JosephM

Paul makes it pretty clear in more than 1 book of the NT. AND .... If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Jesus did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Jesus did not abolish but he did fulfill . (Look it up in the Greek) When a new testament is made, it is customary to remove the old one so as not to confuse the heirs. Unfortunately , many try to keep the Old one in the case of the OT and NT for more than just historical data and in my view to their detriment. Joseph PS If the law was fulfilled in Christ then why would you still want to live under the bondage of it by trying to fullfill that which was already fulfilled.

Yes, i would agree with that also. Sin is a product of man. It is he who creates his own or agrees to live by the laws of the Bible whether written or unwritten and then violates them himself that is cursed (so to speak). It seems to me to be a natural product of evolution we pass through. Many of the reported teachings of Jesus showed a way to put aside the self and live a sin free life free from the law and its condemnation. In my view, many Christians give lip service that they live in the New Covenant. In my experience they fail to realize they don't live under the law or any so called original sin. Nor do they need to create their own laws through judging and measuring others resulting in a life of living in an Old Testament Covenant reality which is in my view, a self created curse leading to guilt and its consequences in the present time. (Self created sin, guilt and condemnation, which may be conscious or unconscious) Joseph

Paul, the reason i suspect other forms of life do not have that problem, at least the ones i am familiar with is it is exclusive in my experience to those forms of intelligent life that have taken on the illusion of self. One who has separated himself from ego or in the case of lower life forms not developed one is free from guilt which is a result of sin which is not a particular act but rather the result of making internal laws that puts oneself under them by ones constant measuring and judging of others. (Eating from the tree of good and evil) I don't believe animals look at things as good and evil.

Anyone or thing whether person, animal, or what one might consider a lower form of life that measures or judges others of their kind with condemnation in my view needs saving from the guilt and condemnation it reeks on themself. Do forms of life other than man have such a problem? I don't know. but i suspect not. ? Just my 2cents, Joseph

I would not share that conclusion as i see the word perfect meaning in the eyes of God without sin. If one does not measure or judge the other one will be neither measured or judged. It is a spiritual truth as in reality one would be merely judging oneself and bringing condemnation on oneself. We are free from the law of sin and death. Without the law sin is dead and not imputed and in Christ we are delivered from the law. By faith i am made perfect. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world but rather to show a way to walk perfect before God.

I think one could biblically say to judge someone is synonymous with measuring especially in the reported teachings of Jesus. Judgement to me is measuring one against one's own or perhaps a society created standard commonly held. Since it is subjective in nature and not necessarily the same for all societies or individuals for all time i see it as the justification for wars and many atrocities which precedes suffering. Hence the advice for one not to measure or judge others lest we are found in condemnation of self.

Well said possibility. It seems to me that the recognition concerning judgement is a powerful catapult in ones journey so to speak. Also the recognition of the potentially in all of us for behavior that we might have once used to separate ourself by judgement. One could say Hitler could be then no other than he was nor can we. Understanding such things in my view leads to forgiveness of others and self to the point that one sees there is nothing to forgive because we then walk in that spirit of love that forgives prior to any perceived incicident that might have been perceived to require such.

Yes , there may or may not be interaction. For me there is. Retired and living in The Villages Fl. Just celebrated my 50th wedding anniversary with wife and grown children and grandkids and 1 great grandchild and another on the way. We are here in Hilton Head South Carolina for a week. Leaving tomorrow. Wife and children do not share my perspective but that is not a problem. From my perspective, there seems to be nothing to sell. Each in their own time so to speak. Whatever unfolds , unfolds, and the dance continues. Each to the portion which one has been given. It seems to me Joseph Campbell has created his own danger that doesn't exist as i read his words. When the consciousness of what appears as a single individual is lifted, all are affected by that energy field (level) even without perceived interaction. Of course this will appear proposterous to one who might believe we are not connected without visible interaction.

I guess the difference if any is there are no more questions so to speak. There is no "where to" from here also. There is nothing to accomplish and there is nothing wrong with the world. Yes , it appears I still feed the poor, support orphans, recycle recyclables, drive an electric car etc. but those are just things that happen as a consequence of consciousness. I am doing nothing. There is no relationship in absolute realty because to have a relationship there must be subject and object. It is the self that is creating the confusion and tough questions you mention and it is as you have already experienced but an illusion. Joseph

I don't think people have to do anything. I believe it is an evolutionary occurrence . It is there already for everyone but it's realization is not. Perhaps one could say at this time it appears a good portion of humanity is asleep and in the process of awaking. I don't think i have developed anything for myself. It seems to be there and is in my experience more a finding of that which has always been there. Nothing has really changed except you could say there is no one here seeking anything anymore and just a deeper peace present that was not experienced in earlier years.

It seems to me it is helpful to realize that there is no i identity that is seeing, seeking or doing anything but rather an impersonal aspect of consciousness doing the exploring. I see the mind and its contents as a product of the world.Thoughts come in streams and are to me not personal and for that matter neither is the body. Both are a product of the temporal world. If the mind is closely observed for some length of time it is my experience that one will realize that one is the witness and experiencer of the mind and its thoughts and body senses only rather than being the body or mind itself. It breaks the identification of self with mind as i. This seems to move the point of observation from what is being witnessed to that of witnessing. This leads to a realization that the experiencing is not being done by a who or a what or someone ( self) but rather that something is functioning as an impersonal observer/experiencer which is unchanged by the content of that which is experienced. The contents of the mind is form but to be visible it has to occur against a background of non-form just as sound must be against a background of silence. to be perceived. The background seems to me to be a field of consciousness and is formless. It is illuminated by light which we might call pure awareness or God.

Thomas, What i am trying to say is that those questions are in my experience non questions from an absolute reality point of view.. The why can be answered simply as because that is the nature of absolute reality. That of course is to most a non-answer or unsuitable or just raises more un-answerable questions and answers ad infin . Logic and reason cannot answer the why either. It either becomes circular, or regressive. It seems to me too many assumptions will be made by the hearer with any word answer to get even a close picture. Perhaps that is why parables are used and words like " the kingdom is likened to " because only pointing can occur in such words. PS Yes, you could say i still eat, sleep, etc but that is my role in this unfolding and more like a dream as one can see it is temporary, impermanent like a vapor that appears for a short while. I know i am not that and that neither are you..

You ask why repeatedly as have many before you . But the question you ask has been in my view, unanswerable from the standpoint of a provable answer. There is neither questions nor answers in my radical subjective experience of reality. All is silent, known and all questions disappear. All is formless and experienced as perfect and complete. There are no answers or questions to construct. Everything is as it is. Of course as humans we seem to be disappointed in the lack of suitable answers to these type of questions. ?

?

Thomas, Everything is complete in reality and the Absolute doesn't change . Change is the illusion of time and space. God is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow. You won't understand it through conceptualizing from the view of an individual self , space and time. That's all i can say. It is not a belief . It is perceived from a radical subjective experience of the Divine and i can only point . I know that is not the answer you are looking for but that is the best i can do in this moment. PS That's probably enough of this deep stuff ? Artificial intelligence can raise questions, perhaps you are a computer subroutine?

It was just an analogy but perhaps the self is so caught up in the illusion of self that it doesn't realize it is just a movie nor that it is not reality. Kind of like lost in a dream. The producer is the One and it need not have a purpose. It is part of the dance of creation. Also i am certainly not saying there is not suffering. As long as the illusion of self remains, there will be suffering. Without the self there is pain as long as the body remains but there is an end to suffering. Same as in New Jerusalem spoken of in Christianity. The kingdom of God is here now even though few may see it or not enter in. There is no fiction in Absolute. That is the problem with words. When we answer one question that is best put aside, inferences are taken and there is confusion. Everything is already perfect as it is and in reality it is complete but don't try and mix reality with time and space and duality for answers because you will not find them.

I guess we forgot we were suppose to to sell something. ? About 9 active members last month some months as high as 14-21 . Mostly people use our database for research purposes. I think people outgrow us and others seem to flock to Facebook and other social media or religious forums where members are allowed to get more heated in debate and nasty to each other in their posts. .Guest visits average between 5 and 10 at any time with as high as 90 or more in a 15 min period

Welcome Mark, Not religious.... yes that is cool. Welcome to the forum of progressive Christianity that welcomes all ideas and opinions that are expressed as such in a respectful way. Joseph

Perhaps it can't be accomplished in duality, time and space. Perhaps one must must let go of all concepts to get beyond them. In my view understanding is not a requirement even though i would agree it sometimes may make it easier. One can only go so far with reason and logic. Enlightenment seems to me more a letting go rather than an accumulation of knowledge. As i mentioned in another thread, one of the things i see as obscuring ones realization is the axiom/positionality or belief that 'The mind is capable of recognizing and comprehending truth from falsehood' . I do not believe it is capable. Truth , which is always there is not learned. Rather it is seen or one could say illuminated when enough of that which is false is discarded. In my view, self-enlightenment is the dissolution of self not the self becoming enlightened. I didn't see that contradiction you mention as it said itself (absolute changeless Reality) alone is . All else is make believe fiction... meaning the self is not. The self sustaining itself is fiction. It does not exist except as a manifestation of creation conceptualized in time and space. You want to know what or who is doing the fabrication. . Its creation. Its a manifestation of the evolution of consciousness. When you ask me if there is a self or no self i say no self but it is best to avoid the question as inferences will be drawn that only lead to stress and a Buddhist might say to suffering. It might help to picture life as a movie and you are attached to a character in it so that you believe you are both that character and separate from the others. The reality being you are neither separate nor that character. Though It appears real enough with the drama of people dying , starving, and smitten by countless struggles and suffering, no one really dies and the many are in reality One and shines as Absolute Being. Perhaps part of the story.

Thomas, I believe i referenced the site so one can read more . I do not represent myself as a Buddhist though i find many similarities in my experiences. I was offering a read of the site to Rom because of some of his comments on Buddhists. You ask who is deluded .... in a previous post i said basically that self is an illusion. Buddhism as i referenced speaks of it as a delusion from some of its oldest manuscripts. (Pali Canon) Man is phenomenon. In reality there is no one there as self. self to me is an illusion. I can't help you understand no-self. Your questions are founded in duality and time and space and materiality . Absolute reality / God / The unconditioned seems to me can only be radically subjectively experienced from that view rather than conceptualized.. Allow life to happen.

Rom, For your information on Buddhism... from http://www.fundamental-buddhism.com/buddha.htm Essence Buddha's Teachings a short explicit explanation of Buddha's discourses based on the Pali Canon recognized by Buddhist scholars as the oldest record of what the Buddha actually taught Absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned, itself alone is, all else has always been, is, and always will be just a state of make-believe fiction, a state of delusion worn like a costume with multiple fabricated viewpoints, with each self-sustaining itself in a self-perpetuated state of self-ignorance, until each decides to come to closure through self-enlightenment and self-awakening

Interesting reading Burl. Name it DPD or whatever but I don't share the unbearable part as in the first case. ON the contrary to me it is more a freeing feeling that i would describe as peace and joy and perhaps a feeling of home. Ps Also can't relate it to drugs as i don't do any except coffee. ?

No one. The ego is the illusion that you are someone and separate and it will drop when one realizes it never existed in the first place except as a concept. It is a natural step in the evolution process of consciousness on the phenomenon we refer to as Man. Essentially in reality there is no self. Joseph

What latest policy that pasess as a debacle for you are you referring to?

hmm. Could be .... but perhaps the average person practicing meditation or Yoga that was selected is practicing for other reasons other than what Buddhism represents.