mgf50

I like your description of the Gnostic Cross and I am thinking of wearing one. I like its symbol of oneness and Wholeness. I have come to believe our separate, individuial selves is an illusion. Every seven years every cell in our body has died and has been replace. Who we are as persons is influenced by our environment, culture and the people around us. There are people in my life who had died who have had a great influence on who I am. I like the idea that when die we all come together as One or that we each contribute to the Whole. I would like to explore more the meaning this has in Gnosticism. The empty cross that is suppose to represent the salvation of life after death has little meaning for me. However, the image of Jesus, dyiing on the cross and saying 'My God, my God, why has Thou forsaken me, had great meaning for me when I spenjt a year neglected in hospital. It reminded me that suffering was a universal experience and what it meant to suffer with grace. Marilyn

Yes I have not only read the "Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels but I have made extensive notes and copies quotations from her book. I hope to do the same with her book "Beyond Belief" which I have read. I really lke the Gnostic idea of The Christ within rather then as a Histrical person. I fascinated that Paul is considered by some to be a Gnostic. I also believe in the terachings of Jesus, whether this comes from a historical person or a Jewish adaptation of Greek wisdom literature. If you can imagine Jesus as your neighbour this is great for you. Even Mother Theresa talked about how we should see Jesus in the poor in those who suffer. I do think we radiate the Christ when we can suffer with Grace and when we can forgive those who cause our suffering. Usually those wh are oppressive are wounded themselves and do not have the Grace to work through there suffering. I want this, this is what I am searching for Christ in you, may he fill thy Spirit

I have just finished reading the "Jesus puzzle" by Earl Doherty. Fascinating book. I talks about how Paul, who wrote his letters, before the Gospels were written. Rather then talk about a historical Jesus, Paul writes about the "Christ within". This resonates more with me. Doherty also writes that Paul does not come down to earth but descends to the lower part of heaven and wrestle and killed by "evil pricipalities'. I don't know quite what to make of this but I am intrigued. Certainly the mythological approach makes more sense then the hstorical approach. The Jesus Seminar claims that the "Q Gospel" or the common sayings of Matthew and Luke, are the authentic saying of Jesus. Doherty takes a different approach. He claims that these 'sayings' are taken from both the Jewish Literature, Song of Solomon etc. and from the Greek Wisdom literature. He says the Jewish Wisom Literature and the sayings of the Q Gospel both arose from the Greek Wisdom Literature about the same time. I am fascinated by this and I am in the process of studying the Hebrew Wisdom Literature. Marilyn

S>My parents dis-owned me and kicked me out of the house in High School. My brother and my country betrayed me so I too had resentment and anger. Thanks to unattachment I gave up the emotions and am now helping my parents in their old age and have relations with my brother. M>I admire the way you are able to help your parents when they treated you so badly. Did they ever appologize to you? How do they treat you now? It take tremendous maturity and acceptance to be present to them when they treated you likethe did. I admire your strength. SMy emotions within and without resolved themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when I focused on simple unity and have become acquainted with the pure consciousness that is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, I entered into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because I realized that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. M>I had a friend who was misdiagnosed and became paralyzed from the neck down. When she was properly diagnosed and given the right medication. she became able-bodied again. When I asked he if she was bitter about what happened to her she said oh no, I would have never realized how important it was to be inter-dependent. I think? this illustratres what you are saying. When we see our situation from a broader perspective we can see how are experience fits into the larger whole. S What happened to me left scares, but they have healed and are now scares of strength. I am glad all that happened because it sent me searching for my true home. M> You scars or wounds have become your strength. Harvey Cox. points out in "Fire from Heaven" how pain makes us search for a redefinition of the world. This is certainly true for me. My disabilty has led me to search intensely for spirtual answers that question traditional values and traditional Christianity which I believe I would have otherwise taken for granted. I don't yet know how to make use of the insights I've gained expept by sharing them with people like you on the internet. S>When I lived as a monk I became closer to women than ever before because I was unattached to any relationship. Maybe, because I and the women were not threatened by each other we could become very close. M>I was thinking yesturday how because of my disabiliy I demand more intensity in conversation and in relationships. I have no time for shallow chit chat. This led me to marry a man who is deeply spiritual. I can't say so much that I am unattached to my disability as much as struggling with it has made me look at life in a deeper way with more intensity. Having a good time in a consumer culture strikes me as a waste of time. I am very attached to struggling with issues of oppression, poverty and disconnecting relationships and finding what need is needed for transformation. I don't like what's happening in this world and spends my time tying to understand how it can be trransformed. S>I think unattachment can be interpreted in many ways, but I see it as a tool to witness and not be attached to the physical realm trying to control and manipulate things. It helps me to let it be and flow. I often see the importance of leting go but I confess letting go is very difficult. I have spent most of my life banging my head against the wall trying to overcome my disability. I usually let go by finding alternatives. One thing i have let go of is trying to work in this competetive culture after Ontario repealed the Employment Equity Act. I now put my energy into studying and writing on the internet. I only pray that this will enable me to make a contribution in some way. Marilyn

I have a lot of confusion with unattachment with not caring, and wish to explore it with you. This may involve confessions that I am not proud of I spent a year in hospital. The first 3 months, I was actually happy for the most part. I had hope of walking again. I felt connect to people and could even be present to listen to their problems. This fell apart when I was moved to another hospital, told I would I would never walk again, and strongly felt that the staff was saying this so they did not have to make the effort to help me. Rather then be unattatched I was angry. I don't know how I could be uattached in this situation without felling hopeless and giving up. I am having difficulty seeing the diifference between severe depression wnere you just give up and unattachment Fortunate someone came along and helped me use my anger to get myself out of that situation. I could have easily just become depressed and given up. I see my sister is very unattached. When I asked her for help in getting out of the hospital she went into great detail about what a burden I was to her. I still don't understand why she could just say ''I'm sorry, but I can't cope with helping you." I heard this is blaming me for my disability. I retaliated by in effect saying I wish she were in my shoes. She said I was abusive and has become very unattatched by not speaking to me since: eight years. When my family, expecialy my mother, says things that reflect her negative attitude to my disability. I know I should be unattatched, should shut down and be seen and not heard. Instead I become angry and avoid her. Sometime, when I am feeling confident and mature, I can see how my mother lacks the intelligence to see how her middle class values devalue me. My mother's focus on pride and achievement makes her blind as to who I am as a person beyond my disability. When I try to esplain she just says what an excellent mother she was:driving me, doing my hair and telling me to try harder to overcome my disability. My mother has an Atterntion Deficit Disorder which has never been diagnosed and btherefore she denies. Because she is unable to recognize and come to terms with her own disability, she is an extremel defensive and controlling person. Her difficulty in acknowledging her own disability makes it difficult to accept and come to terms with mine. Her pride, arrogance and grandiosity just rub me the wrong way. I need to accept the way she is before I can forgive and have compassion. How would unattachment prevent me from abandoning her? Perhaps the answer is to be unattached to being devalued because of my disability. I find this difficult to do as I have had to live with it all my llife. Actually I find it worse then the disability itself. I deal with it by refocusinng on positive relationships and my theological study. By being involve in a progressive church, I've made a life for myself. In India, it sounds like you were unattached in terms of poccessions but not in terms of relationships---people did care for you. Marilyn Marilyn

M> I don't have much hope that the wealthy G8 crountries have little concern for disadvantage crountries. It seems that poverty is more apt to create a culture of sharing. I was surpised to learn that when men from working class and lowincome families join the pentecostal church they save some money by not drinking etc. However, rather then spend the money on themseves, they use the money to provide supports for those less fortuanate. I see a strong link between faith and hope in disadvantage crountries like Africa. If they can't have hope in the life, their faith gives them hope in the next life. My observation is that when people have hope they are more likely to take control of their lives and turn things around. For others, faith in the next life allows them to detach from hope and attatchment to this life when suffering is too overwhelming. For me, I perfer acceptance to unattachment. I confuse unattachment with hopelessness. I perfer acceptance which means for me working with a situation with the hope that the situation will be meaningful in itself. Marilyn

S>That is very enlightening. You are witnessing the mind, which tells me you are beyond the mind. Watching your thoughts come and go without being attached. M< While I believein this I can't say I'm good at practicing it. One thing I find helps is chanting. It help me let go of my 'stewing' and refocus. "Abiide with me" is my favourite. S>Yes, we all trip in the Dark Night of the Soul, but we have a great example in Jesus who tripped 3 times on his way up the mount, but he got up knowing where the corridor was leading him. M>What strikes me is not that Jesus didn't experience the Dark Night of the Soul but that he accepted it. I find it helpful that even Jesus is said to have said "My God, my God, why has Thou forsaken me.' S>In my life which gets longer day by day I have observed that my highs are not as high, but my lows are not as low, I am enjoying the show much more now that everything is even and not so choppy. M> I would be interested to know more about how you got to this point. Presently, I am studying Harvey Cox's book "Fire from Heven." In the past I rejected exuberant emotion of the Pentecostals as something evil. Now, I am beginning to wonder how much this has to do with my upbring and cultural baggage. I am fascinated to read how African-Americans see their exuberant emotion as a gift from God to counter their horrendous suffering and oppression. It is also a sign of hope that the Kingdom of God would be established on earth. Their faith gave them strength to deal with suffering. "Speaking in Tongues" gives them an emotional outlet similar to what psychologist call "The Primal Scream" It was a safe outlet for their fears, anxieties and anger. I personally need somethying more calming. While I believed that for traditional African-American this emotion is authentic, it seems that within modern culture it can be manipulated. This is what I don't trust Looking back over the cliff I see all the struggles to climb, the thorns and the hardships, started externally, but they brought me internally to the path which brings me so much comfort. Peace M>This sounds to me like a process of transformation. I'd like to hear more about your story M>My understanding of Gnosticism is that they believe that knowing yourself leads to going God. The Gospel of Thomas says: "Ther is a light within a man of light, and it lights up the whole world. If he does not shine , he is in darkness." I believe this light refer to the Christ or Divine within. Meditations, dreams, prayers, chanting can lead to this self-knowledge. Instead of sin, gnostics believe that ignorance is the problem. When we don't know ourself we act out of impulses which can lead to destruction. Marilyn

I don't bellieved in a physical resurection either but rather that our nodies return to the earth as food for new life. I also believe that when we die, our spirits, and what we lived for remain as part of the evolutionary energy of creation. I know that the people in my life who have died remain a strong part of who I am. I thought you might be interested in Tom Harper's latest book "Livinng Waters". (He is a Canadian Anglican Priest who taught at the University of Toronto School of Theology. He says "Since following the ancient wisdom we are all of us sharer's in divinity--possessing a spark or flame of the divine within--I have argued in The Paga Christ that the diviinity protrayed by Jesus--whom the Bible insists was fully human--was essentially the same as ours. He expressed or reflected it more fully in his dramatic role then the rest of us. It is a difference of degree rather then of kind. Harper saw that Paul knew Christ in Spirit, not in the flesh. Some believe that Paul was a Gnostic who believed that Christ was the spark of the devine within each of us. This is why I am fascinated by the Gnostics. For the Gnostics Jesus manifested the Christ that is in all of us. I am finding my journey a lonely one. I am only a Christ in the gnostic sense of the words, not in the orthodox sense. However, I am not an atheist either. I find that Tom Harper and some of the other members of the Jesus Seminar make me feel I am not quite so alone. Marilyn

[i am sorry if I jumped to conclusions. Maybe you could talk a little more about your own stuggle with faith. Marilyn

Loveapple When you describe your husband's faith, or lack of faith the cliche "Easy come, easy go" comes to mind. I'm convinced that those of us who are compelled to struggle with faith are not content with the shallow and superficial. I believe that anything with depth comes as a result of struggle and suffering. The fact that you acknowledge a divine spark within you is in itself a sign of hope. Obviously faith is important to you, despite this struggle, or you would be more willing to let go. Marilyn

Soma S> The dark night of the soul is part of it, like a wheel we are at the top enjoying the fruit, but the wheel turns bringing us down to the bottom, but the wheel keeps on turning. M> I like your description of the dark night of the soul as being as being part of the wheel (I would say of transformation.) Although this has been my experience, when I am in the dark night i project that it will last forever. S. As the mind explores these things it is led to thoughts that lie beyond the grasp of the ego and reason. If the spiritual practices are done in a meaningless way, that person is wasting his time because the person who knows the significance of what he is doing can overcome the ego's tendencies and make real the Christian purpose of life. M>I think you are saying that Christion practice is only meaningful if they are done with mindfulness. This is what I like about Stiener's Christian community Church where the Eucharist (They call it the Cosecreation of Man) is perform by the priest and the congreation is to meditate or follow the words. My mind wauders but rather then "whipping" myself, I see this is part of the process. Usually my mind wonders to struggle with a problem or relationship but I allow this to be part of the spriritual practice. S> Regardless of the suffering we have experienced we are able to achieve a new state of mind and are born again, when we change our focus from the lower layers of the mind to the higher ones M> I would say we are 'born again' or transformed through suffer. My observation that transformation without suffering remains shallow and superficial It is through suffering that we learn to let go and accept the limitations and find our strengths. For me dicotomizing it into higher and lower implies rejection of part of ourselve whereas transformation resuts from self-acceptance, S> This new state of mind is living in the present and is a projection of living in eternity. The ego has pride in the past and fear for the future so letting go of the future and the past lets the ego drop away too. In reality it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. The proof is in our experience by experiment and not theory. M> My experience is that I am most often forced to live in the moment when I am in the midst of suffering. I spent a year in hospital as a result of a complicated hip operation. I was aware of living from moment to moment when I was absorbed in somethin outside myself. For me this often took the form of stories. I remember my mother reading a storyabout a cumudgenary cat while I waited for mysecond operation. Christmas Eve I was alone in hospital but got lost in the CBC story "Sheperherd" The story about the spirit of a dead pilot. guiding a disabled plane to safe landing on an obsolete runway in the middle of nowhere. I was in that plane. S> When one concentrates only on what is happening in the present, the moment is pure awareness without any desire. To live in the past or for the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is the habit of the ego to live in this unreality, but as we discard and release all ideas contrary to the present, our experience achieves full measure in the here and now. M> I am not sure if 'letting go of the ego" is the right term. I belong to Buddhist group when I was in my twenties. They talked about 'letting go of the ego' but the also talked about "having basic confidence. To me this was a contradiction. How could one be confident if onee had no sense of who they were? I agree with what you are saying but prefer the term "self-centerness" or "self-absorbed" Ego for me, is having a strong senses and acceptance of own strengths and limitations so that that one no longer needs to be peocupied with proving one's own worth or value. One comes to this through the process of accepting suffering. I am not there yet but I have brief moments of it. S> This reality is total and whole, not the past or future because we are not looking over our shoulder or standing on our toes to see what’s ahead. We all fall into the dark night, I find myself in this predicament, when I am removed from the present. In the present moment I can feel Christ guiding my every move as if he is moving for me. M> For me sometimes Christ is the model of arcfhetype of someone who is able to let go of self by accepting sufffering, and being absorbed into the Whole. Other times, when I have a brief experience of being in the state, I see myself as being "in Christ", or in the state of Grace. I experience this briefly after a long hard stuggle to transcend, accept and work with suffering. Thank you for this conversation and giving me the opportunity to articulte both my struggle and conclusions of the process of Transformation through suffering. I appreciate the opportunity to probe this with you at a deeper level. Marilyn

Soma Thank you for your encouraging response. I have had a long hard struggle with faith ever since I was a teen-ager in the United Church of Canada. The Literal interpretation of the Bible nedver made any sense to me, but when I needed faith I had nothing to fall back on. I like you concept of God as Unity. I have also used the term Wholeness but I really mean the same thing. I am exploring what that really means emotionally, not just intellectualy. Today I finished reading Harvey Cox's "Fire From Heaven". How initially Pentacostalism was more about moving from authority of the Church to auuthority of Spirit. Yes, I have trouble with the emotional manipuloation of speaking in tongues and all of that. Cox however talks about this being an Africa sensibility, of going beyond the literal interpretation of words. Having been brought up with rages and temper tantrums eand my own feeling discounted, I came to associate exuberant emotion with evil. When I go to my sisters Pentalcostal Church, i want to scream be still and know that I am God." I always associated esctaacy with interior emotion and silence. I have occassionally fround grace inn quiet tears. Now I beginning to wonder if my reaction to Pentacostals is cultujra prejudice. I am also intrigues by my study of the Gnostics wher Christ is an experience of inner knowing. For me the Dark night of the soul is more real then estascy, I can more relate to Anderson's description in the 'Spiral Staircase" whe she descibes estascy as being absorrbed in something outside ones self, marilyn

I read this book some time ago so I don't remember all the details but found it fascinating. I have also read that the Gospel of Thomas forms the basis for the Q sayings. There are controversies regvarding these sayings. Some say they provide the evidence that there was a historical Jesus. Others say that there is no written transcipt that gives us the Q sayings and therefore there is no reliable evidence for their existance outside of one writer coping the other. I don't know what to make of this controvery but you give me an incentive to look at them again and see what they actually say. Marilyn

W>Fundamentalism says that we have no right to look at our belief system critically and to accept (or reject) only the parts that makes sense to us. It insists that the baby must be thrown out with the bathwater. It is so successful at this lie, that most of the stuff you find on the internet (or in literature) that has to do with leaving fundamentalism entails that you leave Christianity altogether. And many have. Maybe that is a good thing. M>I found it useful to read Karen Anderson's "Battle for God" She exaplaiins how fundamentalism in Christianity, Judism and Islem is a fairly recent phenomen arising in the 1800. For Christians fundamentalism is a response to the uncertainty of liberalism and the fear of meanjinglessness and loss of identity, for Jews it is a reavtion steming from the nihiliation of the Holocaust, for Moslems it the threat of colonialism. Fundamentalist cannot tolerate doubt and uncertainty in their believes because it threaten their identity. Anderson talks about how our response to fundamentalism might be empathy for their fear. W>It took a while but I am not searching through my soul and my life for what can be salvaged. I am not so sure that I am looking for the "truth" (as it seems to be very subjective) but I am looking for what is meaningful, what is transforming. And I'm learning that it is beneficial (and probably necessary) to be critical of what I hear and read that claims to speak for God. This turn in my path requires discernment like nothing else I've ever known. It also requires letting go of the anger and bitterness, but that is itself a process. But it is also leading me into a freedom that I never thought possible. I don't have to be right. And I don't have to convince others that they are wrong. And I certainly am not going to give the welfare or salvaging of my soul to *anyone* else except myself and God. M> I share your confusion of whether you could still be a Christian and not be a fundamentalist, My sister, who is a fundalmentalist, convince me that I was not a Christian and robbed me of what faith I did have. You seem to be seeking what is meaningful and transforming. Since I left the hospittal. I have also been searching for this and still searching. For me one of the answers is to be part of a community that affirms my need to both seek answers for myself and to share in their strength of living out the values of social justice. To some extent I am finding this at Holy Trinity. Marilyn

For me the term "Progressive Christianity" goes much deeper then the term "liberal Christianity". Yes, compassion, tolerance and social justice are extremel important. However, fighting for tolerance for Gay and Lesbians or for the rights and value of people with disabilities, takes a great deal of inner strength when up against homophobia or the trend to do away with the lives of people with disabilities. Where does one get this inner strength. The literalist interpetation of the scriptures just doen't do it for me as it does forome people. I have been exploing the image of Christ as representing the Devine within all of us. The early Gnostics describe this as an eperience of intuive knowledge rather then a belief. I strengthens their life and made their lives meaningfull. I want this. I want the strengthen to speak up when I know I will be shut down. I want the strength to speak out where social justices only care about the people who control the money. I want the inner to fight for the person with a disability who is dying in hospital because they are neglected, For me Progressive Christianity is a chance to explore with others the ideas and experience of the Divine as represent the force of unity within the Whole of Creation and to discover my part within this Whole. In my Church, Holy Trinity, I feel part of a social justice congregation where members have this inner strength I am looking for. Christ in you, may s/he fill thy Spirit Marilyn

"My understanding of the divinity of Christ has been explained well by Alan Watts in MYTH & RITUAL IN CHRISTIANITY. ... We all reveal divinity to some extent. God is within us (immanent) as well as beyond us (transcendent). The trinity at its best describes this reality." This is one of the issues that draws me to the gnostics. The Gospel of Thomas says: "If you drink from my well, you will become as I am.' The Gospel of Philip makes this clearer "...You saw the Spirit, you become the spirit. You saw Christ, you bedcome Christ. You saw [the Father, you] shall become Father...you see yourself, and what you see, you shall [become]. This is one reason why the gnostics are considered heretics but this identification with the immenence of the Divine resoates with me. If wed all saw ourselves as part of the Divine we would be less cmpetitive and more conpassionate, we would take our individuality so seriously. To me this is what the Christ archetype points to.

[ L>I am not impressed with those who say suffering should be accepted, as if it were divinely ordained, as if people bring it on themselves, whether through sin or through delusions and attachments. As with so many things religious, religious people have grossly oversimplified the meaning in suffering, or lack thereof. Some people can experience some growth from some of their suffering. That doesn't explain suffering or say that excessive suffering is a good thing. M>Suffering seems to be inherent in creation. Life eats life. Creation evolves through the survival of the fittest. From the viewpoint of the individual this is horrendous and terrible. From the viewpoint of the Whole it is more acceptable. For example, I don't like it when people give me cut flowers, I hate watching them die. Hower when they die on a plant I don't mind so much because I see new flowers take their place. Suffering is less painful when you can identify with the Whole which is how I understand God. Hard times are not so bad when I am connected with other people. Marilyn

I am now studying "Beyond Belief" by Elaine Pagels, a leading gnostic scholar. I am amazed and intregues at the debates which took place in early Christianity. In Beyond Belief The Gospel of John with it emphasis on 'believing in Jesus Christ was directly written to discount the Gospel of Thomas which emphasized how each of us can experience the "Divine within': Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas says "Those who drink from my well will become as I am." The early Church Fathers were trying to figure out how to respond to the persecution of Christian. Some of the gnostics refused to be martyred. Their belief that the Divine within made Christianity andividual personal experience which could not be controlled by the Church. The Church Fathers resented the disrespect for their authority. They labelled the gnostics heretics and banned their books. This argruement continues on today. Other books, particularily the "Bible Unearthed", by Finckelstein and el, talks about how Yahweh became a masculine tribal God to distinguish the tribe from the surroumding other tribes. These tribes worshipped the goddess or both god and goddess. The early Hebrews defined Yawheh as an angry, jealous god who would not tolerate other gods and goddess. Defining God this way gave them a sense of self-righteous superiority and distinction which is carrired on even today vis a vis other religions. No wonder the gnostics rejected Yawheh. Looking back on these helps me to understand the confliocts in the Church are bo new. I do not want to get rid of the concepts of God and Christ but redefine them so that they make sense to me and my inner experience.

[ Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything. Just doesn't make any sense. M> I too have struggled with the concept of an interventionalist God. Given the suffering in the world, this has never made any sense. I do see God as Love, Compassion, Wholeness, Oneness. This does not mean that God loves me. It means for me, like the Sun is light and Heat, so God is Love and Oneness. It is up to me to be open and aware of this Love and Oneness and live with this awareness. It also means letting go of focusing on myself as an individual. I have also been impressed with Matthew Fox, especially his via negativa--his idea of acceptance of suffering has a profound influence on my life. I have experienced suffering as a process of purification and growth. Thanks for mentioning "Process Theology", I want to learn more about this. Marilyn

I have a blog but I would like to know more about how I cazn link it to the Centre for Progressive Chistianity. Could I begin a post and if I want to say more link it to mmy blog. MGF

May I reply. I spent a year in hospital for a failed hip operation. My sister, who is a fundamentalist, started to blame me for being disabled. This was the last straw. I needed something to hold on to but the only words in the Bible that made any sense to me was "My God, my God, why thou forsaken me." Yet I did find confort in chanting "Abide with me." When I got out of hospital I read the book "Stealing Jesus" (sorry I can't recall the author. The book talked about how fundamentalist, self-righteously claimed that the how destructive it is when fundamentalist claimed that the only way to be a Christian was to accept their belief and interpretation. Yet, the auther point out that being a Christian isn't about self-righteousness and judgement but about compassion. It is about living in the world with compassion and seaking jusice and invlusion rather then judgemjent. I claimed myself as a liberal Christian. I joined Ruah, a church which at that time was based on Matthew Fox. His book "Original Blessing" talks about the via Negativa, the acceptence and working with suffering. I had long asked 'If there was a God, why was there suffering.' The priest a Ruah explained how we are purified by suffering just as a fire purifies metal. I began to see my ordeal in hospital as a fire of purificatation. It certainly fooorced to redirect my life, find way of reaching out, and has led me to study progressive Chrisrian theology on my own. I am grateful to find like minded people on this message bord with whom I can share my journey Marilyn

The Bible says "By their fruits ye shall know them." For me authentic faith is faith that leads you to act compassionately for social justice I view people like Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, Jean Vanier and Ghandi as having an authentic faith. It is their faith, whether Christian our otherwise, that gves them the strength to lead exemplary lives. This is not to say that others, who are not so well known don't have authentic faith, but those who do know them can see the the fruits of their faith

This summer I been studying books by John Dominic Crossin and Elaine Pagels. The more I study, the more I am convinced that the Historical Jesus was at least a radical peasant. He defied the purity laws of his day--laws that determined who were untouchables and who were no. He instituted the common meal: unheard of in his day where all shared rich and poor, people with status and people who were untouchables sat down and shared a meal together. According to the gospel of Thomas those who were baptized were considered to be filled with the Christ, to be sons of God. Jesus was not the unique Christ but showed how all of us could find the Christ within themselves. This makes more sense to me. The writer of the Gospel of John was appauled that people could believe that they were filled with the Christ based on their personal experience. A faith based on person experience could not be organized and comtrolled. Instead, the writer of the Gospel of John made it magnatory that to be a Christian on had to believe that Jesus was uniquely the Christ. This was the beginning of dogmatism in the church. I don't know yet what role Paul played in this. I am looking forward to picking up Elaine Pagel's book on Paul from the library. I also say a book co-authored by Crossin on Paul. Aparently Paul did not know Jesus in the flesh but knew Christ in spirit. Marilyn

I think transformation comes when we let go of our suffering and turn our attention towards Christ. It like the sun may be shining but a flower does not receive the sunshine unless it turns towards it. MGF50

I do believe in intercessionary prayer but not in the sense that God will intervene. I do feel that intercessionary prayer gives me a spiritual connection to the person I am prayer about. It also gives me a sense of how to relate or respong to that person, especially when I am angry or working through conflict. Sometimes it helps me calm down and hadled the situation more graciously. Marilyn