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skyseeker

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  1. I had one good spiritual experience about 4 years ago. It was summer and I had decided to make a wandering trip through the countryside to a place (an old big railroad bridge) that I have always loved. On my way there I thought again about the theology of universalism, that in the end God saves everyone of us and that we are all very much loved by God, no matter really what we did or did not do in life, and that God would make a difference also in this world and, like spring following winter, good times would always follow the bad times again should they have befallen us. At this point I was going around a street bow and an area of trees came into sight, and the light was falling into them. It was still morning so the light was sweeter and not as brooding as around noon or as fragile as in the evening. Everything seemed fresh and I had a distinct impression of everything being flooded with wine! I had to think of Jesus much and I saw a face in my mind, that of an aged man of ancient times who was laughing at me, and when I got into my habitual doubt of non-fundamentalistic experiences, this Jesus said, no, I don't want to die again today! (I was still very caught up in fundamentalistic christianity at that point, which was giving me many issues.) The rest of the journey was very peaceful and joyous. I wandered the whole distance to the bridge, and then another distance to another town and then back with the bus from there. It was a lovely day and my sick dad greeted me at home with a big smile on his lips, happy that I had had a good day outside in the outdoors. (He was an atheist and died later that year so this partially felt like a preparation for my father's departure for me, previously I had had many worries that my dad wouldn't be allowed in Heaven because of his atheism.)
  2. Okay, this is probably a difficult matter for me to tackle, but I want to try it, if only to see how progressive christians respond to it. The issue is this, I am diagnosed with schizophrenia for about 14 years now. And for quite a length of time in it I was told by conservative christians that my medical problem has to do with demons. I cannot remember to ever have had to do with the occult, beyond listening to some gothic music when I was young, and having had some juvenile, short and, for me, rather meaningless engagement with satan when I was a youth. If I would describe it, then I have to say it's like this, sometimes in my mind I hear voices. They tell something about this or that, but usually they seem to try to change my thoughts, or maybe I can say they are like second thoughts that involuntarily contradict my own thoughts. For example, if I wanted to think, God is good, I might hear a thought in my head that says, God is shitty, or something like that. When this occurred for the first time, while i was trying to become a christian, in a conservative christian setting, I was immediately very terrified that I might become damned for such thoughts because they would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I was very unsure about what to do with this, and the following years were very hard. I had a very troubled mind, experienced hallucinations of people coming into my room and playing Jesus and chiding me. When I read the bible I heard the words repeated in an angry and raging tone which only ended when I began reading different translations like the one from german chassidic jew Martin Buber. Nowadays I have more mental sanity after a new bottom-up medicine change that my new doctor searched out for me. I am only taking as minimal dosage of neuroleptics and ironically this works much better than my previous heavy medication under which I had lot's of hallucinations and was very delusional about people frequently. But while I am emotionally better off now without the old feelings of fear, I am now anxious not to fall into the strange old conservative traps again, and following the bottom-up change of medicines I also want to renovate my beliefs from bottom-up. For example, I don't quite believe anymore that I ever had demons or that such beings actually exist, I think it is more sensible to assume that I was simply sick. Also, there are many many people on this world, the majority of us in fact, who never have issues with demons or devils while conservative christians insist that the devil is a persistent and world-encompassing problem. One solution that I found was that the devil, in a reading of the bible, is just a synonym for true evil in general. He doesn't really exist, much like evil and sin don't have a genuine existence like matter and life. But in other ways, evil does exist, and very much so, because many people suffer from evil things in the world. But, and this is another explanation that I found, much of the problem of good and evil has to do with our skewed perception about these things. Remember the story of paradise and the tree? We were allowed to eat from every tree, the tree of beauty, of humour, of wisdom, of fun, of love, of longing, of art, of science, of stories, of politics, of war even, they were all okay for us. But we were not supposed to "base our knowledge" on the good and evil dualism. Because, whenever we find something good, our minds are now bent to fear an evil that might destroy the good, or whenever we find something evil, our minds are bent to seek to destroy it or fear its destructive powers. The knowledge of good and evil does not lead us to fight the evil with the good, it leads us to be perceptively caught up in morality systems instead of being safe and sound in ethical and philosophical systems. For example, I think it is wiser to combat what we call evil by using the powers of truth and wisdom and love, instead of simply sacrificing another good thing to it. A good iteration of this is how Jesus saw love of the enemy. Normally the enemy is the evil person for us, and it is good to fight him with all your power until you have won out over him. But the wise person turns the enemy into a friend so that there would not be a lifelong struggle with all the hate, envy and revenge such struggles have inherent to them. This is the kind of thing I'm thinking of now. Demons and devils really have no place in them, except in an explanation of how we can be misled much by living in a fantasy world of good and evil where there also agents of the devil. In fact, living in a struggle of good against evil under religious terms actually invites images of demons and devils for the mentally sensitive and fragile.
  3. Beautiful topic. I find it interesting to note that while energy is not getting lost, the patterns in an energy field can change from one to another so completely that there is no identity anymore. That is where I think mysticism must latch on, the problem of identity and death. Does death free us from our identity while mystically we can retain it so to know such a change? On my desk I have a photo of my dad who died 4 years ago. Sometimes when I am close to God and open to love, it's like I can see him smile in the photo in a certain light. Yes, this life here certainly includes much suffering for many. I have been spared physical pains so far, but I know a bit about mental pain from my schizophrenia. Sometimes pain is passing, but when it stays it can be an agony to live with. It's like being bed-ridden, it's like you always dream of going outside into nature and sunlight but you just can't go into the world anymore and have to live in the dark. It can be difficult sometimes.
  4. I've thought much about this topic. It seems to me that people either buy into a Lord God (who appears more like an alpha male being than a divine majesty), or they disbelieve in a personal God. Simply believing in a good God seems hard for many although in their private life they should recognize that we all depend on a God who feels genuine goodness for all of His creations. Personally I choose to have some panentheistic beliefs in this matter, that God literally inhabits the world and that there are metaphysical constraints to His activity. That God is partially identical or perhaps I should call it related to the Cosmos and that there are also indifferent sides to Him. I don't mean cold sides, but He allows creation to go its ways without stopping it before things get nasty. I mean, perhaps God is closer to sheeps and lions than to us in some ways, and we're simply a special project that has to find a small place in the creation and not such a huge and overtowering one as we tend to presume. We should be clearer about our place in this world and how a better perception of God's impartial grace would be better for us than the inconsistent beliefs in an almighty God with many plans and purposes, a God who perhaps could be called too concerned with the world. And that these things are shrouded in mysteries that must be accessed mystically rather than only through plain reason. A God of love more than a God of perfectly meted out justice. The doomsayers and those who have harmful beliefs about God, and those who want God to create a wonderland from us, maybe all suffer from the same mistake of assuming that we are so important or that God has some grand plan for literally and truly everything. God is the spirit, the ancient word for spirit is breath, and the wind blows where it's blowing and we can't catch it. We're invited into the divine, God recognizes us, but the same counts for lions and mosquitos and tigers. Only it wouldn't be fair to them if mankind alone would get the price and rule truly everything. That would be too much of a humanization of the universe, and as our own history and our present behavior is proving far too succinctly, we are not angels and wouldn't be able to fulfill such a job. So go out more into nature and live more in tune with the Cosmos instead of worrying too much about the human race. We can and should believe in a loving God, but God's love often consists more of a sunset than of these manifold direct assistances and interventions in life that christianity believes in so strongly. There are always things that we as humans must look after, and we must learn from Jesus in this matter. God is with us like he is with the cow on the fields, but we must have these helping hands that reach out for our neighbor to pull him from misery. If a chimp were to recognize God, he would do this.
  5. Hello, I've written on this forum sometimes and now I wanted to ask where can I find a mentor or maybe a study group of progressive christianity online. I live in a remote town in east germany's ore mountains and don't get around much. This is a bit like Germany's version of the bible belt, so christianity here is rather conservative. For example, just some weeks ago a caretaker of my living community told me that my atheistic dad who died 4 years ago couldn't possibly have ended up with God, and would be separated from him now, and that if I wanted to live with God I'd have to let go of my dad. I cannot live in such a kind of christianity so I am seeking something else, and I suppose that if I lived in a city in Germany I could find it, but as I said, I'm in a remote place and can't easily move away from it in this time and so I'm seeking something online instead. Does anyone of you have an idea where I could go and get some spiritual help? I'm really wounded in the faith department from years in conservative christianity. I have schizophrenia and was told I have demons, I had transsexuality and bisexuality issues that I couldn't work through in the context of conservative christianity, would like to have a girlfriend without immediately having to marry her, would enjoy a liberal and progressive theology that nevertheless doesn't sound too esoteric and so on. I've read some books in the area, for example Bonhoeffer and Komensky, I'm high-school educated with some university, I've read a lot of other christian literature and in the past I spent much time on various internet forums. But it seems hard to find christian progressives anywhere, at least not the sort of progressives that would really and honestly disbelieve in an angry and punishing and fighting god and I was hoping you have an idea for where I could go for some brotherly help. Thank you and God bless you. Daniel
  6. I'm not sure what the problem should be with the Trinity. Jesus certainly identified Himself as the Son of God, and He was more than your average human Joe - although he often decided to appear like the average human Joe. Walked on water, raised the dead, increased the bread and fishes, etc. I just don't understand what problem one might have with concepts like the Trinity. Three persons making up one being, like twins in a way, triplets, I mean. Don't look for symmetry, look for truth, symmetry makes you numb and crazy to spiritual things.
  7. Hi Norm, please forgive me but I have an issue with this as well, that I would like to talk about addressing some of your points here. The thing is, wouldn't it be good if we had more Sabbaths, and festivals, and even some dietary "advices"? I don't mean this as in Moses' law with all the punishments and such, with the absolute strictness and all. I mean this as in, have more holidays to spend with God in nature, have more festivals to celebrate love and grace, don't eat all this consumer stuff we're given and live more frugally and enjoy more simple foods like vegetables, as opposed to all the carbs, meats and candies. Obviously God doesn't care about these things morally so that someone would find judgment or condemnation if he would eat a food I don't recommend. About James, he did speak about the law of liberty and didn't mean Moses' law. But this was new to him and in his jewish mind a deed was not some kind of ethically good action but instead a work as prescribed by the law by which he'd gain God's favor or at least avoid punishment. For most modern minds this is hard to understand, but the observant and humble jew really lived in a world where God would reward him for observing the law or punish him for breaking it. But Jesus followed a different way, He highlighted a relaxed dealing with the law based on honoring the good in it and not caring about the bad in it, declaring the son of man as lord over such laws, while God is the Lord over the son of man (see the many sabbath controversies in the Gospels). This was something James probably didn't fully grasp yet, but nonetheless I imagine him as similar to those humble and meek and kind observant jews of today, somewhat lost in this world, longing for fatherly kindness to come to them from God, and so on. There are many people like this, much like there are many people who love regulations and rules and such. This is just two types of people that need to get along, so that the free don't abuse their freedom and that the servants don't act hypocritically or as if they would take away the freedom of the free. This is not just a theological problem as there are again and again people trying to live by rules and other people who try to live by reason, or might I say different rules because eventually reason also only discovers rules, logic, sense, meaning, virtue, justice. For example, I don't consider myself a follower of Law. In fact I oppose such thinking. But in the same time I've become persuaded by my own difficult life that free love and free sex are not as good as the secular world sometimes makes it out to be. I'm getting along in years and I will never be able to sleep with all these super-beautiful girls that advertise themselves so freely on sites like hi5. I've joined other dating sites and found some connections but they required me to have money and everything to satisfy women that in fact want the cake and eat it too, lust and sex and money and kindness, etc. So I don't want to be the servant of lust anymore and rather earnestly seek a relationship and when it comes to dating, anything that moves past kissing and hugging is a nono for me. This is what I think is growing into the law of freedom, not that I would be punished by God if I had sex with someone tomorrow, but that I might sacrifice love for lust if I did so. I am free to sleep with someone and God is with me and I am inspired by Him to treat kindly and respectfully with people. But in the same time my reason tells me that I'm not safe in pursuing sex over love because then I end up a nervous wreck, unloved, abused and mistreated as I can't see through all of people's deceit. That is what I think also was clear to Paul and so while he left behind the law of Moses, he instructs us to marry and not practice fornication and lasciviousness (with fornication I mean loose sex that is not based on love, marriage back then in Paul's understanding meant two people deciding to live with each other and to provide for each other and to love each other). If I could meet someone who could show me how to mix the free love type of thing with ACTUAL love then I'd be happy to listen, but so far I don't know if this is even possible to achieve. Everything that is too loose eventually becomes a following of flesh in the form of lust diving or it becomes unloving so that actual romance isn't there anymore. That's why I think I am kind of in the middle between the two types of people I mentioned, the full-blown rules lovers and the full-blown freedom lovers. I think we might be better advised seeking reason and wisdom in such matters.
  8. "They search the scriptures daily for in them they think they have eternal life, but it is those scriptures that testify to Me." (John 5:39) That is a wonderful and very helpful line of scripture, but in this there is already hidden the problem of using Christ to double phariseeism only. We can assume that Christ came to crush the letter and to bring life, but the bible can be read such as to support a Christ who just fulfilled the bible bringing new chapters to it. I think we should see a "gone" in the christian things, that Jesus spiritually put an end to an old system and to bring a purity of life and existence as in bread and wine. Christianity's worst mistake would be to bury this purity and instead to use it to fit into the old system. This is why I'm opposed to seeing Jesus as the lamb of God. He laid down his own life, he was not sacrificed. Jesus as God's lamb is like a perversion, it puts Jesus back into the mosaic thing, back into the corrupted and ungodly horror of Abraham wanting to sacrifice Isaac. That's a real issue, friend. Jesus' death, instead, must be seen as a trick God played on Jesus' opponents, and as a means by which the bottom of religion, which is hell, is closed down. No more condemnation and wrath - Jesus took it all upon Himself. But this must be coupled with a manly Jesus who Himself decided to go to that Cross, together with His Father God and with the Holy Spirit. He was not put on that Cross by God. That would be a wrong point of view perverting the idea of love and freedom.
  9. Since somet time I'm trying to read the bible without applying the concept of biblical inerrancy. But I must admit I'm getting a bit lost. I have no education on how to read the bible like this and I don't have reference points for myself. Some things I came up with where these points: - When Jesus and his disciples argue against the law of Moses, they don't consider this law to really originate from God. It was merely a jewish tradition on how someone can be justified before God. Jesus sort of obeyed the law in many ways because else nobody would have accepted him among the jews and he would not have been considered a teacher in the eyes of the public, but he was big on choosing only the good from the law (charity), and not its bad parts (stoning). If one wanted to accept the law as divine, then Jesus would have had no authority to break the sabbath, for example. But he broke it and he purposely called himself the son of man to make himself like man, to show not his divine authority but the authority of man. - Tied to this is the question of Jesus' sinlessness, his understanding of sin. If we just adopted the point of view of the law, then Jesus was not sinless as he broke the sabbath, didn't obey the high priest, didn't stone the adulterous woman and didn't seem to offer sacrifices. But when we adopt a law-free view of God and the faith, then Jesus was sinless in terms of simple goodness. His heart was on the right spot, he was kind and helpful to the needy, spoke truth to power and offered himself on the cross as a symbol of his unselfishness. When that is sinlessness, then the law has no point really and produces only a "righteousness" of judgment, not of faith and love. - The parable of the talents can be read not as something about God but as something about the situation on Earth, that Jesus was using irony really. Those who are rich on Earth always get more riches, and those who have only little, get taken away what little they have because they can only hide it in terror of the masters, and using it for themselves they may also not do, they are supposed to put it in the bank for bad times. It makes no sense in light of Jesus' sacrifice to assume that he has servants who cut to pieces those who hate him (again, the cross, father forgive them for they know not what they are doing). These are just some things I found. Biblical inerrancy can't lead to such insights and instead presumes that the bible is a manual that shows everything plainly. But this is wrong, the bible is a book like all the others, containing prophecy, law, stories, myths, regulations, chronicles, psalms, poetry, wisdom literature and others.
  10. Apostle James in his letter mentions a law of liberty. (James 1) What do you think is this law exactly? I think the bible purposely differentiates it from the law of Moses, so this isn't it, but I don't hear about a law of freedom elsewhere in the bible, at least not in my knowledge. What do you think?
  11. Do you subscribe to biblical consistency and truthfulness or do you think it has been tampered with? The way I see it, the New Testament inductions of the law's outdatedness seem to demand that the Law itself was not in the will of God ever, ie that the early Israelites must have thought wrongly about God and may have manipulated the writings to gain credence. But I'm not sure how far this applies to the prophets. But also the NT seems tampered with, take for example the parable of the servants and the talents. I am pretty sure it refers to the economic situation on the world, that only those who use their money to increase it, are rewarded by the prince of the world. But the bible makes it seem as if Jesus is the harsh Lord who hadn't sown what he is reaping, yet this is completely out of touch with the doctrine of thankfulness after which we all owe everything to God. What do you think?
  12. I dislike Calvinism as much as you. It presupposes a sovereignity of God that would be behind all the scary predestination and hellfire theologies. Also, I think their bible reliance is their main problem, if you remove the totality of their scripture interpretation then you can get free of their crap...
  13. On the weekend I had the idea of writing another Genesis account that might be more passable than the bible's Genesis. Here's what I came up with, please tell me what you think of it. It's the first chapter only, if you like it I can post the other chapters. Chapter A - The Creation of life and the days were long the heavens were lonely god was alone in a shell of god and sky and she knew, she knew she knew, and she knew and she knew what was to be known she said, I know and I have to know and I will know and that was all what was known she said, I will feel pain she said, pain is like a sun she said, I will shine she said, light is like knowing and so the darkness passed and she knew, she knew and she knew.. the light smiled she knew, light is always smiling and she smiled, because she knew she knew it well nobody noticed anything they were all asleep like the future, like the past only she knew she was there she never slept, she always knew... but the earth dreamt and she knew her dream the little daughter dreamt much she always knew, the light smiled everyday she had been born like a dream she smiled in the dream and she had known how the light came smiling at god in her shell, and at the earth she breathed out, the daughter breathed in and they breathed together, and they knew... and she knew about feelings how the light needed a daughter too or it would not smile everyday like it should so she smiled like light and stood on the earth and she was light, and that was the water the earth knew something, and took the water they all knew, and she knew best the darkness looked and hid at the bottom of the water and sat herself beyond the earth where the light played alone, to travel the spaces that god had known alone to know more... the earth knew the light was shining it fell on sands and rocks fell on water, to gather god's smile and carry it around and god, she knew a need the earth had breath and she put the water in the breath the light went away to think the sun knew not what was happening but the earth knew, because it was remembering every breath always to breathe more, with god and the water fell from the breath the earth knew, and knew and drank, and spilled her breath there were seas and rivers now and everything knew about god and how lonely she was no more but she had to blink, and the angels woke up and saw a tear on her face she whispered, I have come they knew something she had been there... and the rivers ran away, and the breath ran away and the light stood still, while the earth dreamt something until it can smile, until it can smile again and the water flew, it flew without end she blinked again and the earth shook once, twice, many times and the rocks broke and fell into the water and the breath drummed onto the water and the rocks fell on other rocks there were clouds of dust she knew something else and sent the light into the spaces beyond where other light was dwelling and searching water, and searching the breaths full of water for the wonder that only god knew the angels whispered, she had come again because light came from the spaces led by the light of the sun and the angels of the earth and of the heavens knew more they knew about stars... and they climbed down to earth, and looked in the winds they climbed down, breathing with earth and god collecting water and dust and little stones and sand and she sighed, and she knew, that is my sigh "my chest is heaving, she said, my chest is heaving and i know", and god had always known and the angels looked up and saw a little boy it had hid somewhere in a cloud and they counted the stars in the skies, the stars next to the little boy and they saw the little boy was beautiful and the angels knew something, they needed to dance and the earth breathed with them, and god breathed and when they danced, the earth broke up the angels whispered, and were afraid, and fled but some were slain by the breaking earth out of which red light broke, and red warmth and the angels cried, this is like god she is smiling more, she is smiling more and god knew, and she carried all angels to heaven... and the souls of the slain angels went with them their bodies slipping into the earth with some red light and warmth, with some dust, with some water god said to her angels, give them dreams give them dreams without measure, give them all the dreams we have and also the light smiled, because this was other water and the breath smiled, because that was other gods to breathe with and the earth smiled, because that was another child and god said, i know this is life... and the little life felt all the dreams, all the god and all the angels and all the earth and all the water in it wanted to go to the light, the first dream (and she smiled much) and all the breath in it wanted to go through all the earth, the second dream (and she smiled much) and all the darkness in it wanted to move through all space, the third dream (and she smiled a little) and the little life knew something, it had been dreaming and it woke up, and it was there... and god said, i will make it like myself and like the angels and i will give the angels of myself, and the angels never laughed so much again when they came, the other angels smaller, and kinder, and a bit red like the light and heat of the earth not willing to dance until they had known but watching the dance of the angels, because they knew something and in that laughter, the angels found whispers, and they wanted to be alone and the other angels danced, and god smiled and she breathed on them all, and the water in them smiled (because god's breath is like light, and the water in us is in every breath) and they climbed down to earth, and looked and the little boy fell over, and fell over, and fell over and the seas laughed and wept and fell anywhere the breath and the water smiled and danced the flooding dance and the other angels carried the little life and heard the song of the first angels in heaven so they dropped it everywhere and god had always known, she had known and she had known... and the little life was happy in all over the wet earth and it floated in the water, at its surface where the light smiled on it as on the water where the breaths of earth and god found it every morning...
  14. Hi there, do you believe that the OT law was really given by God? I find that it can hardly be reconciled to a God of love and mercy. I've come to the view that most of it was an invention of the jews by which they wanted to better their society and build a system by which they could stand before God. Some things must have happened in Egypt and Sinai that scared the jews, they probably had locutions and visions and other spiritual experiences that frightened them, and being somewhat harsh and tough in nature they wanted laws and customs that would guarantee a disciplined and devout society. I don't want to be make this an antisemitic post, I guess most other peoples were equally harsh in their religious doctrines in that time. To sum things up, I think that God really wrote the 10 commandments for us, they are not harsh and not trying to threaten anyone, there are no threats attached to them unlike to the commandments written down in the mosaic code of laws that was meant to supplement the 10 commandments. In effect the mosaic code is just like those rabbinical rules and regulations meant to protect the mosaic code to be broken. The rabbinical laws protect the mosaic code, and the mosaic code protects the 10 commandments. Jesus seemed to enjoy picking and choosing what from the law is good and what not. He himself saw it fit to remain under the law, but after fulfilling it and leading it ad absurdum on the cross, the code is now shown to be improper and invalid as well. Just be honest and good in life and you're fine when it comes to God's commandments. This is the view that I've come to. What do you think? Also in regards to the other history accounts in the OT... do you see them as true, valid, binding?
  15. Hello Matteo, yes, it makes much sense to believe in a big and loving God who would reconcile everyone to Himself. But this obviously depends on faith and it's not always easy to have faith. For example, I live in a group home and there are struggles here about basic things like the cream for coffee. And this is Germany, not some third world place. I would welcome God warmly if He were to come back to this world and reconcile it wholly to Himself, but sometimes it's not looking like it. Which is, I think, a motivator for people not to believe in universalism, because we never had an universalistic embrace of all mankind by God. It seems more probable that God is peeved with us, at least as long as God is like us though of course He isn't. I have had my small encounters with God where He would show me love in small ways so that I'd feel mentally refreshed or that a kindness happened to me or something like that. But this is hard to analyze logically ... did something I do warrant such kindness (lordship salvation), was it all unmerited love (free grace), was it mere chance and God was not even involved (deism) or did I conquer for myself a share of goodness (selfish atheism)? I regularly osscilate between believing all of these, and none of them. I never want to be cynical but sometimes life ain't so easy, especially in the psychological experience of it in certain times when you're not strong. That's why I still think there is some malevolent entity around that causes damage, and while God often repairs the damage with us (or sometimes without us), the damage gets done at first. It's like in world war 2, first the war and all its atrocities happened, then Hitler was defeated and we enjoyed some peace again. I never want to blame God for history, but the story of man is not always a nice story. And that is exactly why we have a need for Universalism, only it should be better equipped and have more evidence to itself, so it's not just a theology but an actual power in the world that is to be reckoned with by the "forces of evil", ha. In my country actually many private people have universalistic notions in this way or the other. Everyone takes it for granted when they speak of human rights and such, really. And even atheists often believe in some kind of principle or love or benevolent factor in the cosmos that looks kindly at them. I guess in modernity the difference between atheism and theism is that theists believe there is a person in this benevolence that we're after, while atheists treat it as something impersonal. At least as long as we're having a spiritual mindset and actually embrace things like virtue or goodness. But many people do that in their conscience, also in my group home and everywhere else. Which also shows a need for people to stand up against the evil of evil beings like the devil or other evil factors in life. At least that's how it looks like here. Greetings, Daniel
  16. Thank you for your kind replies, Joseph, Derek and Paul. I'm glad I wrote here and got some answers. Have any of the fathers really advocated Universalism? I'd love universalism to be true, but I just don't know. For example, muslim fundamentalism is just as bad as christian fundamentalism. Or hindu fundamentalism. Or pagan fundamentalism. And what exactly is deconstruction? Is this the stuff Degeuze wrote about? Taking things apart when they don't fit? Thank you again for your kind replies. Daniel
  17. Hello there, I hope I am not a bother but I am having a hard time with my christianity. It's not so much to do with the church but with the actual tenets of christianity. I think I must add that I suffer from schizophrenia, and in the past evangelical christians tried to tell me that it was caused by demons. I am still unsure about this, though my doctor says that all my symptoms are like textbook examples of schizophrenia. I get strong medicine against the illness since recently, and although many symptoms vanished I am not very happy. I live in a group home now which is fine so far because I can pursue my hobbies and enjoy the other people and in the future when I am better able again to handle life I can move out and live on my own again. Though I wouldn't even mind staying here because I'm not lonely here and can partake in some activities and have good quality social contact. Spiritually speaking, my problem is that my faith is rather reactive than active. I am in this religion because I am afraid of God and of death, not really because I want to be in it. It is all so confusing and consuming for me. I had been told by other christians to fully pursue Christ lest something bad would happen to me and that I would have a firm solace against death and illness. But the teachings of the bible are so harsh at many places. I have tried to read up on human-friendly theologies like those of Universal Reconciliation, and I also read up a bit on liberal christianity, but I can't get the harshness out of me. And as a result I am often anxious, sometimes outright panicking in the evening, and because I am so anxious, I am sometimes becoming harsh to other people myself, only in my mind so far, but still, it's frightening for me. My dad died three years ago and I had serious problems feeling anything. I'm not sure if this is the illness or my own sinfulness, but it's a big problem. I used to keep myself diligent by giving myself up to the fear of God, but that strikes me as so unhealthy now. What exactly does Jesus mean when He says things like that we have to deny ourselves and all that? If I don't pursue my hobbies I'd die from boredom here. And although I try to practice kindness with the others here, I am often on my edge because of all the inward turmoil in me. I don't hear voices most of the time anymore, but I have strong thought disturbances. For example, I want to think of something and just can't do it, I mean, for example, I can't think of my mother and see here face before me, it's all a distorted mess. I can only rarely imagine something correctly now, and I don't know if it's because of the illness or because of the strong medicine I must take (Haloperidol). I used to dialogue with an american charismatic who told me I needed to embrace Jesus so that I would have a help against my illness, and if I wouldn't embrace Jesus things would become bad for me in a short time. I had a friend in my city who was a christian too, I met him at the hospital and he was pretty much the kindest man that I know. He gave me another idea of Christ, that of Him being a friend throughout life who may not heal me from everything but whom I'd never have to fear and who would welcome me in the afterlife along with everyone else that I love, ie my dad, an uncle that I had, my mother's other brother that she loves very much, my first love... These are beautiful beliefs for me but I don't know how to reconcile them with the judgment verses in the bible. Since I talked with these evangelicals I've succumbed frequently to adoping their view that the world is terrible and only getting worse. I don't want to see anyone as my enemy so I avoid reading davidic Psalms and other parts of the bible that I don't like. But I have the nagging suspicion that these hard parts are true and that God is a harsh master whom I normally couldn't trust if he came to me in reality. I have tried to believe that the Old Testament doesn't exhibit the true spirit of God most of the time, even in the places where the book records God's own words, but the New Testament writers frequently quote from the Old Testament and seemed to believe in many of its messages. St. Paul who at some places writes really beautifully, at other places writes harshly and aggressively, and, as it appears to me, high-mindedly and self-centeredly. The compromise that I am trying to explore now would be the idea that the bible writers used another language and had a whole other mindset than most of us moderns have, and that I am allowed and maybe even encouraged by God not to adopt the ancient mindset even when it was very devout often. After all the ancient times were times of fervent religiousness, and I don't just mean christian religiousness, and it took centuries for people to wake up from this nightmare. But then again if I don't accept the bible, then I have problems finding a secure foundation for my own faith and knowledge. My gut instinct tells me that zeal and devoutness are not good things and that life proves that people can be good men even when they are not very devout, or not devout or pious at all. But what haunts me is what I'd call my evangelical period which was from 2006-2010. I just can't forget the things that I "learned" in this time, even when I read my german bible I get flashbacks of thee and thou language spoken in this ridiculous dramatic style. And even right now I am afraid that I have sinned when saying this and that God would punish me for this. After all the bible says God struck Zacharias mute just because of some unbelief that he had. Or was this more to make him believe? Before I became a christian I had some thoughts about Christ too. I was not fond of some of christianity, but I did have respect for God and sometimes thought of God, the afterlife, Jesus, angels, etc. I didn't like blasphemies, enjoyed the church's desire for social justice like Martin Luther King stood for, and so on. But now I am not at peace anymore, and constantly check myself and sometimes I don't know anymore if the religion is troubling me or just my illness. My mother, a kind and simple christian old lady tells me it's all my illness and that i don't have to be afraid of God. And a few times I have felt joy in God for example when I was camping in the mountains with a very laid back church group I had found in 2009. But now I can't go to that church group anymore because they are in another city and I don't have the money to use the bus to go to them. My group home is led by the christian deaconry and I can't say anything against the people here, they are pretty nice and so on. The struggle is two.fold, on the one hand I have doubts that God is not good and that the bible cannot be trusted, which is enough difficulty for me as it is. But then I have my struggles with the schizo and I don't know if it's just illness or actual demonic assaults as the evangelicals made me believe. (I even had an exorcism done by an evangelical lady I had seen on TV and it didn't make things better too, I remember shivering in fear as she did her stuff to me, over the phone.) So I'd like to look into progressive christianity and what it can give me to replace my evangelical "introduction" into christianity. I'm grateful for any book you can recommend to me. I'm not so deep into the Spong business but maybe there are other books which can help me more get into the love of God and find peace for my life. Greetings from Germany, Daniel
  18. Hi Paul, well I might be an odd nut in this forum because of this, but I don't think the bible is ONLY a reflection of human thought. Instead I believe that it contains reports of things that have really happened, ie Jesus rising from the dead, Him walking on water, increasing the bread that he gave the people, and so on. The reflection of human thought is mostly in how people were afraid of God and ascribed evil to Him, or at least the notion that God isn't knowing human goodness and always does His own thing and doesn't quite listen to us, that THIS is God's sovereignity. But the odd thing is, this can be proven directly FROM the bible, this is the Holy aspect of this book, why it's special to me. I don't see it as inerrant, but as true, if that makes any sense. In the context of Noah's story, for example, I see that it was exaggerated. There was no global flood. But there was probably a disastrous flood in the middle east, or in the black sea area, as modern research proposes. The thing is, however, that almost all people all around the globe at that time wrote mythologies and legendary accounts about a great flood. I think this has to do with a sort of spirit flood that reached people at the time, that the seers and shamans and such all received odd dreams in their respective religions, and that life was difficult and under peril in this time. And God caused this in order to separate people from their old way of life and then to introduce the concepts of justice and law, which marked a big developmental step for mankind. This is the significance of Noah viewed from a historical perspective. But it also has meaning in our day. In our modern times we should see the whole world as our Ark, and need to steer it safely through the troubled waters of our current problems and things by which we're endangered. And our animal and plant life on the Earth suffers too and needs our care and attention. Thanks, Daniel
  19. Today I've wanted to post some thoughts about the bible, its historical account and how we can interpret it. My main idea would be that the book of Genesis has a literal meaning that evokes a profound but ultimately unfactual image of history as it really happened. My thought is, the story of Paradise might refer to a time when mankind, a highly evolved primate, discovered the spoken word as a means of communication. With that spoken word, mankind also developed a more tangible sense of God, although this God can also be seen as an inner witness of conscience. With finding the word, mankind went into Paradise, and in that Paradise mankind found its home - they understood they belonged there, especially now that they had found the word. I must add that I am a believing christian, ie for me God really exists, and I'm trinitarian, ie God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm orthodox in many things of the faith. But it really makes more sense to me to think of our history and about the bible in an anthropological way that also notes modern science and what it says. Something similar as in Genesis happened in the account of Noah. I think it's about a time when mankind was approaching a new era where the idea of justice would come up, the idea of laws and courts of justice and all that. I think maybe factually this is about a priest in Mesopotamia, maybe even the priestking of a city. And he had such a clear conscience that he had some ancient concept of "human rights", and also "divine rights", and preached about them. And they didn't listen, Noah had a dream about a devastating flood, the flood (a local one) occured and he was able to save himself, his family, and some animals, and many of the people that hadn't listened or even maybe fought his preachings, died in the flood. And again, the God comes in that I really believe in, and this God let many things like this Noah's Flood happen all around the globe, and this ushered in an era of thinking about justice not just in Mesopotamia alone but pretty much everywhere where men lived. Maybe one could say it was a spirit flood - something that came to our dreams, to the visions of the seers and shamans, even in pagan religions. At that point I also see a connection of christian belief and the universal notion of God, in the story of Noah. The bible says one of the things God said to Noah, about human life and that He would punish it with taking the lives of those who have taken a human life. This is really describing also a consciousness that all of us possess - the vast majority of us has a dire and strict conscience about murder being totally wrong. It's like God is speaking that to all of us still, in every culture all around the globe. It's like the Arche Noah story has been shaken into us by our misfortunes in life and the tragedies we hear about, especially by earthquakes and famines and floods and all that. And we ALL help building our fleet of arks. The most interesting for me here is the difference that I sometimes perceive from the way God expressed Himself to the jews, and how He might express and has expressed Himself to other people than the jews and later the christians. For example, Islam, when it's enlightened and reasonable, has something Noahidic to itself too. Zoroastrianism, even some parts of paganism are somewhat Noahidic, Manitou in North America, for example, or Quetzalcoatl in South America. It's like God send a Noah to every people and religion and culture, and implemented the conscientous fear and honor that said, "Do not kill!", and brought the rainbow with Him that said, "I won't destroy this world, see?", and "you can eat everything, even animals". The Jesus element would be to enrich what has been given to all of us, with a greater sensibility for what else is in God's and in our human interest, and not to call this interest but our spiritual direction. There is a hell that awaits us if we don't do like Jesus said, ie cling to what saves us, this world is not undangerous. For an atheist that might be biology and diving into ethical thinking. For a muslim that might be following a benevolent idea of Allah. And again, I am a believing christian who also maintains that the real Jesus still wants us very much to believe in Him, and that not reluctantly but also forwardly, sometimes demandingly. I see God in Jesus and keep Him as my Savior. So I don't want to dissolve church and New Testament with these things. And in that I see a particular beauty. Something's coming together here, our human purpose, our experiences, our science and culture and philosophy and art, and then Jesus Christ, our Messiah. And the history of the jews too that also had its deep significance. Any thoughts?
  20. The way I see it, the spiritual is about principle. This connects the religious understanding of spirit in christianity (where Jesus, or the Logos is sought), and the more unreligious understanding of spirit (where also Logos is sought, but more like the greeks saw it, a tradition that didn't enjoy the "gods" very much except in theater). Spirit is sometimes seen as this principle, but also as an equivalent to our souls. That's how we get this funny feeling when we see a leaf, as you put it. I call it "feelings of the mind", small, sparkling and dazzling things. My own best approximation is that spirit is the marrow of our souls. And Jesus is someone who is so faithful to this marrow of our souls, always, also in Heaven, that He is the incarnation of this marrow, in the container of pure love that is His Father. Understood unreligiously, you can still stick with a spiritual life - following wherever your spirit leads you in an ethically proper way. That would be liberal christianity as many understand it. I just think that eventually all these philosophies, applied to your personal life, will make room in you for theology again, and then your life is enveloped in God in time, and you find faith again.
  21. God said, don't have them before me, He didn't say don't have them at all. We can look and learn from them, but then we turn to God (being and love), and keep that central and above. We don't put Krishna (black) or Buddha (enlightenment) or Allah (the God) central, but that which God wants, most of all, and in the christian interpretation that means love. And love seeks to enrich the others, and God and Christ are our riches, not our shame, so we can give it, but we can also give our love, and actually God and Christ also do something on their own, which is precisely loving and enriching others, we're supposed to be good examples of what God and Christ made out of us through their love and enrichment and participation in our life. And, also, in a way the God that we worship can be seen as an inferior God too, just like Krishna or Buddha or Allah, at least in the way He acted in the Old Testament which was expressing love rather strangely. In Jesus, I think we find both tolerance and the possibility to accept Jesus as God, because we're allowed to see love as the service to God and the means by which to stay in Him. I have to add I don't actually believe that God is inferior, but the way to make Him truly superior is through Jesus and then love, in the faith that Jesus does this loving with me. That means allowing conversion and keeping that in mind, but it also means the tolerance of praying for others and yet saying to them, "Go in peace", if they want to go and not stay with you. But that must happen in the context of normal life, not as if we treat all of this as so terribly important for saving souls from hell. God loves all, we can't call other people fools, either by our thoughts, words or behaviors, because that brings the hellfire to us, like Jesus Himself told us.
  22. God is a lot like the three heroes from Oz. The Father is like the scarecrow needing a brain, Jesus is like the iron Woodcutter needing a heart. And the Holy Spirit is like the lion needing courage. They are all wonderful, and once when they were alone in all the glory they shared, they created a fabulous world. But with the arrival of humans, things changed. The Father lost his brain and threw them out of the garden. Jesus lost his heart and cut down the tree that we liked so much. The Holy Spirit had no courage to come to us so the world couldn't know Him anymore. But then Elly came, the bride of the lamb. And God raised the jews to have a country, and found his brain. This saw that Jesus had no heart and that he had to come to us for good rather than to write prophetic love poetry only. And the lion licked up the tasty experience of the wizard that is human longing, and found the courage that he needed to come to us. And Caleb, God's Toto, is still around and the reason why the Godhead as the One God, did all this, because he had to keep living, God had promised that. And Moses the wizard was sinful like the others, but he wrote down the good book and so Oz came into existence after all. And then the wind appeared and we didn't know where he came from and we realized we were supposed to laugh a little today and forget our anxieties.
  23. I wanted to submit the idea that the biblical story of Paradise might be a hint about our own evolutionary problem of having left a special love reality that we lived in and that once protected us from many evils that we still experience today. For example, mental illness. I suffer from schizophrenia, and despite what medicine would suggest, I think of my suffering of being influenced by the human coldness and awkwardness of our time. Let me explain. We humans are an evolved form of monkeys. If you look at videos of monkeys together, they practice a developed form of social living. The mothers sit with their young and scratch them, they run after each other like children playing catching. Cats lick their children. We humans are more evolved than these monkeys, but majorly see this superiority in our intellect and in the products of our human life like houses and such. But in fact, and I want to say that this is spiritual more than intellectual, we do not quite have a more developed form of social living together than monkeys. It looks different because of our clothes and music and work schedules, but principally it is the same as what the monkeys had. And while animals can rest in their being and don't have to improve or suffice someone's higher standard, as a christian I don't see humans as merely animals and I posit that being a human means to evolve and develop in our lives, both individually and as a species. Our highest value as humans is noble love. At least it is the highest value in the christian ethics, although I think many other religions see it the same way, and many atheists too, and many of them surpass christians in love or are more honest about it. Let me go on an imaginative tangent of how I wish my own reality to be a better love reality. I live in a group home, and my caretaker often coldly tells me that I don't suffice her standards. Where is the small friendly gesture of saying, dear Daniel, I love you, I just have something here we need to check? Instead she just says, Mr Neubacher, I do not find it good that you don't do x,y,z so well. Sometimes I am angsty and cold, and in a monkey society maybe my ladyfriend Marion here would in fact say, come into my bed, I will hold you close and you know I have humour, you will soon laugh again (nothing sexual implied). Or my friend Jens when he visits me would bring me an apple or an odd flower he saw on his way to me through the jungle, and not just want to talk computer games and his suspicions of me being very sick mentally and needing to work more or something. There is an old guy here that sleeps at day and is awake at night, if I were better in producing a love reality I might take two weeks and brew a good beer for him and he'd exclaim, that's fantastic and warm up to me more. Wolfgang who lives here would see my sadness and give me a cookie that he had saved in the morning when he felt it could be better to save cookies than to eat them all on his own. Granted, this still somehow works in our lives. We do acts of kindness and works of goodness. But it is usually not our everyday life. And I wanted to posit that this was our Paradise, evolutionary and historically speaking. And it ended when we didn't get the good and evil thing right, through which we developed an angst about our own nakedness. And that is not just about the body, it's about our nature, our being, that we are not perfect in the good and evil thinking that was at that time too high for us. And our old perfection that was in innocence left us, and we invented morality which is again such a lofty thing and we don't handle it well and the reality we live in now has been regulated and "works" but is in fact not as humane as it could be. There has been a gap in our development and we can't fix it but only make it work somehow. And especially when being sick you feel that, which might be the true origin of the christian notion that our fall in Paradise brought us actual sicknesses and diseases and death. Since that time we think we know death - before the Fall in Paradise, we were still alive and knew life as superior to death in a spiritual way, not as inferior or so frighteningly different and finishing us up. I'd like to know what you think of this idea. And if my post depresses you spiritually, I want to say that there is a christian notion that Paradise still follows us. In nature we often find new peace and joy. And also, in a way maybe the Fall had to happen for civilization's sake. This is a bit of a stretch, but worth considering. We have a human experience with many stories. And while our experience contains evil and imperfection, we can see in that a side of ourselves that needn't be evil itself. As a christian I think some day we can sing songs about it, and after all it is also true that we struggle with the evil and have scored many victories in life, both individually and as a group. And the Earth is the location of our love reality. And our human dignity and God make sure we don't forget it.
  24. I think in progressive christianity there are many people rather estranged or disillusioned from conservative christianity. Some of us might even be atheists or agnostics, they identify as christians, as belonging to the subset of human christianity, but they don't go the usual believing route. I wanted to show some things which I believe are helpful. Not theories or explanations, but just some ... things. I want to start with a little cosmology. We are in a universe, probably even a multiverse, that is completely infinite and complex. So if we manage to look through things like a child, undisturbed by human issues or perhaps despite of them, we can see that we have reason to marvel at the universe, at ourselves, and at life. This is for me something that connects to the human need for happiness. The human quest for happiness in his life is something that I actually revere. It's the main reason why I don't believe in a plain and complete atheistic materialism or a completely rational explanation of our existence. Happiness makes us into beings of plasticity. A happy person is metaphysically free to live, because when we are happy we agree with our life. And this happiness is like an image of the cosmos in us, as the cosmos really is. Everything in the cosmos has its reflection in us. Grey clouds correspond to sadness, a hot desert corresponds to suicide in my associative world, cold rain corresponds to melancholy and warm rain corresponds to tenderness and clarity for me. But the thing is, the cosmos does not suffer. The cosmos is happy, because happiness is a state where the happy being moves, either in thought or often, in humans, also in feelings, and actions. This is how the cosmos sparkles in my mind. The cosmos is never entirely still, although it can seem still when we are still, another reflection of the cosmos into us. And now I've wanted to come to what I intended ... this cosmos, and then ourselves, allow for a finding of Existence in this here and now, our Dasein. But this, in the same time, births our idea of God - God is our and the universes Dasein in an inclusive and yet also a special Being. This special aspect of God is what an atheist or agnostic maybe cannot see so easily, or believe in so easily. But this is where we might understand a sense of romance and love. I want to say to the atheist, we may not know if God really exists, but can we conceive of a need for God? Atheists like to make fun of God with the idea of a flying spaghetti monster. The thing is, we can create a flying spaghetti monster, and it would be ridiculously funny to build it. But is this romance and love? It is merely fun. Romance and love come in if we remember the absence of the fulfilling God. The Cosmos, however deeply we see it, has something missing. In our life we always notice that - because we do not need only happiness, we also need love. This is something I must argue from experience, the happiness that I have found through love was always by many magnitudes deeper and more fulfilling than the happiness I could get through, say, buying myself a steak or watching my favourite soccer team play. In love things became the essence of profundity. God then, is the answer to what such love makes us ask about. Is death the end of everything? Is there someone who could bless my love? Is there something that goes beyond even THIS! The happiness of the cosmos that we seek so often, the Dasein that we may understand divinely or still just "existentially", requires a conclusion. Yes, sure, you can go the stoic route and say, that was it, I must be at peace. You can be a buddhist that says, that is the nothing really, I want to fade, I want to smile and be finished. You can be an atheist and search for a normal context and say I can't change things, I need to wash my car and tomorrow I go working again. But then there's the option of theism. I don't say faith, because faith may not find our agreement yet. I just want to focus on thought for now, on making sense. We humans all believe in good luck. It's too deeply ingrained in us. Happiness and good luck are related. We feel happy because we think it's extraordinary. That's our earthen humanity that knows suffering and boredom and emptiness too. But we believe in good luck. And that is related also to God. We can believe in the good luck of there being God. It's not different from other good luck, and if we keep in mind how infinite the cosmos is, then it's not impossible that there's a God in it. What faith is, sorry, what theism is, is a search for this God based on what some people have experienced in that regard. The burden of many progressive christians is, if this God exists, why is there so much suffering connotated to Him, why is the bible so dark at places, why can I not find God more easily? There are answers to these questions, I don't want to go into them here. What I want to say is, search for God on the basis of the depth in life that I described. Search for God on the bases of the cosmos being very probably infinite. Search for God on the basis of God explaining the cosmos and its origin. Search for God because He is the counterpiece to our specific human needs. And you can see how you are in the image of God. Personally I believe in God, to a great extent because of the many spiritual experiences I've had. I had to deal with demons, I've had such horrible nightmares that I believe in something devilish, I've had visitations of God and experienced things like speaking in tongues. So for me the existence of God is almost necessary unless I want to think I am completely mad. And I'm not accepting this on the basis of a rational argument, but on the basis of my love and dignity. These things made me find the God who loves them, and contracted the problems with demons and devils who hate them. I know this may not help you when you're not inclined to listen to such stories, or perhaps they would scare you and send you into atheism all the more. But what I can encourage anyone is make a quest for God. See the cosmos - is that the work of an evil deity? Can you say that when you watch a sunrise or a flower or a little bird? That is why you don't have to be afraid. Faith in God overcomes the laziness and the fear of the supernatural. A quest for God allows you to practice faith without needing to believe. The german theologian Rudolf Bultmann had the view that faith is simply the response the message of Christ, no matter what form this response takes. It can be belief ... fantastic, but will you become an inquisitor? It may be doubt ... awful, but might you become a splendid philosopher? It may be a sack full of spiritual experiences like mine ... odd, but maybe I could profit from them, provided I don't go bonkers about them? It may be an interesting and unique thought life, especially as a progressive christian. And in these different responses we might see something like a flower opening, and each petal is precious and a normal growth. Even atheism, even agnosticism, even the thorn of satanism that couldn't be a petal too. And this is again a reminder to the happy cosmos, that is still there with us, providing a mother Earth you will most certainly believe in always. The Maker is never without the Cosmos, because He loves it, and the Cosmos is never without love for the Maker, including ourselves, because we are part of the Cosmos, and our reaction to the message of God, is the faith that He seeks, no matter how it looks like. I hope you have a good day! Many blessings to you!
  25. it's got nothing to do with the truth that you knew it is everything else, it's not something that sells it's like a face of black, a king in drag and outside where the world is turning, it's only a candle's quiet burning some would say it's a belief, but it still feels like trying to breathe... finding a purer kind of oxygen, in the eyes of a God that looks like James Dean it's got nothing to do with a rule and law, it's more like telling the heart what it saw and trying to explain what you feel, believing that something is real something we all love to remember, and celebrate in the cold december a happiness in poverty, an idea of love for you and me that might have been forgotten, that easily seems rotten and what smells bad, we always want to forget... but there is no carcass in this, just a child's festive day bliss that another easter makes small and mild, until again you feel like a child in a night that feels like the better day, feelings aren't splendid but you say it's okay and you understand inbetween a surprising sigh, that this life with God might be given a try and if you mess up, he'll still offer his cup and it's not just cold water, it's not his end of a barter that there is a God who always knew, that He couldn't be something else but loving you and he's just a child, can't be strong and wild only governs our time, like poems that rhyme and we're his small clock, he winds it up, we tick tock and this faint feeling, is like a weak kneeling before a face we can't see, before a dream we can't be? or maybe we can, and God's our fan and tonight you would say, love would come the next day and it doesn't just come, it's what we have done and the city is breathing, your chest is heaving there's another sigh coming, another drum drumming january has worked so well, a broken church's last old bell the next month is smiling, the prisoner's filing away the last bar, freedom's not very far but there is another, and he's not just a laugher he felt you bleed, you saw his need for maybe just a day, when we both would be gay and say to the sky, it's for love, the last why...
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