Elen1107

I lean towards thinking that people saw his eternity, or saw/experienced the eternity in him, during his earthly life/ministry, not just after the reresection. There are plenty of verses about eternal life, and his being the messiah, in the body of and during the course of the gospels. First off, how much "like us" do you need him to be? He was human, but perhaps the best of and the most that any human could or can ever be. If I, as a person, were to try to enter in to a competition with him, I'd just give up before step one, and say you have it, you win. I don't however think this is so much of a competition or anything like that. Maybe a learning experience and something more, maybe something much, much more. But a competition, no. I'm just not doing that. The verses where Jesus is quoted as saying, (quotes are from memory here), "The kingdom of heaven is within you", "The kingdom of heaven comes in a way that cannot be seen", "The kingdom of heaven is scattered among you and people do not see it". These verses don't sound very apocalyptic and actual, physical "end of the worldy" to me. Don't see how people see him as being so completely apocalyptic in this way, when there are much subtler verses that express the coming of the kingdom. If JC was just a regular person, and he had set the changes in motion that he did, it doesn't take that big an all seeing outlook to figure that things would pan out somewhat the way that they did. That the kingdom inbreaks and fades and then inbreaks again, (over and over again), as the rest of us humans slowly make our way forward. I can see it that the earliest Christians, (at least some of them) and Paul were apocalyptical, but I don't think that JC was. Some words may have been put into his sayings to suit their views, or maybe they/we just misunderstood some of the things he said and how he meant them, but apocalyptic in the way we tend to uses the word, no.

You might be as much the exception as the rule in terms of looking out for your family if you pass first. So many people were told that everything would be ok, and then it turns out that it's not. Make sure you read the fine print, and know for real what is going to happen. If these things are "socialist", then one would have to call most of Europe and Canada "socialist". I don't see them like that at all. They all took the good thing that we had during the 50's and made it better. I'm thinking that the US shouldn't be so arrogant and full of itself, as to not be able to keep growing and getting better and not be able to learn from other countries.

I don't expect "perfect", I do expect competent. People have got to learn to elect people who can work together. The extremes that we have trying to work together right now is just not working. I know Trump can't, or perhaps shouldn't, go around legislating things on the state level(s). But if he had just stood up and told that truth, and at least had recommended and demonstrated the CDC guidelines, I think that a lot more people would have followed them and there would be a lot less virus spread and death. If he had just put on a mask, much much earlier on, and told the people that it was a good idea, and told people to reopen in phases as the CDC recommends, the reopening in the US would have gone much, much better. We are lagging so far behind in the way it's been handled in other countries it's just shameful. There are people who are saying, that on their death bed, their loved one made the dying statement that they made one mistake, that the trusted Trump. It's just too sad.

I'm thinking that if Jesus really is the Christ, which I think he is, he would have known what was to come and how things were going to unfold. I agree he was depicted this way sometimes, by those who wrote and constructed the first three gospels. Perhaps because it was how they saw things, that is what they projected onto him and how they wrote him up. Can't help but think that if Jesus had really wanted everything he said and or thought to be written down, there would be some mention of him saying that and telling someone/some people to do just that. If it had happened, wouldn't it have been in Aramic, the language that Jesus, and everyone he was communicating with, were speaking? There's no scrap of any such document(s). Instead, what we have, is to live in his spirit and love, as well as God's love and that of the Holy Spirit. . . . (with no real book(s) . . . Just the indwelling spirit, which maybe is plenty enough.

I agree with you on this, this is how the "kingdom comes" Jesus himself, as far as we know, never owned a house, or wrote a book. He even had to borrow a donkey to ride into town. He didn't have a thrown or a castle or fancy clothes and ornaments, and still he is the "king". Like you say, it's spiritual and is an experience, rather than a physical kingdom. Maybe it cover the earth someday, until then it happens and comes to each person in their own time and at their own pace and in their own understanding.

That's not so. I haven't been able to study all of Mark with this question in mind, but here are some verses in Mark that do show Jesus teaching and preaching and healing non-Jewish people: Mark 3:7 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. 8 When they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon. Tyre and Sidon are Canaanite regions. Idumea I’m still trying to figure out. I see no reason to suppose that these verses are more or less made up than any of the others Mark 5:1-20 Jesus heals a man with a demon called legion and sends them into a herd of pigs. We all know that Jews don’t eat pork, this is not a Jewish territory. It is called “the region of the Gerasenes”. This is a Gentile, culturally Greek area. Jesus tells the man to tell his own people about this, which he does in the Decaplis, (ten cities). The New Testament doesn’t say that all the people became believers, but it does say that they were all “amazed”. JS Spong states in his book ‘Jesus for the Non-Religious’ (page 197), that the ‘feeding of the 4,000’ in Mark 8:1-21 was on the “Gentile side of the lake”.

If there were a bunch of people who were not Jewish, who were converted by Jesus himself, would they and their children still be milling around the areas or nearby areas mentioned in the Gospels? Would the Jewish-Christians, in the synagogue(s) where Mark was first composed, known or been aware of some of these people and or their children? Could they have had another reason for including these peoples in Mark or the other Gospels? If they were Jewish-Christians they may have felt that they could benefit more by just making Jesus's ministry only about Jewish Christian converts, (after all they had thought of themselves as the "chosen people"). Could there have been some non-Jewish Christians that did get left out because they wanted the Gospel to be more exclusively about the Jewish people? - Perhaps they couldn't get away with leaving out all the non-Jewish Christians who were converted by Jesus, entirely, because there were just too many of them, so they had to mention at least some of them? I'm just typing down a train of thought here, and speculating. Fraid I'm not being fair to the people surrounding the composing of Mark. Just trying to get a variety of pictures on what could have been happening and this is just one of them. Could come up with another one that has entirely the opposite perspective. I'd like to think that the writing of Mark has a good amount of honesty in it, even if it was designed as liturgy and not a verbatim history. . . Just stuff to think about. Thanks for reading Edit/add > Seems to me if Mark got edited by non-Jewish-Christian people sometime later when the first copies that we have were made, they would have added a lot more Gentiles/non-Jewish converts. That is if editing was going on in relation to this topic. ----- Edit 2 > I'm adding this after thormas's last comment below, I'm out of comments again for the next 24 hours or so. Seems that there are such people in the Gospels All we have is speculation right now. If any speculations can lead people somewhere, then that could be a good thing. Perhaps all we'll ever have is speculation, and we will never know this/these things for sure. Sometimes good ideas and insights start with speculation, and other times all they'll ever be is "just speculation".

If the Gospels were created by and for the Greek speaking people in the synagogues, outside of Judea, as JS Spong says, would they have noticed this or known if this was true or not? One would think that they would have noticed this, and known where these regions were and what kinds of people lived there. If this was in the synagogues, then one would think that a good number of these people were Jewish-Christians. Would these people be more likely to include or exclude non-Jewish people in the stories concerning Jesus's ministry? Perhaps they would have done neither and just told the story as best they could remember or knew of it.

I've found another verse that shows Jesus preaching and teaching to non-Jews, alongside and with a good number of people from the Jewish regions: Mark 3:7 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. 8 When they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon. I've had a little trouble figuring out who the Idumeans are, seems like they are half Jewish and half not, but I'm not sure. Indecently Herod was Idumean. "Regions across the Jordan", sounds pretty non-Jewish to me. I believe Tyre and Sidon are Greek Hellenistic areas Edit> I'm sorry, these are Canaanite areas. I don't always do so well when just typing from memory.

Folks who use YouTube can catch the DNC here. One can even set a reminder for tonight and the next four days at their YouTube link https://www.youtube.com/demconvention

The DNC starts tonight. Governor Cuomo is speaking at it tonight too.

How bout yourself? One shouldn't "concede" if they truly feel they are right and honestly believe and or really do experience or know something. However,. . . I'm not going to say what I was going to say,.. I'm just going to leave it there. . . for now.

Have you read the book just published by Trump's niece, "Too Much and Never Enough"? Amazon gives a pretty good number of pages to preview it. Just click on the jacket cover. I found the Epilogue rather interesting. https://www.amazon.com/Too-Much-Never-Enough-Dangerous/dp/1982141468 I didn't realize his niece was a PHD psychologist or something.

I'm not all that fine with the way we sometimes disagree I'm thinking we could get better at/about it. I'm absolutely not saying don't disagree, not if one is truly being honest and not just disagreeing to disagree, or for some other reason(s). The way we sometimes do it could go a bit better, I think.

What would you do if there was nothing but a topless beach near you? You'd have to deal with it or not go. One could actually look at that statue as a form of hate speech, and possibly even a form of inciting a riot. I do appreciate it's artistry, but when good art is used to promote that kind of negative thing, it does bother me. What it took to deploy that many people in that short a time span as just one country was something phenomenon. I shudder to think what would have happened had we been two separate countries. I guess that you are lucky that you are able to move if ever you want to or feel the need. That is not so for everyone. People have to look at that statue everyday or every week. They have no choice. They also shouldn't have to leave their friends and families just to not be insulted everyday. I agree with talking things out, and getting down to what the problems really are, even if they are hard to look at. I've always felt pretty good about this country's disaster relief programs. Perhaps people, and the government, should look at what they have and haven't done to enable people to recover from natural disasters on their own, or to enable or prevent elderly widows to be able to maintain and provide for themselves in their later years. I see this happening today. I've know a good number of older women who lose out in hard and tragic ways once their husband dies. They end up below the poverty level and working minimum-wage jobs with no insurance, all the while being over 50, sometimes over 70 or 80. I've seen this time and time again. However if the wife were to pass on first, the husband is just fine and doesn't have to change a thing, doesn't have to sell his home, or get a crummy job. He can be and stay retired and not worry about food or medication or how he is ever going to live out his last days. I like the Davy Crockett song, but I disagree with him here and with Mr. Bunce too. I think they are wrong.

No one is stating what Robert died of - I'm wondering why? In this article it states that Trump said this about his brother, “the only guy in my life whom I ever call honey." Do guys usually do that? - Just thought I'd ask https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/robert-trump-the-president-c3-a2-c2-80-c2-99s-younger-brother-dead-at-71/ar-BB180XI2

Very well said. Thank You

It's nice that you are able to move to and live in a state that best reflect your views and understanding of things. It would be nice if everyone could do that without too much hardship. I agree that there is a limit to what the feds can legislate and do legally on the state level, & some of this is good and sometimes creates a relevant balance. However, the precedent that the President sets is also important. The leadership that the President gives and models can carry real weight and influence, whether or not he/she is enacting or directing the laws on the state levels. I too choose to go to places that are serious about following the CDC's guidelines. I'm not eating out while covid is going on, but in choosing where I buy groceries and other necessities, I'm much more supportive and appreciative of those organizations that care and take things for real and seriously. "Wearing is Caring" is something that one sees on the electronic billboards around here. Thing is, if organizations and groups and individuals in my area are not following the guidelines, they are not just affecting themselves and putting themselves at risk. They are spreading this thing, this covid, all over my community and my neighborhood. Why can't they be considerate and conscientious? This is just one year out of people's lives where they need to do things differently. It's not the end of the world, (hopfully) if they can't go out and party and socialize for one whole year. We will get a vaccine, it's just a matter of time. In the mean time is it too much to ask that people keep the infection and "kill" rate down?

I keep thinking about this picture and this issue. I'm descended from some Civil War Veterans from the North. I keep thinking that I would be offended and insulted by this statue. It's like, what did all these people fight and die for, just to have some weird thing like this erected and stand there for everyone to have to look at. I've met and heard about people who are still fighting our wars from the past. The Civil war, the Mexican American war, even the American Revolution. When it comes to the Civil War, and you ask people from the south, "Do you really think the US should be two separate countries?” they're like, "No, no, we don't want that!" You ask them, "Do you really want slavery back?" and they're like, "Oh no we don't want that!". So I'm like what do you want? and they're like "We want to win!" . . . I'm like, well, this was a war, it was actually about something, it's not a game where it's just about winning cause there's nothing else to do. Some wars actually had meanings and were fought for real reasons. Thing is, if the US had become two separate countries, what would have happened during WWII? Could the Nazis have taken over the entire world ? and then where would we be? That being said, I've met people who are descended from southern, white, plantation holders that are the nicest, fair minded people that you'd ever want to meet. I've also met a good number of closet Yankees from the south, who just say they don't feel comfortable being that open about it down south. Myself, I don't hold people responsible for their heritage. I don't even hold people responsible for their parents. Blaming people for what other people have done, even in their own families to me involves a twist of thinking that just isn't healthy and it can even get quite weird and dysfunctional. ------------------------------------------- I don't know if this makes sense or not, but if people in the south, or anywhere, are genuinely feeling overwhelmed and "threatened" by other groups of people, there are much more sensible ways of dealing with it than calling out the kkk or building statues to past defenders of slavery. For one thing they can sit down and talk about it and discuss what the future might look like so everyone can have a decent and secure future. I really believe that this world is big enough so that people can be both culturally-centric and integrate, depending on their own choices and preferences, and people can actually chose to do both like six of one and a half dozen of the other. I think that both are great and wonderful and important in this world and in the future. An example of when one group of people was feeling overwhelmed by another occurs in Genesis 26: 16-31. I'm not saying that things need to be done like this or anything like this. I'm just trying to say that there are more sensible ways of dealing with things than what we see going on now, or in the past when that statue was erected. This is a shortened version of Genesis 26: 16-31 16 Then Abimelech said to Isaac, “Go away from here, because you are far too overwhelming/powerful for us.” 17 So Isaac left that region and camped in the Valley of Gerar, and settled there. .... .... 22 He moved away from there and dug another well, and they did not quarrel over that one; so he named it Rehoboth (broad places), saying, “For now the Lord has made [d]room for us, and we shall be [e]prosperous in the land.” Covenant with Abimelech 26 Then Abimelech came to him from Gerar with Ahuzzath, his [close friend and confidential] adviser, and Phicol, the commander of his army. 27 Isaac said to them, “Why have you [people] come to me, since you ... have sent me away from you?” 28 They said, “We see clearly that the Lord has been with you; so we said, ‘There should now be an oath between us, that is, between you and us, and let us make a covenant (binding agreement, solemn promise) with you, 29 that you will not harm us, just as we have not touched you and have done nothing but good to you and have sent you away in peace. You are now the blessed and favored of the Lord!’” 30 Then Isaac held a [formal] banquet (covenant feast) for them, and they ate and drank. 31 They got up early in the morning and swore oaths [pledging to do nothing but good to each other]; and Isaac sent them on their way and they left him in peace. ------------------------------ The same thing seems to be happening with regards to immigration, both here in the US and in other places around the world. A lot of people genuinely want to help other people around the world who are having a hard time or are not able to deal with things. At the same time there are people who are concerned about being overwhelmed by other groups of people and other cultures. Perhaps if there were programs, where people could come to this country, or other countries, for a while, and gain some skills, save some currency, and get some ideas, and then return to their homelands with ideas and skills and ways of improving things, so people don’t have to keep leaving their homelands just to eat or be safe. People could do this in groups, even with well thought out plans and ideas for the future. This way everyone could have a future everywhere, instead of just here and there and all on top of each other. ------------------------------- Just saying. Feel free to disagree with me. It’s just stuff I’ve been thinking about for a while and maybe some of it would work out. Thanks for reading

Yeah, I heard that too. Wonder how good it is, or if anyone will be able to access it besides people in Russia. Don't think I'll hold my breath on any of that helping people here in the US real soon. Wonder if they'll share their recipe

I've got to say that I think that good leadership counts here. It's all well and good if individuals decide they want to wear masks and go along with the CDC's guidelines. Even if ALL individuals think about it and think they want to do it. If government and leadership doesn't get everyone on the same page, it's not going to work and it's not going to happen. Why would individuals go and wear a mask if everybody, or most of everybody, isn't going to do it? It just wouldn't make sense. It's not just about what people do to and for themselves. Get that thing, that virus, circulating around the community, one's own community, and people could be asking for real problems and real hazards. They could be ripping their own communities apart. There also seems to be such a thing as "viral load". It's one thing if a person gets one or two viri, their bodies can probably handle it and flush it out. Get a whole lot of the virus from two or three different people and one could really be in trouble, no matter how young and healthy they are. That's what Dr. Fauci is saying, that he's cautiously optimistic that we'll have a vaccine by the beginning of next year. I hope that you are staying safe and healthy. Best Wishes and Good Luck with everything.

I sometimes wonder if trusting in the Lord and loving Em/them (the trinity) intertwines with our own understanding or spiritual understanding of things. - - - (though not so much when I got mad at thormas and probably have said a wrongish thing here and there 😞 ) - - - Thanks for saying you think I'm on the right track. Maybe I'll check out your book at some point. I'm not so good and doing purchases online, the whole thing just scares me. Snail-mail and old fashioned stores are much more my way of doing things. Same with supporting this forum so I can make more comments and stuff. I'm just not big on online purchasing. I'll check out some of your posts from previous years. Thanks

Yes, very much so. But if we forget the reasons that they are there in the first place, then they die anyways, because we don't know why we're doing things and they seem nonsensical. I've been thinking about this country's sense of good citizenship a lot lately. It seems that because parts of it really needed to be changed and re-thought-out, and updated, it seems like a lot of people just got mad at "good citizenship" in and of itself, and threw their whole sense of good citizenship out entirely. They/we felt betrayed by "good citizenship" or the sense of good citizenship we had been taught. So it was 'good citizenship' itself that got attacked and ripped apart. Attacking one's or the country's whole sense of 'good citizenship' has not turned out to be a very good idea. 😞

I've read two things about herd immunity: One is that we get it the same way people got it in the 1918 epidemic, where 50,000,000 (50 million) people died. The other is that we get it through a vaccine. I vote for number 2 !! Thing is we really do need to play it safe and practice the CDC's and medical experts guidelines until we get a vaccine. We really do.

God is ever-present,... but we can't experience Em directly . . ? . . I'm mad at you right now . . . I'm afraid I'll say the wrong thing,.. if I haven't already . . . 😞 . . . 😞 & that's that . . 😞 . . . 😞 . . . 😞 . . :-(