tariki

Religious convictions seem just another form of our tendency to reach after certainties in a very uncertain world. Alas (!) our world is one of becoming and not of being. Seeking certainities, and then claiming we have them, is like claiming we have captured the wind - which of course as the Good Book (!) says, "blows where it will." When our own certainties hit the brick wall of anothers, then we have fireworks - especially when our eternal destiny is thought to be at stake. Yikes! if they are right then I am wrong and all hell can break loose - which often results in our certainties becoming harder, cement, to be defended at all costs. Reaching after certainties is a mugs game. (maybe Romansh would say...."are you certain of that? ") Anyway, a rather short post as I have shorn it of various quotes to support my esteemed thesis - from the letters of Keats and various other Good Books that litter our world. Thank you for bearing with me.

I wasn't proving a point, I was making a point. 😐

I posted:- I'm sorry you see my point of view/faith as "esoteric" and "irrational". because David said previously to me.... At this point, given your tendency to embrace (what I regard as being) wildly irrational/esoteric statements, I doubt we will find common ground to meet on. I would say that it is the widsom of Jesus that is esoteric.......at least, I've never heard of it! 😊

Sorry David, but I DID explain fully and comprehensively the context in which I agreed with the claim of C S Lewis that Jesus "came to die". As a precis, I sought to say that therefore, as a consequence, it was for the purpose that ALL should have life, and have it more abundantly. This simply by reason of His death, and not because of any human beings intellectual grasp of His sayings. Thus, many paths. Apparently you are seeking to insist that only via analysis and understanding of various "sayings" of Jesus can a human being find more abundant life, and not, as I would claim, via universal mythos, via infinite ways, means and paths in a Reality that is itself a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. I'm sorry you see my point of view/faith as "esoteric" and "irrational". Thank you.

There is a deep insight/understanding/revelation in the fact that we cannot know. Why there is an eternal conflict in reason, why there is absolutely no end to the dialectics of reason. Why one must therefore"rise" to another standpoint, one that supercedes all standpoints and views. And simply saying "oh, is that your view/standpoint" simply does not cut it. Faith. A dirty word. Misunderstood. Associated with "belief without evidence" and therefore not actually experienced as a complete letting go of all beliefs, views and "positions". Oh yes, but as Neddy Seagoon once said so eloquently, "everybody gotta be somewhere". Thus Dogen:- "Therefore, if there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place. When we make this very place our own, our practice becomes the actualization of reality (genjōkōan). When we make this path our own, our activity naturally becomes actualized reality (genjōkōan)." And from Saichi's Journals:- Not knowing why! Not knowing why! That is my support, not knowing why! That is the Namu-amida-butsu! "Love has no why" Meister Eckhart. The hidden ground of love (Merton) Thank you. I will not be back for a while. I get tired of being compelled to spin around in pointless circles. The revolving wheel of samsara.

To be honest mate, I have no idea what you are on about. I'll take a rest from this. All the best.

Oh, I get it now. YOU are putting me in a box "as understood".

I am running much the same thread on the Mental Health Forum and getting some fine results. Just to share, a cut and paste of a post I have made there:- I'm at the edge of my own understanding here, I am still - on and off, mainly "off"... - trying to understand/assimilate the thought of Dogen, the 13th century Japanese zen master. He wrote in an old style of Japanese (imagine reading Chaucer's olde English) and therefore evenst the Japanese find him difficult to interpret. Again, he wrote much in poetry.Yet his reputation grows in the West, among those seeking to relate human consciousness to the advances of theoretical physics - relativity, string theory, chaos theory, quantum leaps and all the rest of it. Mind boggling stuff. No "privileged time" either to form a backdrop - and obviously, at the moment, with our cosmological knowledge in flux, a mixture of both proven theories and speculation. The new paradigm sought, the grand "theory of everything" seemingly far distant.And so Telegram Sam flounders ar times, but as I say, Dogen and his thought hold my interest - using suitable commentaries.First, an idea associated with the "dropping of body and mind" which of course has nothing to do with having an empty head, or "not thinking" and all the rest of it. The idea of "ultimate meaninglessness". Over to a commentator:-To cast off the body-mind did not nullify historical and social existence so much as to put it into action so that it could be the self-creative and self-expressive embodiment of Buddha-nature. In being “cast off,” however, concrete human existence was fashioned in the mode of radical freedom—purposeless, goalless, objectless, and meaningless. Buddha-nature was not to be enfolded in, but was to unfold through, human activities and expressions. The meaning of existence was finally freed from and authenticated by its all-too-human conditions only if, and when, it lived co-eternally with ultimate meaninglessness.This seems, in a strange sense, to nullify "nihilsm", suggesting that "meaninglessness" is in actual fact a necessity if meaning and freedom at our human level is to be possible.And in Dogen ontology, epistemology, and soteriology were inseparably united. If we are indeed part of the world, then knowledge of the world, in the final analysis, means that part of the world knows itself and consciousness is woven wholly into Cosmos.Perhaps I have to add that one fine commentator (Hee-Jin Kim) suggests that such creative practice-expression is not a matter of some refined understanding, but of deep trust in the activity of Buddha-nature:- “(Dogens thought) cannot be fully understood apart from consideration of faith" , the trust in the liberative qualities of spaciality and temporality.Anyway, I plod on. I never meant to rabbit on so much. In many ways I'm a simple guy, and in the end I think it IS all very simply, that finally, as the Good Book (!) says:- "A little child shall lead them". "Love has no why" Meister Eckhart.

I did post more than what you actually quoted of me. i'm certainly not seeking to put you in a box marked as "understood".

Well, you appear to see what Reality there is as simply matter/energy (or whatever the latest word is) in motion. Basically random yet "obeying" some kind of law, or combination of laws. Our own existent some sort of chance result. "Enjoy" it while it lasts. All the best

I think it is maybe best to begin by asking if our world, our Reality, the cosmos, has significance. It sometimes seems to me that to begin by asking "Is there a God" comes with far too much baggage, bringing in presumptions born of beliefs, creeds and doctrines of whatever culture we are have been born into. Instead of the simple question itself sometimes we are more likely to perhaps start rabbiting on about the behaviour of "religious types" and thanking our lucky stars that we have nothing to do with it!But significance. Speaking only for myself, that there is undoubtedly something rather than nothing suggests that Reality has some sort of meaning/significance. That is simply the thought/conclusion that overwhelms me. Me, myself! I don't offer it as any sort of logical argument.Reality having meaning/significance, that I can conclude this, reflect upon such thoughts, then suggests that as a human being we have some part to play within such.That is it. The starting point. To add, from my own knowledge of the various Faith spoken Traditions - and certainly from the actual experience spoken of by those who immerse themselves in any one of them - the actual distinction between theism and non-theism becomes very problematic. For instance, reading one or two of the great Christian mystics I wonder exactly where there is a true "dividing line". In the "negative way" (Apophatic Theology) God is the great "incomprehensible"....beyond thought. One such mystic, Meister Eckhart, in his Sermon on "True Poverty", speaks this way of God:- Nothing that knowledge can grasp, or desire can want, is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness; and there God shines. Obviously, those who equate "knowledge" of a "God" with a particular set of doctrines, creeds and beliefs, even "salvation" itself - desiring eternal safety! - would have difficulty in comprehending Eckhart's words at any level. Yet as said, at the level of experience, of personal transformation, often Buddhist (non-theist) can meet Christian (theist) and find much common ground, even true communion. Any thoughts?

More, from the poet John Keats.... Keats finds truth and beauty as two aspects, which are inseparable. Beauty for him is the source of knowledge, which is beyond the reach of consecutive reasoning. This is negative capability, but has much that relates to the Madhyamaka.

Here, from the Wiki page on Apophatic theology. (Please note that all "ways" have their pitfalls, which is why I often get lost, or even prefer to get lost......as per St John of the Cross:- "If you wish to be sure of the road you tread on then you must close your eyes and walk in the dark." ) Buddhist philosophy has also strongly advocated the way of negation, beginning with the Buddha's own theory of anatta (not-atman, not-self) which denies any truly existent and unchanging essence of a person. Madhyamaka is a Buddhist philosophical school founded by Nagarjuna (2nd-3rd century AD), which is based on a fourfold negation of all assertions and concepts and promotes the theory of emptiness (shunyata). Apophatic assertions are also an important feature of Mahayana sutras, especially the prajñaparamita genre. These currents of negative theology are visible in all forms of Buddhism.

Sadly, looking back here, many seem totally unaware of the via negativa, the way of negation. A time honoured tradition/way/path in most mystical traditions, and certainly the platform on which many of the various Buddhist paths are built. I'll leave it there.

Not entirely cut and paste here, but basically a transfer from my blog with added bits as takes my fancy as I sit with my coffee in McDonalds. The blog is enhanced by illustrations, but simple text here will have to do. Hopefully the text is not too irrational or esoteric! Recently my dear wife and I swept through the entire series of "Rumpole of the Bailey" and enjoyed it immensely. Rumpole was constantly quoting Wordsworth, who he obviously loved as a poet. I am not really over familiar with his works, but a few of his quotes moved me to look up his works. Anyway, here is the cut and paste of my blog (it has come out a bit ragged but hopefully that will not spoil your "enjoyment"...):- Tragically I have until now thought Wordsworth and his poetry very much on the boring side. Obviously my heart has often danced with the daffodils but beyond that very little has stirred me. Until recently that is. Almost by chance ( actually, watching Rumpole of the Bailey) I happened upon Wordsworth's Ode based upon a visit to the countryside around Tintern Abbey. Much to my surprise I read the poem right through and was almost moved to tears. One short passage particularly caught my eye - or ears - or heart. Knowing that Nature never did betray The heart that loved her; 'tis her privilege, Through all the years of this our life, to lead From joy to joy: for she can so inform The mind that is within us, so impress With quietness and beauty, and so feed With lofty thoughts, that neither evil tongues, Rash judgments, nor the sneers of selfish men, Nor greetings where no kindness is, nor all The dreary intercourse of daily life, Shall e'er prevail against us, or disturb Our cheerful faith, that all which we behold Is full of blessings. Certainly the world has been "too much with me" lately. The heart of a bodhisattva is far from me - hell not quite other people, but often close. But moving on from that passage and those thoughts, another few lines from the poem mentioned the "burthen of the mystery" being lightened, this in contemplation of natures beauties. Really, I have not delved that deep into Wordsworth's thoughts and mood as expressed in his Ode to actually claim disagreement. It is simply that I feel no burden (or "burthen") from any "mystery". It is mystery, in the sense of having reached no conclusions, of actually having claimed no answers, that actually seems to offer to me, as gift, a way of approaching and accepting Reality as it unfolds. In a strange way, if there was no "mystery" my heart would be dictated to; by formulas, creeds or custom. The Pure Land myokonin Saichi has exclaimed in his Journal:- "Not knowing why! Not knowing why! That is my support! Not knowing why! That is the Namu-Amida-Butsu". Such joins with a simple faith, a trust that "all shall be well" no matter what unfolds in any immediate future. Anyway, getting back to Wordsworth and his own words from his poem. He speaks of the "still sad music of humanity" but then of:- A presence that disturbs me with the joy Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime Of something far more deeply interfused, Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns, And the round ocean and the living air, And the blue sky, and in the mind of man: A motion and a spirit, that impels All thinking things, all objects of all thought, And rolls through all things. Good stuff! Maybe best not to crawl and trawl through each and every word looking for seeds of disagreement - better to feel and open to the presence of another human heart contemplating the "burthen of the mystery". To join with them. And sadly, this as a retreat from the mass of people I often feel around me, the barren crowd, the awful pointlessness of so many pursuits, the apparent direction of so many towards aimlessness. What is the link between "mystery" and "aimlessness". Is there any at all? Something to give thought to. Shades of Dogen with that last question, where he alludes to the need of deepening the intimacy of the present moment with a fundamental "meaninglessness", this lest we seek to advance towards the 10,000 things rather than allow them to advance to us. (Ha! How's that for esoteric!........)

Just another word or two David. As "Telegram Sam" ( "Born to Boogie" ) on another forum I will be found often far less "esoteric". Possibly I am a bit of a chameleon. Again, you are invited to engage on the threads here in the "Other Wisdom Traditions". Speaking for myself, you could say what you like there (in spite of the fact that I might still be the moderator of that section.......😁) All the best

I am. Really. That you choose to call irrational/esoteric statements are simply common parlance among many modern people (even Christians) genuinely interested in finding meaning in this sometimes sad, mad world where all the old signposts have gone. I think I explained clearly that Jesus "coming to die" related simply to the worldwide common theme of dying to self, thus in Christian speak:- Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Thank you.

No, not that one. (This is a family forum!) 😄

Here are two I like..........well, I can't tell the one about the Foreign Legion camel..........😇 A small congregation of Catholics in a village in Ireland were told that their priest must take six months absence owing to health reasons. On leaving he told his flock that should they need any counselling during his absence that they should approach the Protestant vicar.Meeting in the local pub they elected one of them to go to the vicar, to ask a question or two. This man knocked on the vicar's door and the vicar answered and asked what the problem was." Well, we have been asked to approach you with any problems but we have no idea exactly how to address you""Oh, then how do you address your priest?" the vicar said." We call him 'Father' " the man answered."Then call me 'Father' " replied the vicar.The man returned to pub and exclaimed to the others: " You won't believe it! He wants us to call him 'Father', him with a wife and six kids! " And the other:- A guy loves betting and likes the races, particularly watching the horses being paraded around the ring prior to their race. One day he is watching this parade and notices a Catholic priest stretch out in front of one of the horses and gesticulate with his hands. He thinks little of it but sees that the horse actually wins the race. During the next parade the priest does much the same and once again the horse wins! Thinking he is onto a winner he goes back to the parade ring and keeps watch. Sure enough, the priest leans out and once more gesticulates. The man runs off to the track bookie and puts £100 on the horse.It falls at the first fence and sadly has to be shot.The man runs back to the parade ring and starts shouting at the priest. "What on earth are you playing at? You picked out a couple of winners then mine falls at the first and has to be shot!"" Ah" says the priest, "I can tell you are not a Catholic. If you were you would know the difference between a Blessing and the Last Ritespanpan widget

Two links, to "The Harlequinade", and to "A Mahayana Christology" for anyone interested. http://weiwuwei.mysite.com/aai.html http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/keenan.htm

Ah ha! From tariki in therapy, to tariki the joker (though his humour be "sick"), and over on another forum its Telegram Sam who was "born to boogie". Do I lay down on a counch, enter BGT as a stand up comedian, or bop my way down the high street after leaving McDonalds? The "soul". From reading a few posts here (and I must thank David for stirring up this rather dormant forum) my mind turned in its rather strange way to a comment made by C S Lewis who insisted that Jesus should not be seen as a "good man" or whatever. No, "Jesus came to die"! In my own way I agree with him. Beyond all the "teachings" and "sayings" is the eternal mythos of death and renewal (as per Joseph Campbell, who speaks of all these common themes and parallels across the whole cultural spectrum of humanity) Before Jesus, there were more that 15 crucified saviours. Of course, "Jesus was the real one in time/space history", the others merely the work of the devil, who seeks to corrupt and decieve.........etc etc etc etc ad nauseam. Yet there are many books now making a strong case that Jesus never existed at all - but let us not go there. Back to the "eternal theme" of death and renewal, found right across the spectrum of humanity. This is really the theme of Wei Wu Wei's Harlequinade, from which came the "divest yourself of your garments" saying found in the Gospel of Thomas. (The whole "Halequinade" is readily found on the internet) It may seem a jump, but associated with this is the way some modern Christian theologians seek to speak of new Christologies, making the point that the "eternal mythos" in its Hebrew home then evolved within the context of Greek philosophy/thought. That Christianity is basically a product of such. They seek to speculate just how the mythos (or the event itself of the death and resurrection of Jesus) might have flowered in a Mahayana context of thought. A bit of googling will reveal "A Mahayana Christology" if anyone is interested. Myself, I stagger on. Though chastised for making jokes I am basically unrepentant. I think of Merton writing in his Journal as he read a passage from Irenaeus (A passage that I have said before here somewhere can relate to my understanding and experience of the Pure Land notion of "being made to become so (of itself) without/beyond the calculation of the devotee, where "no working is true working" - Japanese hakarai)Merton read:- If you are the work of God wait patiently for the hand of your artist who makes all things at an opportune time........Give to Him a pure and supple heart and watch over the form which the artist shapes in you........lest, in hardness, you lose the traces of his fingers......Merton comments......The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation...... I am serious about this. I do not joke about it. (In fact being serious about it allows me to joke about much that others consider serious, which I see as trivialities) I do keep a close watch on my mind/heart for any evidence of hardness, and often find, but always give thanks for the pure gift of "softness" that I know I can never "earn" from my own poor efforts. Like the common mythos of death and renewal, the "encounter with Christ" (the Universal Christ, the Dharma, the Tao etc etc etc) is found across the whole spectrum of humanity, and is not the possession of anyone or any creed. My worldview, my faith, sees reality itself as a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. Or as another has said......"the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality. " Others may mock such a faith. For me it is the Reality in which I live and move and have my being.

Well thank you David! You grow on me! ( I need sympathy today, having just had our "old folks" Christmas Dinner and afterwards a Christmas sing song by a guy who looked remarkably like David Brent [Ricky Gervais] ) PS You may not know the character, he was in the sitcom "The Office", a UK show.

As far as I was concerned I was saying on the other thread that basically I agreed with it. Given my own reading and understanding of Dogen, he would have recognised the import. That all, in their own way, "contribute", "assist" in Reality. With which I concur. (Given my own Universalism, I would add that breaking free of the total identification with a linear time frame can add the dimension of a theodicy to this whole canvas of reality - but please don't ask me to elucidate that any further at the moment; it is my faith currently seeking understanding)

Ha ha! Well obviously from my own point of view it was a case of mistaken identity!

Hi again David, just to say I am a veteran of over twenty or so Discussion Forums spanning about 25 years. I have morphed from being afraid to say boo to a goose to virtually saying whatever I like. My apologies if it has come across as rude, but I do have a pretty weird sense of humour at times. Myself, I give you a hearing but simply do not want to engage. That is the end of it. Getting back to forums, just recently on another I was told that they did not want to hear any "inter-religious ######", and I was basically hounded off the forum (this a Buddhist Forum) Again, I have even been called the "antichrist" on a Christian forum, as well as a hypocrite and a liar on others. That is the way of it and I apologise again if, in becoming hardened to such robust exchanges I have offended you in any way. I try to keep my mind/heart soft and pliable, open to the workings of grace, but sometimes I fail. All the best