tariki

Although I am a non-theistic Buddhist, I have become quite an expert on Christian Universalism (technical word apokatastasis) this being the teaching that eventually all will be saved and all things will be reconciled "in Christ". Beware of experts? Yes, well, as I say, I'm a bit of an expert.....😀 My expertise (!) has developed in part from my interest in Interfaith dialogue, an interest now on the wane as most Christians I tend to engage with on various forums have just one starting point i.e. There can be no dialogue between truth (theirs) and error (i.e. anything else) So debate and discussion tends to stall at the first hurdle. But then, as my mentor Thomas Merton has said at some point:- I have tried to learn in my writing a monastic lesson I could probably have not learned otherwise: to let go of my idea of myself, to take myself with more than one grain of salt................In religious terms, this is simply a matter of accepting life, and everything in life as a gift, and clinging to none of it, as far as you are able. You give some of it to others, if you can. Yet one should be able to share things with others without bothering too much about how they like it, either, or how they accept it. Assume they will accept it, if they need it. And if they don't need it, why should they accept it? That is their business. Let me accept what is mine and give them all their share, and go my way. Anyway, I'm rambling and waffling as usual. I'm not really seeking to advance the Universalist cause, more at the moment to say what I find problematic about it. This derives from the old comedy show of the late great Spike Milligan, Q6. Many of his sketches ended with some sort of punch line and then dear old Spike would stand ramrod stiff in the middle of the room and start muttering "What do we do now, what do we do now?" So Universalism. All are saved, all things are reconciled. But what do we do then? It's a very good question, and our questions can hold greater gold than many an "answer". In my own rather stumbling Pure Land Buddhist way of "no-calculation" the "journey itself is home", as the Japanese poet Basho has said. There is no final destination. The road goes on forever. And one of my mentors in zen, Dogen, speaks of the present moment being the only moment, "yet there is a movement toward Buddha", an ever opening intimacy with Reality. Another aspect is the guy (I can't remember who) who said that he would rather constantly pursue Truth rather than actually find it or have it "revealed" to him. What do you do with it when you have found it? Could any final "truth" even be of words? Well, that is it for now. But I will speak of Christian Universalism when I find the odd moment ( "odd" being, perhaps, the operative word....

Thanks

Hi Rom, there is some good stuff in Joseph Campbell. Evil is more often seen as not having the same "existence" as the Good. The Good is seen to be God (by Christian theologians), who then gives "existence" to the opposites. Isaiah 45:7 has:- I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Which is the ancient Hebrew response to Zoroastrianism, which spoke of two eternal forces of good and evil. One of the early Church Fathers, Origen (a Universalist) spoke like this:- I do not think that the reign of death is eternal as that of Life and Justice is, especially as I hear from the Apostle that the last enemy, death, must be destroyed [1 Cor 15:24]. For should one suppose that death is eternal as Life is, death will no longer be the contradictory of Life, but equal to it. For “eternal” is not the contradictory of “eternal,” but the same thing. Now, it is certain that death is the contradictory of Life; therefore, it is certain that, if Life is eternal, death cannot possibly be eternal. . . . Once the death of the soul, which is “the last enemy,” has been destroyed, the kingdom of death, together with death itself, will finally be wiped away. (Origen of Alexandria, Commentary on Romans 5:7) Life, the Good, the true, beauty...... The problem is that Christian Fundamentalists/Literalists in effect side with Zoroaster - insisting on an eternal and perpetual division between good and evil, lost and saved, "sheep" and "goats"! Again, the Catholic Church, in refusing to speak or acknowledge a "Godhead" beyond God, in effect are in danger of creating the self-same eternal division. Meister Eckhart:- "I pray to God to rid me of God" Anyway, perhaps I have waffled enough, and my coffee is getting cold. Hope all is well with you. I've just lost my best mate, a true friend, always there when I needed him, always going - as they say - the extra half mile. And just occasionally I was there for him, especially when pigeons or doves got stuck down his chimney - it was always a two man job to release them back to safety! We both enjoyed watching them fly off, disappearing, becoming a dot in the distance. A friend since schooldays, best man at my wedding - I still have the glass he nicked from the pub from which I had my last drink as a free man. As I say, my best mate, a true friend. All the best, hope all is well with you.

Poems are not ephemeral things. At best they travel heart to heart. Maybe they can also bring forth true communion, the deepest form of communication. The finger that points at the moon becomes the moon itself. Reading the various details of Dogen's life in 13th century Japan (a time of great turmoil and social change), of his travels to China, can illuminate his poems, tie them to moments of doubt, to moments of his own illuminations, in time and space. From Dogen's collection of poetry:- Attaining the heart Of the sutra, The sounds of the Bustling marketplace Preach the Dharma In my own Pure Land path of "no-calculation" the "marketplace" is the dojo (training ground), and everyone you meet is a "master". If not so, we can end up merely meeting ourselves, time and time again. Moving back "west'...... James Joyce writes in "Ulysses":- "God is a shout in the street" From one or two commentaries on the works of James Joyce:- Bloom (Leopold Bloom of Ulysses) is no perfect hero, but perfection is overrated. Give me a honest human being embracing their mundane humanity any day over a person striving after perfection". Joyce does not present us with the illusion of a perfect life in this book, a life without pain and sorrow, but in all his honesty Joyce shows us that life as it is and not as we think it should be is worth saying Yes to. The sorrows and difficulties faced in Ulysses are included in Joyce’s affirmation of life, because what good would such an affirmation be if it did not include all of life? Joyce offers a new litmus test for what we call the hero, not gigantic feats of strength, but small and simple feats of kindness. And finally:- An epiphany was not a miraculous dispensation from above but, as Joyce defined it, an insight into 'the soul of the commonest object' (Kevin Birmingham, from "The Most Dangerous Book: The Battle For James Joyce's Ulysses.") Simple feats and acts of kindness. So easy to miss, to become deaf and blind to.

The Blue Cliff Record is a collection of 100 zen koans. Pretty esoteric stuff for the unwary, like myself.... As well as the actual book, I also have a commentary on it, written by a couple of zen masters of yesteryear, this called "Secrets of the Blue Cliff Record". Each koan is called a case, and I have after quite a few years reached case 70 or so. I have to admit that most of the secrets the Blue Cliff Record holds remain secrets, at least to me. Which can be fairly disappointing, but then again, as Dogen says, "Where we do not understand, there is our understanding. Which takes a bit of understanding", but I think I'm getting there. So many seem to understand, presuming that they have it sussed. Not just zen koans, but anything else you care to mention. The meaning of life, the one true way, is there a God. You name it, they have the requisite understanding. But there is a rich potential in not knowing, in not understanding. I think that when we have it all sussed then we basically imprint our little selves and its concepts and its answers onto each and everything we see, read or touch. We can end up living in an echo chamber, hearing and seeing ourselves coming back at us - all of course commended by whatever God we believe in, who nods and says "Well done, your reward is waiting in the next life, my good and faithful servant." Well, maybe it is, but I seriously doubt it. Anyway, I waffle. Here is a tiny excerpt from one of the Blue Cliff Record's many cases:- One letter, seven letters, three or five letters, Investigating ten thousand things that are devoid of substance. In the depth of night, the bright moon sets on the dark sea— Seeking a single dragon’s jewel, I find one gem after another. Good stuff, hey? I'll leave that one with you. If you cannot afford the very high prices that such books cost then I would recommend a little tome which brings the Blue Cliff Record into the 21st Century (where it was before I wouldn't like to say) with a very upbeat commentary. It is by an Irish guy, Terrance Keenan, and includes some very good abstract art that illuminates the text. One "case" in Mr Keenan's book touches upon the ramblings found above. "Emperor Wu asks Bodhidharma". Emperor Wu asked Bodhidharma, “What is the first principle of the holy teaching?” Bodhidharma said, “Vast emptiness. Nothing holy therein.” Then he asked, “Who is this before me?” And Bodhidharma replied, “No knowing.” The emperor did not grasp his meaning. Thereupon Bodhidharma crossed the river to another kingdom. Again, make of that what you will. I'm sure that some text driven worthies, knowing nothing of the Living Word would soon be able to turn it into a New Religion and therefore, very soon, the Inquistion would follow, with the "true" followers and the heretics. Bodhidharma was the first Buddhist missionary to China. He went to see the emperor, who boasted to him of all his good deeds. "What merit have I earned" he asked Bodhidharma. "None at all" was the answer. I'm sure many Christians here would concur, with their "faith/grace, not works" mantras. Anyway, whatever, the sad thing about this story is that after Bodhidharma had moved on (possibly to stare at a wall for nine years as was his wont) the Emperor became desperate to call him back, to have a few more words. But alas, no. There was no second chance. Is there any moral to this story? Well, I've always loved the line from the late great Robbie Robertson song "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down":- Just take what you need and leave the rest What do you take from the story? Always remembering the very next line:- But they should never have taken the very best How do we ever really know what to take? That it is the best? Just thinking about all that I have written here, it is a good question. And really has no answer. I think Faith and belief are two totally different things. I think that this is the lesson here, at least for me. Faith lets go, while belief clings. I think we can feel "justified" by believing things. But that is not Grace. Well, it's New Years Eve and I'm in MacDonald's with a coffee and a chocolate milkshake. Really busy. Just to finish, another few words from Terrance Keenan's little book (very cheap on Kindle) Joshu spoke to the assembly, saying, “The real Way is not difficult. Just avoid choices and becoming attached. A single word can induce choice or attachment. A single word can bring clarity. I do not have that clarity.” A monk asked, “If you do not have that clarity, what do you appreciate?” Joshu replied, “I do not know that either.” “If you don’t know, how can you say you don’t have that clarity?” Joshu replied, “Asking the question was good enough. Now go.” Saigyo’s comment:- In the old city at the head of Grafton Street a busker plays his fiddle. First Brahms, then Bach and a little Paganini for fun. Fingers run up and down strings. Is it the vibrating air, his skill, or the old melodies that bring tears to my eyes? Tell me, I need to know. Do we need to know, or do we simply need to listen? Meister Eckhart:- Love has no why

Often the Buddha is recorded as saying that he taught "this and this alone, suffering and the end of suffering." He was silent on virtually all the metaphysical questions - the so called "silence of the Buddha". We all want answers, but you don't really get them in the Dharma. We have to find our own answers - even sometimes our very own questions. As I see it, most will simply answer the questions set by their own conditioning and indoctrination, and "believe" some answers - and make their peace. Is this the peace that passes understanding that the Bible speaks of? Way back I asked on Buddhist Forums:- "In what sense does suffering end"? I posted a small excerpt from a lapsed Buddhist (I think of the Tibetan variety) and he had spoken of the death of his mother, of how her death had left him with grief and a huge hole in his life. He said that he didn't want that hole filled with some "pseudo evolved transcendence of personal pain". He didn't even want the hole filled at all. At the time my own mum was sliding down into dementia and his words caught my heart. Well, from what I remember there were lots of answers. 100 Buddhists, 100 answers. Which has some sort of message - but I'm not sure what.....😀 Well, that was long ago and I have walked the path for quite some time. More a stumble than a strut - I'm fairly vulnerable. But as I see it, or have come to see it, most "answers" simply postpone the whole question to some other life, betraying this world for some perceived "other" beyond the grave, where rewards and compensations are handed out to the "elect" while the suffering is actually said to continue perpetually for many - if not for most. How does suffering end? There is a zen koan:- A clearly enlightened person falls into the well. How is this so? Thomas Merton once wrote:- We stumble and fall constantly, even when we are most enlightened. As for Dogen, he once said that the life of a zen master is "one mistake after another"....😄 In the end we always come back to where we started, yet always know it for the first time. moment by moment. If it is not the first time then we are caught in the past, in suffering. So what is the point? We must find our own point. A zen guy Pai-chang wrote:- The graduations of the language of the teachings—haughty, relaxed, rising, descending—are not the same. What are called desire and aversion when one is not yet enlightened or liberated are called enlightened wisdom after enlightenment. That is why it is said, “One is not different from who one used to be; only one’s course of action is different from before.” Only one's course of action is different from before. I think compassion for others can grow. In this the difference between samsara and nirvana can evaporate. It is the answer of the Buddha when he was asked why he continued to practice and meditate even though enlightened. He answered:- Out of compassion for the world "Love has no why" Meister Eckhart. No answers. No why.

Thanks Paul. Myself, a summary is simply something I cannot manage. All to do with the fact (to me) that final conclusions are not conducive to the living of what the Buddha called the "holy life." Possibly some would say Faith/Trust is a "final conclusion", the faith that all shall be well. I simply do not see it like that in the world of becoming. As I may have said elsewhere, at the moment I am well into Dogen (amid wife, daughters and grandchildren and drinking coffee in MacDonald's) In the swift march of ephemerality birth and death are vital concerns........Just by understanding that birth-death is itself nirvaṇa, one neither despises birth-death as a form of bondage nor pursues nirvaṇa as a goal. Only then will you be able to gain freedom from birth-death within the realm of birth-death. (Dogen, from "Tanahashi", Treasury of the True Dharma Eye) Happy New Year!

I have read about five translations of Dogen's "Genjokoan" (the actualisation of reality) They vary greatly. I have tracked down another translation of the excerpt from "Uji" (Being/Time) given in my first post. Here it is:- You reckon time only as something that does nothing but pass by. You do not understand it as something not yet arrived. Although our various understandings are time, there is no chance for them to be drawn in by time. There has never yet been anyone who supposed time to be coming and going who has penetrated to see it as being-time dwelling in its dharma-position. What chance is there, then, for a time to arrive when you will break through the barrier into total emancipation? Even if someone did know that dwelling-position, who would be able truly to give an utterance that preserved what he had thus gained? And even were someone able to utter such an utterance at will, he could still not avoid groping to make his original face immediately present. What are the implications of this? Do the two translations come to the very same thing? if so, what is this "thing"? Or are they two separate "things"? "We are what we understand" The Word as Text and the Living Word.

Having waffled in The Cafe, here is an excerpt from "Uji".... Do not think that time simply flies away. Do not understand “flying” as the only function of time. If time simply flew away, a separation would exist between you and time. So if you understand time as only passing, then you do not understand the time being. To grasp this truly, every being that exists in the entire world is linked together as moments in time, and at the same time they exist as individual moments of time. Because all moments are the time being, they are your time being. Dōgen Zenji, Uji I think of D.T.Suzuki who speaks of an eschatology of "the present moment". In the West, time is often understood in a completely linear way. Often we can simply end up living for tomorrow, a life then of anticipations and epitaphs. Never of the present - which is all moments.

The Christmas festivities over I find myself back in MacDonald's with a large white coffee. A little taste of paradise believe it or not. I am turning to Dogen and his writings, but as is said we can set the sails but must always wait for heaven's will. Dogen's actual writings are very dense, sometimes impenetrable, at least to me. And judging by the way different commentators see different things, well......what can you say? What Dogen himself said was "where you do not understand, there is your understanding." And given that he also said that "we are what we understand", you might begin to see the problem! Well, before I leap deeply into his Shōbōgenzō, "The Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" , I am reading a novel by Ruth Odeki called "A Tale For the Time Being". The title is a slight play on words of one of Dogen's essays/sermons, called "Uji" which means Being/Time. Time is being and being is time. Which when you throw in the idea that time is only the "visible" part of eternity, then you have much to ponder - if you like that sort of thing. Some don't. They are what they understand. They are satisfied with that, and perhaps like to call it "all truth"....... but no matter. The book by Ruth Odeki is very good. You realise as you read that the deep subtleties of Dogen's view of time is being presented, yet in story form, simply. Part of the story - it has many sides - is of a young Japanese student who gets called up by the army in WW2. And is trained to become a kamikaze pilot. The first thing he is taught though is how to use his rifle to kill himself. He laughs when he gets his call up papers, simply at the thought of himself as a warrior. He is the peaceful sort. Finally his mother receives his remains in a box sent by the Government, this after his kamikaze death dive. The box is of course empty (except for a few banal words from the Government) The emptiness of the box is pregnant with meaning, certainly if you are a Dharma follower. The emptiness holds all that the young man was in and through time. In a very deep way, he still lives. His love, his hopes, his dreams. His mother, after receiving the box, becomes a Buddhist nun. As an 103 year old she guides another young person, a girl, in ways that again explicate some of Dogen's teachings. The portions of the book written by this young girl are often the highlight. Very funny at times. Very candid. There is no soft sell. Well, my coffee is getting cold.

Hi Rom, you always were the argumentative one! 😀

Thanks Paul Yes, it is always and ever US. Never "others" or "them" Or as one wag once said:- There are two types of people in the world - those that divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't. Happy Christmas!

Just to say, I invited a Christian (Protestant Reform Fundamentalist) to comment on the above post - which I posted on another Forum - and his response was:- "Why would I as a Christian be inspired by the theology of a Buddhist Monk? That Catholic monk ought to be kicked out of his monastery." 😀

I feel a waffle coming on, so be warned. Those with the attention span of goldfish can safely move on to greener pastures......or is it wetter waters? Anyway, the meeting of religions. As I see it, the Religions meet when people of different Faiths meet. What can unite them then is not doctrine, nor belief as such, but that which I often call the Living Word, the spirit that blows where it will. One such meeting was between the Catholic Trappist monk Thomas Merton and the "zen man" (Buddhist) D.T.Suzuki. Here is Merton's testimony:- I saw Dr. Suzuki only in two brief visits and I did not feel I ought to waste time exploring abstract, doctrinal explanations of his tradition. But I did feel that I was speaking to someone who, in a tradition completely different from my own, had matured, had become complete and found his way. One cannot understand Buddhism until one meets it in this existential manner, in a person in whom it is alive. Then there is no longer a problem of understanding doctrines which cannot help being a bit exotic for a Westerner, but only a question of appreciating a value which is self-evident. Yes, self-evident, if we look for the fruits of the spirit and not simply look for a mirror image of ourselves or only recognise the words of our own belief system. As Merton said elsewhere, "The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them." Sadly, some have not even touched the beginning of Love. Thomas Merton and Suzuki only met on two occasions. Once was in New York when Merton had managed to escape from his monastery and was able to enjoy a bit of NY Jazz. When they parted Merton read to Suzuki the words of a South American theologian:- Praise be to God that I am not good! Suzuki, apparently deeply touched, said:- "That is so important" When some look at two religions they hear only themselves, their own creeds, beliefs, and thus decry those of another. Here, in the meeting of Merton and Suzuki we hear the spirit blowing. Suzuki, an "atheist", Merton a "theist" yet both able to dispense with labels and words. Suzuki could relate to the South American theologian's words from the heart of his own faith. Another example was when Merton quoted to Suzuki the words of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart:- “In giving us His love God has given us the Holy Spirit so that we can love Him with the love wherewith He loves Himself.” Merton adds:- The Son Who, in us, loves the Father, in the Spirit, is translated thus by Suzuki into Zen terms: “one mirror reflecting another with no shadow between them.” (Suzuki, Mysticism: East and West, p. 41) Elsewhere, Eckharts words (which Merton says are perfectly orthodox and traditionally Christian) are continued:- We love God with His own love; awareness of it deifies us. Suzuki hears with approval, comparing it with the Prajna wisdom of Zen. As I see it, if we truly begin to touch the heart of our Faith we do not withdraw into a tight circle, seeking to protect its various creeds, but we begin to reach out, as spoken of here by another Buddhist:- The dharma, can be discovered through the Buddhist tradition, but Buddhism is by no means the only source of dharma. I would define dharma as anything that awakens the enlightened mind and brings on the direct experience of selflessness. The teachings of Christ are prefumed with dharma. There is dharma in jazz, in beautiful gardens, in literature, in Sufi dance, in Quaker silence, in shaman healing, in projects to care for the homeless and clean up the inner cities, in Catholic ritual, in meaningful and competent work. There is dharma in anything that causes us to respect the innate softness and intelligence of ourselves and others. When the Buddhist system is applied properly, it does not turn us inward toward our own organizations, practices, and ideas. The system has succeeded when the Buddhist can recognize the true dharma at the core of all other religions and disciplines that are based on respect for the human image, and has no need to reject them. And so, as I see it, there are Words and there are Living Words. If we are truly children of grace we look not for others to echo our own words, but are open instead to the fruits of the spirit. In any meeting of people there will always be truth and error on both sides - that is our finitude. What unites is not Creed, what unites is Love - a love which Reality shares freely, in which we "live and move and have our being". It is truly desperately sad that some will simply say that there can be no meeting between truth (theirs) and error (anything contrary) They will trust in being "of the truth", awaiting the "reward" of their God in the next life. If their trust was truly in God, in Love, in Grace, then they would have no such attitude. That's it. I doubt many - if any - will have got this far. But I find expressing myself therapeutic.

Thanks Thijs, I'll take a look. And the rananda site.

As pure self advertisement, the last post turned into a Blog in glorious technicolor HERE :- http://mydookiepops.blogspot.com

Hello again Thijs. You seem to be a friendly chap, which invites discussion and dialogue, unlike some who have drifted into this rather quiet and sedate forum - which suits a fine upstanding English Gentleman like myself who never voted for Brexi!) Well, nothing is eternal except eternity itself. Things are always moving on. The problems seem to begin when we want them to stop, to hold onto the moment William Blake:- He who binds to himself a joy Does the winged life destroy; But he who kisses the joy as it flies Lives in eternity's sun rise. There is a fine dialogue between "east" and "west" (to use the terms loosely) in "Wisdom in Emptiness", the second section of Thomas Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite". It is between Merton himself, the Catholic Trappist monk, and the "zen man" D.T. Suzuki. They agree on many things (it is actually a dialogue concerning the "Fall" and of how we can regain Paradise) but part ways on the subject of eschatology. Suzuki speaks of the "eschatology of the present moment", the eternal NOW, while Merton speaks of some sort of "beyond", of some final consumation in God's Kingdom when all things are handed over to the Son. One never knows with Merton (the anti-monk) as to whether or not he is paying lip service to the Catholic censors. I've stopped trying to guess. Anyone who dallies with young nurses must become suspect.....😀 But whatever, in the past I have tended to side with Suzuki. But the 13th century zen master Dogen seems to offer some sort of reconciliation to the parting of the ways of Suzuki and Merton. Dogen agrees that the present moment is the "only" moment, yet there is movement toward Buddha. But as I see it, this must in a sense be a movement of no-calculation (Japanese "hakarai") Our definitions and conclusions, our beliefs, can forestall the movement, and hold us in the past. As is said in St Marks gospel, in one of the Parables of the Kingdom:- The earth brings forth fruits of herself We can set the sails but then we must wait for the wind to blow. Who is in control? The spirit blows where it will. I rest in Faith rather than belief. Faith "lets go" in pure trust, Grace. Belief clings. Faith unites. Beliefs divide us. We need to let go and trust the river of change, or as one joker once said:- "Stand upon the firm ground of emptiness". Or, again, as per the Christian mystic St John of the Cross:- If we wish to be sure of the road we walk on then we must close our eyes and walk in the dark Whatever, I still look to Dogen at the moment. He had his own questions, his own Life Koan. In concise form:- “If all sentient beings possess the buddha-nature and Tathagata exists without change - as enunciated in the Nirvana Sutra - then why must people develop the aspiration for awakening and vigorously engage in austerities in order to realize this truth?” Later on in life he wrote himself:- Fundamentally, the basis of the Way is thoroughly pervasive, so how could it be contingent on practice and realization? The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted, then why should we expend sustained effort? Surely whole being is far beyond defilement, so who could believe in a method to cultivate it? Never is the Way apart from this very place, so what is the use of a journey to practice it? Yet, if there is a hair’s breadth of distinction between existence and training, this gap becomes as great as that between heaven and earth. Once the slightest sense of liking or disliking something arises, confusion reigns and one’s mind is hopelessly lost in delusion If I were a Christian I would be a Universalist. Which would change a few words, of Dogen's Life Koan. i.e. If all are saved, what must we do to be saved? Well, I have waffled enough. I find myself in MacDonald's with a coffee and just start tapping on my Kindle. I find it therapeutic. And as others have observed, I'm fundamentally harmless.

Oh, and just to add, I am not a Christian. However, as I was once considered totally harmless (😀) by the then Administrator of this Forum, I was given permission to post wherever I liked. Maybe you would like to pop across to the "Other Wisdom Traditions" and take a peep at some poetry of Dogen? Whatever, enjoy the Forum.

Is this a form of the "languid east" syndrome? 😀 Yes, it is Dharma for the sake of Dharma. All else, including "works" are simply by-products. Which should be evident to any Christian who relies upon Grace for salvation. Thank you.

I don't really feel any special commission to do anything. In the Buddhist tradition it tends to be said that we should study Dharma for the sake of Dharma. The rest is left to the way of no-calculation. Maybe the greatest thing is genuine transformation. As you imply, this is not really our work. I think that when we seek explicitly to evangelise it can all take a nasty turn! Sadly, many DO put limits - if it is not in the name of Jesus it is not recognised, even denied. Anyway, welcome to the forum.

The context is for God to give. The spirit blows where it will. To simply presume, in a circular fashion (i.e. God reveals his true Word to the true believer, I am a true believer therefore he has revealed its true meaning to me) that one's own understanding is, in effect, infallible, is not a sign of either Faith or Grace, or of trust in God. It is more a sign of a trust in oneself. All the best.

Another poem by Dogen:- Another poem of Dogen:- In the heart of the night, Moonlight framing A small boat drifting, Tossed not by the waves Nor swayed by the breeze The meaning of this, at least for Dogen, can be illuminated by his words found in his "Genjokoan" (the actualisation of reality) He writes:- If one riding in a boat watches the coast, one mistakenly perceives the coast as moving. If one watches the boat in relation to the surface of the water, then one notices that the boat is moving. Similarly, when we perceive the body and mind in a confused way and grasp all things with a discriminating mind, we mistakenly think that the self-nature of the mind is permanent. When we intimately practice and return right here, it is clear that all things have no fixed self. Dogen, in his poem, gives voice to the vulnerability of enlightenment. We do not possess enlightenment. It possesses us. "A clearly enllghtened person falls into the well. How is this so?" (A zen koan) And Thomas Merton:- We stumble and fall constantly, even when we are most enlightened. As I see it, many fear vulnerability. We can cling to being right, of having "all truth" - but Faith is of another order. It is a letting go, trusting in becoming. Which is the "eastern" way of seeing things. Becoming, not Being. The eastern preoccupation with impermanence is well known to anyone who approaches its poetry, and impermanence can - and does - bring suffering when we cannot trust in the river of change. But impermanence, if we "let go", can transform the suffering. But Impermanence, it becomes clear, doesn’t mean that things last for a while then pass away: things arise and pass away at the same time. That is, things don’t exist as we imagine they do. Much of our experience of reality is illusory. And this is why we suffer. We attempt to hold onto happiness, as if it is a thing, a state of being, but as William Blake has written:- He who binds to himself a joy Does the winged life destroy He who kisses the joy as it flies Lives in eternity's sunrise Therefore Being IS becoming. "God" can become an idol. Faith for me is in letting go.

I see no reason for you to claim this. I do not wish to rewrite anything. I simply understand the words in a way different from your own. All the best

Hi, if I might enter this friendly discussion..... This is a Progressive Christianity website. It is NOT a Protestant Reform Tradition/Fundamentalist website. Please respect that. Sadly, your judgemental attitude says little in favour of your own views and opinions - which are just that....views and opinions. Thank you.

A cut and paste from my "missionary activity" 😀 on another Forum! In one or two posts I have referred to what I term "Jesusainity". This is not meant to have been disparaging in any essential way, although I must admit to being dismayed by those who insist upon "one way only" and who then cite the usual couple of verses from the New Testament that they consider closes the matter. If anyone is interested - and I guess that most are not, either being non-religious in any way, or being an ardent "one wayer" convinced of their infallibility - then I would simply seek to explain. There is Jesusainity and there is Christianity. Relevant here is a form of debate, argumentation, discussion, more prevalent in the East than the West i.e. argument by relegation. Here opposing positions are treated not by refuting them, but by accepting them as true, but only true as a part of the full picture. Logically, it broadens the scope of discussion. Even if I am persuaded that another’s view is incorrect in some respect, it is nevertheless a real point of view and my theory of reality must be able to account for its existence. In effect the discussion involves not refuting the position of another but will be competing over which position can relegate which. And so, which is relegated? Jesusainity or Christianity? Christianity simply says that the words (found in the most "spiritual" of the Gospels, St John) "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" are the words of the Eternal Logos - as spoken of in the prelude to St John's Gospel. Again, the "no other name" verse should be seen in the context of its historical proclamation, this in line with the Catholic Church's understanding of how we should approach and understand inspired scripture:- To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (Dei Verbum, III, 12, 2) (Again, in this instance, as is said, "what is in a name"? "Jesus" is simply an anglicised form of the original Hebrew name) Accepting all this, what do we have? Christianity expands beyond the theology of the Protestant Reform Tradition, which is time-conditioned, insular and in fact shut off from the whole world of our various Faith Traditions, enclosed within itself, the "only truth". Expands instead to embrace all movements of the Spirit (that "blows where it will") - which explains just why the fruits of the spirit..... The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. .....can be seen throughout history, in various individuals, of all Faiths, and sometimes of none. The Lord knows his own, as is said! Thomas Merton once said that we should never presume that Christ is in our own heart if we cannot also see Him and find Him in the hearts of others most remote from ourselves. I think this is true. I guess I am quite "remote" to some here being a non-theistic Buddhist of the Pure Land path. But we say:- My eyes being hindered by blind passions, I cannot perceive the light that grasps me; Yet the great compassion, without tiring, Illumines me always (Shinran, from "Hymns of the Pure Land Masters", verse 95) Which corresponds with the words of Julian of Norwich of the theistic Christian tradition:- If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love. I appreciate that there will be some who will continue to believe and insist that the God they worship turns His face away from those who - in their own time worn phrase - have not "accepted Jesus as their own personal Savior". Yet all I am saying here is that in Christianity, just how Christ is "accepted" can take infinite forms according to the almost infinite number of individual human beings. The spirit blows where it will. That is all. Make of it what you will.