything to Jesus, the church, or have guilt. Thankfully, fundamentalism is behind you and as you say, you can let things play out and enjoy the ride.. Joseph

Yes, you did say that earlier and i merely include that benefit to intercessory prayer also for oneself especially when wishing another the best or sending positive thoughts. While i do see the value of some types of intercessory prayer benefiting the one being prayed for when it is asked for by them, i understand your reluctance to accept that since it doesn't "align" as you say, for you. My testimony would be different but that is my own experience. I have found personally as perhaps you have also ... that remaining open to the things we do not understand or presently doesn't align with our logic sometimes removes a barrier for experience that would otherwise remain closed. Just sayin...

Paul, Perhaps prayer works but not the way you might think it should? Mostly, i think we are transformed ourselves by it. As long as duality appears as reality there will be poor and starving people no matter how much food we send. And sending it is indeed a noble endeavor but it doesn't eliminate the cause of the suffering.

I think Christianity will find out that "Christ" has more to do with the spirit man (light) in each of us than the physical man Jesus just as "buddha" has more to do with an awakened one than the man Siddhartha Gautama.

Just some thoughts.... Is there a real need to reconstruct a Jesus? What does it really matter anyway? Don't we have teachings that we can test and prove for ourselves? it seems to me. we can study for a lifetime with all the scholars and build a wealth of head knowledge but to what avail? Isn't the basic message of all religions transformation? .... Walking in love, peace, forgiveness and the fruits. While it may be interesting to study ... will we ever know which scholar is right or wrong or will it add to the basic message accepted by most all? That message being loving God and ones neighbor as oneself ?

I think if one investigates science or more specifically quantum physics one will find as Enistein once said... “Everything in Life is Vibration” – Albert Einstein Positive vibrations are contagious. This can be experienced when around positive people. So are negative vibrations. Just hang around negative people long enough and you will experience first hand. Prayer doesn't have to be in words or misused to obtain something .Positive affirmations while they may be in the form of words and concepts, points to a reality far deeper than the words. While most prayer implies duality ( that there is a God and a me asking God ), in reality i believe you are an expression of God and therefore duality is an illusion. The deepest prayers are then when you and God merge (in Christ) and they are no longer prayers as such. Affirmations then become most powerful. I can hear Paul asking... if that is true then why are the starving Ethiopians still starving? ADVICE FROM ECHKART TOLLE..... All evils are the effect of unconsciousness. You can alleviate the effects of unconsciousness, but you cannot eliminate them unless you eliminate their cause. True change happens within, not without. If you feel called upon to alleviate suffering in the world, that is a very noble thing to do, but remember not to focus exclusively on the outer. Otherwise, you will encounter frustration and despair. Without a profound change in human consciousness, the world’s suffering is a bottomless pit. So don’t let your compassion become one-sided. Empathy with someone else’s pain or lack and a desire to help must be balanced with a deeper realization of the eternal nature of all life and the ultimate illusion of all pain. Then let your peace flow into whatever you do and you will be working on the levels of effect and cause simultaneously. Joseph

Wonnerful, Even Paul of the NT is recorded as admonishing us to "prove all things" whether through reason, personal experience or observation. The Buddha, similarly but in different words, is recorded saying.... “Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them. Kalama Sutta, AN 3.65] Joseph ( the bold my emphasis)

Nice post Paul, On the intercessory exclusion in your last sentence, it seems to me there is a benefit of wishing the best for the other when done as intercessory prayer. It seems to me from experience when we wish the best or send positive thoughts to another through prayer that we receive or draw what we give. Perhaps this is because we are all connected and the separation between us is an illusion of mind. .

In short, i think prayer "is a simple, normal activity of the mind and heart of everyone who desires to be a better person, to understand life and living, and to live more richly" While it may be mis-used by many, i have found it transforming and strengthening for myself. This seems to me to be applicable whether it is intercessory for someone else or for myself. Experience has shown it beneficial to my attitude, emotions, psyche and personal well being. To me it makes a difference. I can not speak for others. Perhaps some approach it negatively? Joseph

wonnerful, One can indeed come to many different conclusions and understandings when entering into scholarly study.I have had my fair share. Personally, i think many scholars make the PC walk too complicated as i insinuated earlier. To me the message is simple so that a fool would not err. I certainly don't accept the NT as the word of God so i read it and attempt to neither accept or reject what i read. I watch and wait for my own personal experience to shed light on what i read. I figure that if these writers were inspired and the record is accurate then i can also be inspired to come to the truth when i am ready. For me that light seems to shine best when when i remove my preconceived opinions and views and those of the multitude of scholars that try to sway me by mere scholarly words. What written, is true, and what written is not true? That is the question. The answer to me is none of it until it is quickened in my spirit/heart by experiencing life for myself. I am not one to follow another writer just because he/she is well respected or has scholarly credentials. I will listen but if i can't receive for myself it means nothing to me. It is not a conundrum to me because i refuse to be led by others without my own experience verifying it and besides i do not see myself as an intellectual believer.in matters of God. Joseph

Everyone has an opinion, even so called scholars. As you know, the NT can be taken in many different ways. Since the times have changed as you say where there is no requirement to worship a ruler, why try to apply those "dying a martyr" writings to our times if they are no longer applicable? I think the message of dying from Jesus and Paul was more about dying to self interests (ego) and living to manifest the fruits of the spirit which benefit all mankind. We don't need more people dying physically for a cause but rather to self interests so that love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and the like can live and change lives. It seems to me one can make the writings complicated and say whatever one wants, to the exclusion of others verses, but to me, the overwhelming message is clear and simple. Things like "forgiveness" , "loving others as yourself", "thinking on things of good report" (avoiding negativity) etc. Just my thoughts, Joseph

fatherman, That is a very perplexing question that i have struggled with myself. Since we most likely don't know what is best for them, it seems to me it is good just to ask that they be given wisdom to see clearly for them self or send positive thoughts their way wishing them the best. Personally, i surrender by praying in the spirit (in the form of tongues) sometimes not even knowing what i am saying but feeling a sense that it is the correct intercessory prayer. Other times i actually understand bits of what i am saying and sometimes on rarer occasions, i pray through and get an answer to the persons request. ie: In your example whether or not they will get the job.

Bill, I have nothing to tell your brother-in-law. I do not understand how healing works. I do not advise people to take or not take medical treatment. I only know that when someone comes to me and says they are seeking healing from God that there are times when i know in advance that they are ready to receive it and i feel an unction to allow compassion to flow...so to speak... so that a healing takes place in them. I don't know how i know... just that i know and a feeling of knowing without doubt swells up within me and something happens in them that i can feel as if there is no separation between us. Sometimes i can just declare it and it is done, sometimes i feel led to touch them and sometimes i feel led to ask them to do something. I have experienced 4 of the gifts the NT speaks of so i accept them as true being the gift of tongues, the word of knowledge, the gift of faith and the gift of healing. While i remain ignorant of the why and how, never-the-less they are true to me and work through me (or in spite of me ). Joseph

Bill, I certainly have no argument with the statistics. Everyone is not healed that is prayed for but that does not change the fact that some are. Nor does it say that healing is not available. I personally wouldn't attempt to answer the reason why. I would only testify that there is a gift of healing and that when one is, so to speak, ' tuned to that power' and an unction (as in a spiritual fervor) is present, a force of sorts flows and healing most often, in my experience, happens. For me to say more would be speaking from my lack of knowledge. Joseph

TheseDryBones, One will never know for sure til it happen to them. I do NOT share the fundamentalist doctrine and i do not understand how healing works but as with your friend, i have experienced the same. In my experience, having a single or multiple gift doesn't imply head knowledge or that ones doctrine and dogma are anymore than conditioned or programmed beliefs. Joseph

Rom, For something to be atta, (self) it needed three components. It had to have complete control over the body, feelings, thoughts, impulses, intentions, consciousness, or perceptions. It had to be permanent. And it had to be blissful. In his discourse, the Buddha makes it clear that nothing in our psycho-physical experience has these three qualities and is therefore fit to be regarded as an atta or self. The Buddha is not recorded saying there is no Self but rather that the self we identify as myself with our thoughts, feelings, consciousness, volition, personal characteristics, or with a sense of continuity is not self (atta). He emphasized the suffering that can come with clinging to anything as belonging to or defining “myself". The Buddha’s path of practice reportedly leads to the ending of this clinging. The Buddha’s teaching points away from looking for the self, or trying to understand or improve the self. Instead it suggests that we pay attention to the fear, desire, ambition, and clinging that motivate the building of self identity. Joseph

Bill, Doesn't sound all that unfamiliar to what you might hear from many progressive Christians. Michael Dowd himself, being a Progressive Christian minister. I have a personally autographed book of his called "Thank God for Evolution" that i was given however i had only skimmed through it as it seemed to encompass too much detail for my simple mind. My brother a UU member and retired teacher had Dowd as a speaker at their church in Johnson City , TN. My brother was quite impressed by Mr Dowd. Joseph

That seems to me to always be the limiting case "our capacities to perceive reality" Which of course is a possible reason to constantly update our words to be used as pointers to more accurately reflect what we wish to have perceived. Joseph

Perhaps there are more universes or parallel universes. Creation and all that it entails would seem to encompass it better.

Welcome Terri, That's quite a site and conference. Thanks for the introduction and welcome to the forum. Joseph

One could always consider the simplistic option that says God and creation are one and define God as Being itself. God by that definition requires no proof, as "being" is self-evident. Joseph