JosephM

Paul, I think a middle of the road approach is fine. Limit numbers and do background checks. I also would require a minimal learning of the language of our land for permanent citizenship. I don't think we are advocating isolationism here as many say as we benefit from immigration but I think open borders would be a disaster and is not what the majority here want and for much of the reason you mentioned. Many California residents want open borders but I still don't understand the reasoning unless it is their immigration now citizen population doing the talking along with some who just don't mind or see any problems with it.

Paul, Perhaps we do have control , howbeit, limited control at least until we surrender them.

I think we form our beliefs not only influenced by environmental influences and genetics but also by our own individual experiences. The primary direction of our beliefs seems to follow our subjective perceptions of reality which in my view are highly slanted by our own emotional desires and changing social values both passed down and learned which are all illusory at best. It is my view that our beliefs can progress by exposing that which is false through study, reasoning and logic but only to a degree. The end result coming to to a point where reason, logic and intelligence will take us no further in our belief system and enough falsehoods have been exposed to allow that which has always been present for existence to exist to be exposed or reveal itself. In essence God. In my experience there is then no further need for a religious belief system. Yes, it may have been a tenet of a religious teaching system that helped one to this point but it was the shedding of beliefs that exposed that which can be experienced but not proved. To me, it is evident that all one can actually see in the world are differences and preferences and that it is the result of a dualistic perception. An illusion that has held one captive and reduced God to a concept or label in a world filled with imaginary opposites that reveal themselves as mere arbitrary mentations. To me, There is nothing wrong with the world. It merely is what it is at this instant. Joseph

Sorry Thormas. I didn't mean to be rude by not responding to your comments to my first post. I didn't have any response to it or require any clarification to your comments. it was fine. My 2 nd post was in response to your post directly above it referenced (your last post - it was to Rom) in my first sentence. I have been reading all the posts with interest. To me, i find the illusory nature of our perceptions (even though it may not be shared by many others here except perhaps Rom) a very important piece of understanding to a spiritual walk. To me it seems that perception is an impersonal quality of consciousness or one might say an impersonal quality of Divinity expressed as awareness and is nondualistic and nonlinear. Form to me is an expression of the potentiality of that consciousness as it evolved as an aspect of Creation. In my experience to see reality one must transcend (or see the collapse of the illusions of duality). Duality in my experience is created by perceptions, To me, they (perceptions) obscure Divinity and make things appear separate when in truth, they are not. But all that may require much explaining and may be better left to another thread if there is interest since this one is in regard to animals sharing in the more and beyond. ? Joseph

Thormas, It seems to me, you you make his point in your last post. Since we can only view reality subjectively through our perceptions, (not objectively) we can say that "things are not exactly what they seem". Hence they are illusory in nature even though we might find two or more in agreement otherwise. WHEN you woke up this morning, you found the world largely as you left it. You were still you; the room in which you awoke was the same one you went to sleep in. The outside world had not been rearranged. History was unchanged and the future remained unknowable. In other words, you woke up to reality. But what is reality? The more we probe it, the harder it becomes to comprehend. Whatever reality is, it isn't what it seems. https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/reality/ Here is just one bit from the new scientist ------------------------------------------------------- WHEN Albert Einstein finally completed his general theory of relativity in 1916, he looked down at the equations and discovered an unexpected message: the universe is expanding. Einstein didn’t believe the physical universe could shrink or grow, so he ignored what the equations were telling him. Thirteen years later, Edwin Hubble found clear evidence of the universe’s expansion. Einstein had missed the opportunity to make the most dramatic scientific prediction in history. How did Einstein’s equations “know” that the universe was expanding when he did not? If mathematics is nothing more than a language we use to describe the world, an invention of the human brain, how can it possibly churn out anything beyond what we put in? “It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here,” wrote physicist Eugene Wigner in his classic 1960 paper “The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences” (Communications on Pure and Applied Mathematics, vol 13, p 1). The prescience of mathematics seems no less miraculous today. At the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland, physicists recently observed the fingerprints of a particle that was arguably discovered 48 years ago lurking in the equations of particle physics. How is it possible that mathematics “knows” about Higgs particles or any other feature of physical reality? “Maybe it’s because math is reality,” says physicist Brian Greene of Columbia University, New York ----------------------------------------------- While we can say the universe is real, science points to present evidence that it is clearly not what it seems. Some theories hold that reality and consciousness are one and the same. Is the universe really all inside your head? Many great minds find it difficult to dispute that consciousness is all there is. While i am agnostic on this subject , from my experience, i also find it difficult to dispute and have found a level of comfort in uncertainty. Joseph

Thormas, Your posts need to be quote formatted more like Rom's. It is difficult for the reader to determine who said what. Perhaps one of these links will help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style https://permies.com/t/47106/post-quotes-illustrated-guide https://www.peakprosperity.com/faq/forum-quotes Joseph

For me, it is part of everything. seen and unseen . It is difficult to describe except to say it can be experienced as a feeling described as home without location , peace and the perception of oneness (or non-separation) with it. Is being existence ? ..... perhaps one could say being encompasses existence but i am neither a philosopher or scientist nor master of words to say.

ground of being - The substrate of being

It seems to me we each experience the world through our perceptions, biases, and according to our experiences. In other words we experience the world subjectively. We both may look at the same thing or situation but see it differently. In that respect one might say we are looking at the world differently and for at least one of us or both of us the world may "not be as it seems" or illusory. On this forum we talk about President Trump but we each seem to see him in a different light. Our subjective nature makes reality far from objective in this case. Burl's niece is having a baby and that maybe a joyful experience for some and an unwanted experience for others . The reality of it is colored by ones perceptual experience of it. To me, to see Reality means to see clearly, unobstructed by the concepts that thought superimposes on our experience. I find this very difficult. Perhaps because many of us are unaware or at times forget that our experience is filtered through a mesh of conceptual thinking that may make it appear very different from how it actually is. Just sayin ?

Thormas, When it is said Reality is an illusion, it means "not as it seems". I think you will find Rom has mentioned that more than once in his posts. Here is an example of what many scientist are saying .... --------------------------------- Quantum physicists are discovering facts about the world that we would never have thought to be possible. The scientific breakthroughs that have taken place in the last few years are as significant to our understanding of reality as Copernicus’s outline of the solar system. The problem? Many of us simply do not understand quantum physics. And this all began roughly a hundred years ago, when physicists began challenging the assumption that the physical space and universe that we see around us is actually “real”. Scientists decided that to prove that reality was not, in fact, simply an illusion, they had to discover the “point particle”, and this would be accomplished with innovations like the Large Hadron Collider. This machine was initially built to smash particles into one another, and this is where they made the greatest discovery: the physical world is not as physical as we believe. Reality is an illusion as we see it. Instead, everything around us is just energy. ------------------------------- Even Buddists say " life is an illusion" “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Gautama Buddha In Hinduism, the prominent belief is that samsara is a feature of a life based on illusion (maya). Illusion enables a person to think s/he is an autonomous being instead of recognizing the connection between one's self and the rest of reality. Believing in the illusion of separateness that persists throughout samsara leads one to act in ways that generate karma and thus perpetuate the cycle of action and rebirth. People: Albert Einstein "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." also "Time is an illusion" etc. etc

" 'The world is real.' 'No, it, is a mere illusory appearance.' 'The world is conscious.' 'No.' 'The world is happiness.' 'No.' What use is it to argue thus? That State is agreeable to all, wherein, having given up the objective outlook, one knows one's Self and loses all notions either of unity or duality, of oneself and the ego." Ramana Maharshi The world is nothing more than an embodiment of the objects perceived by the five sense-organs. Since, through these five sense-organs, a single mind perceives the world, the world is nothing but the mind. Apart from the mind can there be a world? Ramana Maharshi

Rom, With the exception of Fox news, it is my perception that the democrats control most of the major US newspapers and the news. I'll give you Trump is unorthodox and doesn't follow normal politician etiquette but he has more support here than reported and especially a large following here in Florida which is among the top states where resides retired people of age 55+. His support is from more than isolationists and extremists who are labeled with the "deplorables" tag coined by Hillary and some democrats. ? If i were from Canada or another country and read the news as reported i would share your view of him. However i am not so i don't and i am okay with his progress and direction so far amid the swamp, which some might call a corrupted cesspool, i perceive we have in part operating in Washington DC.

Rom, Thanks for your answer. I guess we can't please everyone but it is interesting to see how foreigners think about it or see it and what their understanding is from the news they read.

I personally don't see controls on our borders and immigration checks and limits as isolationism. I view it as being wise at this time. Perhaps you are stretching it a bit with the word isolationism? On the second statement i was looking for your answer not mine. We could always remove the word "should" if it pleases you and ask what you are in favor of and why?

Rom, News is often slanted and gives a perception that may not be true by stating a truth but failing to mention associated pertinent data. Perhaps with some research one might find that Nasa's Carbon Monitoring system is redundant and monitoring will continue with NOAA and their "Global Greenhouse Gas Reference Network" among others. Just Perhaps. Joseph

Rom, Do you think helping foreigners should be the charter of the government or left to the individual? And Why?

No, not at all. It is a highly controversial subject even among physicists. The flow of time doesn't prove reality as it is made up of human memories or a succession of snapshots that without we would have no notion of time. Its basic properties come from our mental state rather than the physical world. "We can portray our reality as either a three-dimensional place where stuff happens over time," said Massachusetts Institute of Technology physicist Max Tegmark, "or as a four-dimensional place where nothing happens [‘block universe’] — and if it really is the second picture, then change really is an illusion, because there's nothing that's changing; it's all just there — past, present, future. It seems to me it remains an open view/opinion rather than demanding we accept time as reality and not illusion because a plant or animal appears to develop.

Rom, Most here in my community support the elected president. We don't place much weight on what the main stream media reports. It seems too much of the news is policticly motivated.

Just curious. There have been a number of people in the US that seem to advocate "open borders". I don't know exactly what they mean by that but i would like to understand their thinking on what seems like a radical move to me. Anyone here that is in favor of such or understands the thinking on such a concept to explain? Joseph

I don't know but i suspect the word "idea" is not applicable as are the words "more or less" for there to be a comparison. I would speculate that the animal experiences life without the dichotomy of our mind and language. Having said that, from a human language standpoint as i have said all creation experiences the 'more' howbeit not all are consciously aware or make the differentiation.. Joseph

Paul, Addressing for those who think there may be 'more to this life' part of your question, i would personally say definitely yes. Everything shares in this 'more' without exception as evidenced by by its presence as one. Is everyone consciously aware of this? In my experience, No. Joseph

Thomas, Yes. as i said "To me the weakness inherent in religions ( not necessary all these in all religions) " was typo should have read (not necessarily all these in all religions)

Well, taken a bit out of context of what i said, but okay.

I have personally found that progress seemed to come often after some degree of individual or societal pain or suffering. We often (but not always) learn from our mistakes which often have repercussions that trigger what many would call pain and suffering in our life. It seems to me it is mostly self created but nevertheless present until we transcend the anguish of the mind wherein i perceive lies the real suffering. To me the weakness inherent in religions ( not necessary all these in all religions) could be its use of fear, reason seeking, separation such as we and them, requiring proselytizing, requiring an organization, and too many rules, controls, programming and fixed opinions. Religion has in the past and in some even in the present often preaches love and violence in the same sentence. Love for those within the group and violence for those without. Joseph

Personally, i have found religion to be a stepping stone to that which is beyond it. In that sense, it has been a positive influence in spite of its perceived (to me) inherent weakness. It seems to me that religion presents a dichotomy between itself and that which goes past the words, laws and rituals that i have experienced. As a stepping stone it seems to me to be a positive influence but to remain in its social structure can, and as history has show to me, lead to what i consider negative , howbeit perhaps necessary pain and suffering for society to, through experiences, break away from and evolve. Joseph