sprout

Beautifully put! Amen to paradox! I think this has much to do with whether one perceives the situation from a dualistic or non-dualistic perspective. From the dualistic perspective we do choose and it does matter. From the non-dual perspective we don't choose and it does not matter. When the Jesus of John's gospel says, "I and the Father are one", he speaks from a non-dual perspective. In fact, it seems to me, most of the "I am" statements in John express non-dual consciousness. The latest issue (Sep-Nov 2005) of What Is Enlightenment magazine has a discussion about immortality between Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen that is quite relevent to this. I will quote a little of what Wilber says: "...there is a little stretch of hell in our development from subconsious to self-conscious to superconscious. The subconscious realm doesn't suffer because it is not self-conscious. There is no existential angst. But then there is a period where you're self-conscious enough to know that you're finite and you intuit infinity, but you haven't yet awakened to real infinity. And between that is all of the hell of humanity. ... It is absolute hell because you are on earth, you intuit heaven, and you are a mixture of both. I think the great archetypal figure of this is Christ. Because, for example, the sitting image of the Buddha is largely one who is simply awakened and "off the wheel [of samsara, the phenomenal world]". He is awakened to the inifinite unmanifest but hasn't integrated the manifest. But Christ is both human and divine, and he knows fully that he is both. And the passion on the cross is the passion of humanity between these two points. I think it's a beautiful image. It's a sad, horrifying image, but it's very true." I think this is pretty good Christian theology coming from a practicing Buddhist. I would equate subconscious with Eden, self-conscious with the fall/sin, and superconscious with salvation (death of self to be replaced by Christ living in us). This is a good discussion. I enjoy it. Thanks! John

I have to return to the question of what we mean by saved. What salvation meant to Abraham and Moses and David and Isaiah and Jesus were all significantly different things: progeny, freedom, vindication, deliverance from domination and injustice, forgiveness and love and the emergence of God's rule on earth. I would argue that our current dominant conception of salvation (going to heaven when we die) was not a significant concern for Jesus but something that developed in the early church after he was gone. "Once saved, always saved" is not true for most of these types of salvation. They are all things that can change or be lost. With most of them, being saved is something that happens over and over. Nonetheless, I do agree with the statement. There is a deeper level-- of experienced grace, of connection to God, of the peace that passes understanding, of kenosis and spiritual birth-- that is somehow irrevocable. I confess to being a bit of a universalist. My experience of salvation is that it always has been and always will be for everyone. What we experience as the moment of salvation is simply the moment in which we come to know that our salvation is eternal. What I mean by salvation is the loving reality of God in which we have our being. This can never change. There is no circumstance in which we can exist in anything other than God and God's love. We are indeed lost if we do not know this reality, but the reality is still there waiting for us to awaken to it. Even if we die without ever awakening to it, the reality is still there and will not abandon us. I do not know what awaits us beyond the grave, but I do know that love (God) will continue to work within it. So . . . in this sense I completely agree that "once saved, always saved" I will also say that I am not at all sure that this sort of salvation necessarily involves the preservation of my personal identity. It might. Or it might be more a matter of dissolving back into God. I don't know, and I don't know if anyone does know. I guess I don't much care. The love is plenty good enough for me. John

Hi, I am a TCPC member new to these message boards. I agree with most of the progressive view points expressed in this thread. I would like to add how I believe the topic of psycho-social-spiritual development bears on this issue. What it means to be saved will change as we progess on our faith journeys. At one time in my life, salvation had everything to do with saving my own butt by getting into heaven when I die. Today, that is not a concern at all. Today it is about how I relate to God and others right here right now. To know that I am emersed in God's love in this moment is total salvation. I don't worry about what comes after death because I know it has to be a continuation of that love. My main point, though, is that as I grew spiritually, my concept of salvation changed radically. Christianity-- and especially progressive Christainity-- needs to understand and work with this sort of spiritual development. There are many stage theories that bear on this. I suggest Further Along the Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck (pp.119-134) as a good introduction with a simple but excellent stage theory. I recommend The Marriage of Sense and Soul and A Brief History of Everything both by Ken Wilber for those who want some real meat. I have read five Ken Wilber books this summer, and he has blown me away. If you really want to understand the fundamentalist-progessive conflict and the current inter/intra-religious acrimony in America and the world, read Wilber! The point is not that one is more right and the other more wrong-- which is no doubt the case but not very helpful-- but that all of us must develop from self-centeredness to the God-centeredness in which we come to love all as we love ourselves. We ought to be concerned less about arguing with more traditional/conservative/fundamentalist types to convince them of a more progressive point of view and more with stimulating them to grow into that point of view for themselves. We don't grow much from arguing. The crucial activity, in my view, is spiritual practice that opens individuals to higher states of spiritial awareness.