MsPragmatic

Thanks Norm, Not sure I have interest at this time although it has often intrigued me and I have had a curiosity about their teachings. Interestingly I live in a part of the country and rural small town that there are none listed within 50 miles of my home. Wow, what does that say I wonder? Enjoy your weekend!

Thank you for sharing Norm, It helps to understand others in a similar place, more than I can tell you. My lineage goes back to Ashkenazim which I learned only in the last couple of years as being somewhere in our very distant ancestral past, on our paternal side, surprisingly because my mother's side are European and her family remains there today I thought that is where it would have been found. I am very interested in family history and one of these days might look in to that more closely for my own interests. I no longer attend a church, the last was the Episcopal church. When my father died I never seemed to find my way back. Prior to that time I mentioned my attendance being sporadic throughout my life. I'd like to backtrack, it helps me to better understand the bigger picture when I do that. My first exposure was as a young girl, we attended a small as I recall, Catholic church on an army base in Europe. I only recall going a couple two or three times if that much, even then I'm not sure why, good question for my mom I suppose. I didn't think too much about it at the time, it remains a nice memory. Later prior to my early teens we joined a Grace Brethren Church, dad never went except for a very special occasion or occasional picnics where he enjoyed preparing foods or hot chocolate. I loved those times we went as a family. I do recall trying to get him to go on other occasions, it was always the same answer, 'you will never change my religion, once a Catholic, always a Catholic,' but, he was non practicing so I truly don't know how important it even was to him. We attended there about 3 years pretty regularly. Aside from the fun of Sunday school and engaging with friends and being close to do many activities together which I always enjoyed, I don't recall coming away with anything more than being saved in the church because big brother chose to be saved one day, so too did middle and little brother so somehow I felt 'duty' call. I really did not realize what it was all about but it 'felt right'. Our baptisms were each unique too, it was a time of innocence and security is the best I can describe it. Moving from this place we no longer sought out a church and our family life went on. The two older siblings had their own lives and cars while me and my younger remained in the home and often looking for things to fill our time. Friends introduced us to their church experience, we chose to attend VBS a couple of summers, but outside of that time in our lives church was not really a focus. Later, when I had my own children I was encouraged by other young mothers to attend a place of worship. Being a 'dutiful' mother I felt that the option was a good one so that my own children would be 'guided' if you will by my choice of 'doing the right' thing. So, we chose a Baptist church, pretty fundamental although I did not focus on church politics until one day I was asked to run a children's Sunday school. I thought, 'I really don't have the biblical knowledge to teach anyone else,' but I allowed myself to be talked in to doing so. I never enjoyed it although I gave it my best. Nothing to go wrong with if I took lessons right from the Bible right?! I suppose thinking back on it, I only served to add my own ideas on what that was to mean to then small children and if it shaped their thinking down the road. My oldest son surprisingly called the preacher on something he'd said one Sunday, not being 12-13 years old himself at the time. The preacher was preaching about animals not having a soul or something about their not getting into heaven and that did not sit right with my son so he asked him why he thought that and told him he disagreed. Pow! An eye opener to the realm of questioning! Thanks son! I guess that's where I gained my future courage, my sound encouraged it no doubt! I respected his need to better understand and with a little time and looking back today, that might just be where my own questioning began to come in. I sure wasn't happy with teaching a Sunday school class but again, felt it my 'duty' in a sense. The more time went on, the more I didn't want to be there. I would say in that same year we left that little church. People, including the pastor weren't too pleased with us but I felt fine! I think the kids didn't care one way or other. I was in spiritual limbo for a time after that, enjoying my Sunday's where I didn't have to get dressed and head out the door any longer. I still felt a sense of god during that time yet I sought a better understanding. I muddled through different speakers, authors, etc.., for a few years, met another friend, joined the Episcopal Church, loved their service for about 6 years, up until my father's passing. Prior to that, even their rituals seemed repetitive and without much substance, I felt more and more distanced from the church. I loved the people there and the different type of service it offered, I suppose if I were to go back (which I don't believe I would for the sake of worshiping 'god') it would be solely for the community experience, thus causing me to suppress my own understanding for fear of rejection. I treasure the people in my life, old friends and new, Christian, non Christian or whatever direction they choose in life, AND I respect their right to choose just as my own yet I feel if I truly exposed myself I would lose many people dear to me so I muddle on without the need to share that deepest part of myself yet find it sometimes harder and harder not to want to share my thoughts because holding them in just seems to suppress much of what I would love to be able to openly discuss. So... that is where this forum seems to come in handy and at the moment, I am most grateful! Being in this 'place' I currently am and adhering to no particular faith, nor total atheism or secular humanism or anything that has a label, I feel like a floater for lack of a better word! I guess I could put myself into the 'non-theistic' category. But, I feel good and right and true to myself and for me personally, I think it is as it should be. Anything else as I shared would be for someone else, superficial, not who I am. We are all entitled to learn about the world in which we live, none the exception, it is a freedom I invite and want to live out although having answers would be the ultimate yet whether good or bad, who knows how it would leave one to feel, this 'knowing', for now I'll just continue my journey and absorb all I can along the way, maybe to 'Never-land'... Thank you for sharing Constantine's Sword Norm, I will certainly be curious to look into it! Sorry if I've bored anyone to death with my rambling, it helps me to look back and see more clearly that world in which I lived and how and why things have and continue to change with my place in it. ~Peace

Thank you both so much for taking the time to share. I can see some of myself in your words and know I am not alone although I do feel in a very small minority compared to the rest of the world claiming Christianity. My worry is if I were to be open about the way I felt I surely would lose some of the people close to me that I've considered friends & family most of my life so I have kept it to myself and continue to explore those changes and how they can and do affect me. Like you Paul, I feel like some would think it their job to convince or 'fix' me, others might see me altogether as a threat not realizing my desire is not to change them or their beliefs. I am not any different than I ever was except that I allow myself to see and try to understand and make sense of the world around me without the 'help' of others or through their eyes if it means deciding for me. I also can not see myself going back to what once gave me that sense of security because it no longer does. Like you seem to word so well Joseph, I too would love to find that deep peace and new understanding that agrees with me hoping that doesn't sound selfish or self serving but brings back at least some sense of comfort blind faith once seemed to give and can no longer. As to 'God' I can't say for me whether or not the journey is still out as I no longer know what if anything that means to me personally or if I even consider God a believable option any longer. Again, thank you for sharing, we aren't a whole lot different it seems.

Thank you for your replies. Paul, I apologize for misunderstanding or misinterpreting your comments. Personally I am in line with your last statement keeping in mind we are all free to choose and respecting every individual's right to do so even if I don't understand. Joseph, What a history account, the Bible relives! I don't classify myself as or claim any particular group at this time although I may well fit into some of the classifications. Thank you for sharing the 8 points, I have seen them mentioned on the boards but have not really gone over them yet. It is still hard for me to shake the title Christian because of the initial definition of which I no longer claim. It seems the latter statement in the definition is in direct opposition of the initial definition and I find that to be confusing. Perhaps I am reading too much in to it. Thank you both for engaging me.

Hello, I hope I have the appropriate board. I am not really sure in which direction I am taking this but want to ask, for those who have a past history in the church and whose views have changed substantially to the other side of that faith, how has the transformation, for lack of a better word, changed you? For me personally that change came much later in my life beginning, if I can put a time frame to it, around the age of 32, when I noticed I no longer felt a 'fit' within the confines of fundamental Christianity and 'floated' about trying to make sense of what I thought I knew and in actuality, didn't really know at all. The change affected me more profoundly after losing a very close loved one, namely, my father, at the age of 42, that truly pushed me forward into facing and trying to figure out what I once believed and how it fit or did not fit in to what I actually believed to be a personal truth for me. It was a process, a 'coming out' if you will, quite honestly I have only 'come out' to myself and the one person closest to me, we are both in different places and although I often say I'm a work in progress, he stands at peace in the place in which he has chosen and respects me completely for my own taking a stand. I am still exploring what that means to and for me as I realize nothing is certain yet I feel religion and Christianity is no longer something I can pr want to, 'accept' on blind faith. I am still reeling with the impact of those changes and realizations and what they mean to me personally. Those 'changes' have affected my thinking and understanding over time quite profoundly. In a sense I very much mourn the loss of the security religion/Christianity once gave me and on the other hand, I embrace my new found sense of what is real to me personally, enabling me to feel a freedom I've never felt. My beliefs and thoughts on the matter of religion vs. whatever 'category' I can now place myself into have caused some personal distress and I find it difficult not to mourn the passing of what I once took security in for all that I learned and accepted on that once 'blind faith'. It just no longer works for me if I am to be true to myself. It has left me quite bitter though for trying to 'shed' the false realities I once embraced because it leaves me bare and feeling quite alone. I would welcome others of you who have been through a similar experience to share and how you have dealt with or are dealing with this. With all due respect to others who are in different places, there can be no better place than that place which feels right and good to our understanding. Thank you for your time.

Hi and thank you for your reply Paul. I appreciate your encouragement. I sincerely invite and encourage thoughts, ideas and experiences to draw on and learn from and sense this might be a good place for them. You mention many being knowledgeable concerning things about Christianity, do you mean in the literal definition of the word? The definition I found online and quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christ, a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term Messiah.[1] Central to the Christian faith is the gospel, the teaching that humans have hope for salvation through the message and work of Jesus, and particularly, his atoning death on the cross[2] and resurrection.[3] Christians also believe Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.[4] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, a description of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This includes the vast majority of churches in Christianity, although a minority are Non-trinitarians. There are diverse interpretations of Christianity which sometimes conflict.[5][6] However, "Whatever else they might disagree about, Christians are at least united in believing that Jesus has a unique significance.”[5] The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."[7]It is also used as a label to identify people who associate with the cultural aspects of Christianity, irrespective of personal religious beliefs or practices.[8] I personally do not necessarily agree with the initial definition of Christian or Christianity in the definition (taken from Wikipedia) above until you get down to the last sentence [8] I hope it is alright to admit that here, just being true to my personal understanding. I associate Christian or Christianity with religion, belief in God and that Christ is our savior. I respect others beliefs but this does not change my own thinking on the matter, it no longer works for me personally. I do wonder if one has little to no belief system in a deity how one can continue to call themselves and feel accepted a Christian, if I am correct that is what Mr. Spong also refers to himself as being. That is one thing I would like to better understand here if I can. Thank you for taking the time.

Hello and thank you Joseph, I am new enough to the site that I haven't yet figured out just where to begin. I am in fact fairly new to a lot of the thinking I have explored these past 8-10 years and still trying to figure out just how and where it all fits into my life. Silly as it sounds, for years I took the Belief OMatic Quiz on Belief Net for the fun of exploring who I was in a 'spiritual' sense if that is what I can call it. Each time it seems the test scored different results with my answers, out of that same curiosity I took it again today to find out my result was in alignment with secular humanism, defined also as atheist or agnostic. I've come a long way from that first test that gave me plenty even then to explore in the Christianity realm at the time because I still appeared to hold on to some what I now call, ingrained beliefs. Now I don't know if I can even claim Christianity and exactly what that means or no longer means for me. I do feel very isolated and that doesn't help! The only truth I can find is that in which I am able to make sense of and making sense of religion is no longer an option for me in which to return and remain true to myself or way of understanding. It's a lonely walk. I fear admitting it to anyone because more than not my closest friends and family are Christian and religious. I have yet to meet anyone close to me with similar beliefs and find myself wondering if some sort of counseling would prove helpful in finding my way to accepting and being able to feel I'm not the minority in my personal views of life, death and the lack of religious belief. Perhaps this is the wrong forum but when I read Mr. Spong's views they so closely mirror many of my own, I have to wonder how he has made it this far with the world knowing his story?! Nothing at all wrong with the truth as we know it and I admire him greatly for it, this I understand, yet there are many to condemn a person for unbelief in a supreme deity and I feel as though many if they knew might well turn their backs on me. I can and do respect others in their own views on religion yet I can no longer make myself align with their thinking even if I respect and observe with them their beliefs and rituals. You are welcome to guide me to a discussion if there is a more appropriate forum for what I have shared. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for the opportunity to share on a forum that I hope to feel comfortable enough to explore, ask questions and learn from. Growing up I had limited exposure to Christianity. We were not a deeply religious family but we did participate sporadically when the invitation was extended us, if just out of curiosity or a need to know a deeper understanding on my mother's part. She too was brought up with religion not being a real focus in the family although special occasions warranted attendance in her German family and on those occasions the children went. She shared her father, my grandfather said his religion was nature. I often think about those words. Dad was a non practicing Roman Catholic, said he would never be anything else, truthfully, I don't think he cared even though there are pieces he clung to and held firmly to, (perhaps he held hope, certain faith, I don't really know) I don't know what the war did to him, he never spoke of it but he did cry at the recital of the rosary and hail Mary's which I loved to, as seldom as it happened, hear him speak often with tears in his eyes. He was of the depression era generation, a WWII soldier, our family's stronghold and his passing affected me profoundly thus furthering my quest for understanding of what life and death truly means to me personally and not what some religion or person thinks I need to believe for my own 'saving'. That was often my downfall, living for others. No more, although me sporadic exposures to different churches did indeed shape my belief system early on, one that for me personally has been hard to shake leaving me to feel bitter that it was instilled in me as well as countless others to muddle through if ever questioning came. I am not sorry that I began to question, I am thankful. Without it I could not be true to myself or simply 'accept' on 'faith' as is still expected today. I often find myself baffled by the countless others continuing on in their faith but also envy them for being content in that it is enough, yet it would never be 'enough' for me personally, not since questioning it all. This is where Mr. Spong's writings and views as well as others come in and are profoundly in line with my own thinking on matters of religion and faith. I am currently reading 'Eternal Life: A New Vision' and finding deep understanding within its pages. I choose NOT to go along with anyone's teachings unless it coincides with my own understanding but I am always open to learning and deeper understanding from others. Perhaps I am stubborn that way but this book is truly remarkable and I have enjoyed others as well by Mr. Spong for their clarity and insight. Before it appears I am beginning a book of my own I will stop here. I look forward to future interaction on the boards. Thank you for your time!