JosephM

Nice one Burl

I would agree. Being subjective (sentient) creatures it would certainly in my mind seem natural to operate with labels that are merely demarcation lines based on a myriad of personal factors. Perhaps knowing this helps us to see the lines for what they are so that we can approach grace as a way of life. Though i don't personally see polar opposites , as to me, even grace is on a continuum with unmerited favor being on one end and merited favor on the other with each putting ones own demarcation line somewhere on that line and calling it grace.

I think the point made is evidenced by PC here changing the 1st of the 8 points to eliminate the word God and substitute it with the Sacred, Oneness and the Unity of all life. Many at the time here found it somewhat offensive yet it was announced at the time that PC will probably continue to evolve and there probably would be more changes in the future to more accurately describe Progressive Christianity. This was not meant to orphan those who had found some sense of community and a more free expression of views outside fundamental Christianity. However, in some cases it seems to me it has and such seems the inevitable unavoidable case where there is change. Personally i still choose to use the word with a different meaning than most traditional Christians and as far as language goes even the author of the article commented " I also readily acknowledge this is the place to which I have only tentatively arrived; and, for the time being, along the way. This is what I now understand. " I think that speaks well for both the individual and Progressive Christianity and hopefully people will have benefited by taking something useful from their time spent here if even only for a short time in their journey. Joseph

This Weeks Recap at ProgressiveChristianity.org

Jen, I think we have had enough of personal attacks. You don't have to agree with Paul's view, his apology or any others view or the way Admin runs this forum but you will keep your remarks limited to your views, why you disagree with another view, or why you agree without targeting the person as in Post #73, and other posts in this thread. If you have any complaints with this forum or its leadership, enter them in the complaints section and lets keep debates on the subject rather than on criticizing a particular person. Enough said as you have been warned in private before. Type of Posts not welcome here. JosephM (as Admin)

Greetings Rom, The people or person(s) who question your presence here or that may find you threatening certainly do not speak for Progressive Christianity as defined by ProgressiveChristianity .org or this site. The current 8 points speak for this site and as you know Point 3 seems to me to include you By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who… 1. Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life; 2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey; 3. Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to: Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, Believers and agnostics, Women and men, Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities, Those of all classes and abilities; 4. Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe; 5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes; 6. Strive for peace and justice among all people; 7. Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth; 8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love. Also as Paul pointed out in another thread and Bishop Spong , who is an honorary adviser here at progressiveChristianity.org says in one of his thesis "Theism is dead" says "Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. God can no longer be understood with credibility as a Being, supernatural in power, dwelling above the sky and prepared to invade human history periodically to enforce the divine will. So, most theological God-talk today is meaningless unless we find a new way to speak of God." and "Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. " Now we certainly do not require or ask people here to believe either way or even agree with Bishop Spong but we do ask all to feel free to share their views and welcome them as long as they keep any attacks or arguments pointed towards views rather than an individual. Personally i do not find your views threatening or unwelcome here. Perhaps not all feel that way but that is the problem not of this site but rather of those who may feel that way. Perhaps they might answer your questions in this thread? Joseph

This Weeks Recap at Progressive Christianity . org

Good one Paul, I no longer choose to believe nor disbelieve. All i know is now and the question of a physical afterlife is irrelevant to me. "i" am temporary but "I" am without beginning or end whether in this form, another , or no form, that is all i know. Eternal life in the future seems to me a hope for those who are attached to the nature of physical life as an identifiable self that they want to continue or be improved. I have no such hope in what we identify as self but rather steadfastness in Life itself which requires no such identity. i have been privileged to experience no time nor locality nor sense of self and in it i rest in peace. In the fullness of time it seems to me perhaps all may awaken to this reality. If not nothing is really lost. Joseph

This weeks Recap at Progressive Christianity .org which includes article on Progressive Christianity on the concept of hell

This Weeks Progressive Christianity.org Weekly recap

Hi Matty, You are not alone in your journey and in much of your present understanding. I share a similar belief concerning the person of Jesus...... aren't we all equally part of the whole in that if one part is God then then all parts are God. How can any that have life be separate from the One Life that which gives each life? Welcome to the forum , Joseph

This Weeks Progressive Christianity . org Weekly Recap

To me, no, still not a belief though some might argue that point) merely a self evident fact using the best language i am presently able to communicate with as an abstract concept. Changing my communications language doesn't change my experience.

To me, the "Source" does not require a belief but rather is self-evident. If you 'see' me you have seen the "Source". If you perceive anything, you have seen the "Source". Source is All in All . The substrate of reality as is. Is Source intelligent? Not applicable! My 2 cents, Joseph

Derek, From your post, i recall having a special moment from a writing ascribed to Paul in Romans of the NT which goes like this.. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. I remember looking up the word "renewing" in Greek when traced back to the root word Anakaluto which means to unveil or uncover (by drawing back a veil) This renewing of mind is not by programming with something new but rather removing the veil that is covering. Very similar to concept of removing views or preconceived concepts and opinions

oops ... so sorry... next time i'll read more carefully.... thanks for clarifying for me.

Thank you UK. The US record is not bad either. Seriously, i would politely differ concerning the answer to hunger 'food' if that's what you really meant. (i'm guessing) i don't think its that simple. While i also want to see no one to go hungry and i contribute to such a goal, i have come to consider that food alone will only create more hunger and i am part of the problem. Population 101: When a population lives in an ideal environment with no predators, no disease, and unlimited resources (such as food), that population will show a type of growth pattern called exponential growth. In my view, IF that population is educated and realizes the limitations of resources and other related things and acts within the scope of that knowledge that would sustains a healthy population, i think exponential growth would not continue. It seems to me that large populations especially concentrated promotes, food shortages, crime, and other societal problems that would be at least more manageable with some form of population control. It may not make people happy to limit the number of children or where they can live but if we don't do something the problems will get worse and ..... The consequences of Nature will step in and it may not be pleasant. Tom, interesting post. Perhaps the tendency for more children is subconscious as you might suggest with the poor. And yes i would agree that Capitalism unbridled prospers the rich at the expense of the poor and uneducated. Soma, Good point on 3rd world country and their reason for more children (SS system)

Perhaps both positions are just from a different perspective but the end seems agreeable in the manifestations or fruit. As Paul of Galatians wrote But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. It seems the word spiritual means different things to different folks but that most everyone recognizes the manifestations we relate to as we become more aware of the spirit that exists in all.

Derek, Yes,if i were, i would no doubt be no different than the other. Still, from where i stand i am willing to help and with our advancements in all the areas concerning agriculture, medicine, etc i don't think we would see a repeat of hunger like you posted above if population were kept in check barring any great wars or new diseases beyond our scope of medicine. But who can say for sure of the future? PS HERE is a good example of overpopulation that money alone will not fix

Tom, I really like the Spong quote in your signature. Joseph

Derek, It does even to me appear to be a multidimensional problem with no simple easy answer. There are many factors as you have mentioned that contribute. Still i wonder if the root of the problem is not mostly due to basic overpopulation as we sometimes see in the animal kingdom which in time maintains a natural balance. In the US we now have births by minorities and single family mothers that can least afford feeding their children that outnumber the majority. Sure human greed and a lack of resolve to solve contributes to the problem. We do have the technology and resources already present to feed the world even in times of floods and droughts. But if, population continues to explode beyond our ability to support it, it seems to me, nature will seek a balance even among humans through starvation, disease and other means. Otherwise we will have to join Elon Musk's goal which is retirement on Mars.

Soma recently said in a post. This got me to thinking.... What is the real problem that keeps hunger alive? While i believe we have the resources so that none should go hungry in the world and i am now and have been for many years a part of some large organizations that give monthly to feed the children and families of the world, the problem of hunger persists. Not long ago i wrote to one company called Child Fund International in which i sponsor a number of children. They use the money to help provide food to feed , clothed and shelter and provide medical to children and families from some of the poorest countries around the world. Some families i helped support had 4 children or more and over time i noticed they started having additional children which they could not support by themselves. I wrote because i was concerned that the real issue was overpopulation and all the money in the world buying food would not solve it. Why, because while i wanted to help the food problem without action on the part of the recipients, i was actually contributing to more hunger. I was told that while we could help with food and medicine we were limited in that procreation training was beyond the scope of our giving and there was nothing they could do. Obviously, i was not pleased. In my view, i could see giving all your money to feed the poor will not solve the problem of poverty. That is no reason not to give but it seems to me that if people continue to procreate beyond the means they have of supporting children the poor will always be with us and perhaps the money could be better spent. Education and an enforcement policy to limit population seems to me to be more important than just feeding everyone. What do you think?

Wish i could say wherever i am or always but i find the experience of community most prevalent when i am associating with others of like interest or hobbies such as golf, cigar club activities, eating out with friends, spending time working with or helping neighbors, birthday parties/social events, watching movies with friends, biweekly nickle/dime/quarter poker games and participating on this forum.

Welcome Tom, Did the rounds similar to what you have posted (ordained minister and haven't attended church since 2002 except when grandchildren are preforming in their church) . Been made unwelcome in the fundamental organized church system.ever since publishing literature contrary to much accepted doctrine and dogma in mainline Christian churches of that time.which included Baptist, Pentecostal, and Assembly of God , Hope you find the support and fellowship here to continue your journey and are apprehended by that which you have always been seeking. Joseph

Welcome Matthew, Your thinking.. "that how you live is much more important than what you believe" is not only an important tenet of Progressive Christianity but in my view a real step toward progress in anyone's journey. You aren't alone in your posted beliefs and i am certain you will not only meet like minded individuals here but also be challenged with the views and thoughts of others. Again welcome to the forum, Joseph