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Stanley

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Everything posted by Stanley

  1. What a great discussion. I started one similar but thankfully Dutch pointed me to this one. (I will search better next time ) It is so nice to hear atonement doesn't make sense to others for the exact same reasons I have had problems with it. I have heard that "Jesus died for our sins" so many times and the people in my wife's church have have tried to explain it to me but all I can ever say in response is, "That doesn't make a bit of sense." I just can understand why it makes so much sense to them. As I see it, Jesus dying on the cross did two different things: It ended the sacrificial system. I believe God never required sacrifice, but to primitive humans it made sense. Almost all primitive cultures brought sacrifice to religion so it is something inherently human. Jesus dying on the cross ended that system and opened the door to a more mature religion. Granted, that hasn't happened yet, but there is still hope. I don't think I have to support myself Biblically, but when I read Hebrews 10:5 I thought it was interesting. That is repeated in Psalms 53:16 and in some other places. The other thing it did was make big news. If Jesus would have died an old man he might have been a footnote in history but would not have sparked a new transforming religion. Jesus' message was transformative and him dying a gruesome death gave his message a life of its own. Again, what a great discussion and a great board. I am very excited to hear the thoughts of like minds and at a high, well informed level. The internet is so filled with drivel it is wonderful to find a place that uses it to expand understanding.
  2. Stanley

    Election 2012

    It will be interesting to see the results but I will be surprised if it trends any different than it is going right now. I almost always vote third party because I think the hyper-partisan politics will continue until both major parties start seeing people losing faith in them. Ross Perot did a great job with that and actually got the parties thinking (just a little bit). The party I was excited about was The Natural Law party that had Dr. John Hagelin was their presidential candidate. But they shut down in 2004. I felt a little guilty for having a protest vote when Gore lost to Bush by such a small margin. The third parties got us Bush for eight years. But I live in Texas, so there could never be enough third party votes siphoned from the Democrats to even give them a chance.
  3. Rivanna, Thank for the Huffington post blog. I have been confused by the GOP-Christian match up for a long time. I recently wrote a blog that talks about almost the same thing: http://bit.ly/S94pOK Basically, I think the Republicans are a one issue party for most Christians. This thread is under "books" so I will stop here. But I would like to hear some other thoughts on the GOP-Christian match up so I may start a thread in the appropriate place later today. Thanks for the book recommendations.
  4. You know, it doesn't stand out that he pushed that. You made me go look up the difference between fundamentalist and evangelical. It seems that all evangelical Christians don't necessarily take the Bible literally. He struck me a very rational person and the main purpose of the book was to show that science and religion are not at odds with each other. But maybe someone else has a different take on the book.
  5. I am surprised this book isn't here. It is one I really enjoyed. Francis Collins was in charge of the Human Genome Project. At one point in his life he was an atheist, which he says means he didn't really think about it, but when he started thinking about it he read a lot of C.S. Lewis and that clicked with him. He now calls himself an evangelical Christian. What I liked about the book is he explains his positions on different topics based on logic. He is very critical of the creationist. He says that branches of Christianity who teach creationism are going to diminish Christianity. If kids are taught creationism at a young age and then go to college and learn in their first geology class they have been deceived (my words, not his) they are likely to reject Christianity as a whole. I like his tone and the way he came across in general. It was a peaceful expression of his thoughts/beliefs and was not pushing the reader to believe one way or another.
  6. Very interesting conversation on Love Wins. I thought it was a great book. Although I don't think modern day theology needs to be strictly Bible based, I liked how Bell supported his theology using the Bible. If he wants to reach the people who believe in inerrancy and move them towards a more healthy relationship with the Bible, he needs to support what he says Biblically. I thought he did a wonderful job doing that. I also liked how he focused on Heaven and Hell not being somewhere else. Christians (and everyone else) need to focus on making this time, this Earth, our Heaven instead of turning it into our Hell because it’s a temporary home. I think many Christians see the Earth as rental property for which they don’t have to pay the electric bill or worry about maintenance. Heaven (somewhere else) is their home. Sing along with me: “This world is not my home, I’m just a passin’ through” But the part I like best was his telling of the Prodigal Son. That struck me very hard. I won’t go into details but the book is worth reading just for that. We have all been invited to the party; we are all welcome to the party; and we are all worthy of the party, so let’s enjoy it. On the down side, I found his layout/phrasing very annoying. It was like he wanted every sentence to be noticed so he made almost every sentence a paragraph. I have never seen a book with so much white space. For me, that made the book hard to read because I was annoyed. But, that may just be my issue and the therapy may help if we can ever get the medication levels worked out.
  7. I thought Stealing Jesus was an outstanding book. I thought Bawer did a great job of supportig "the church of love" over "the church of law." Also, when he started talking about vertical growth vs. horizontal growth, my issues with the church, and humanity in general, started become more clear. Most growth nowadays is a very shallow, worldly growth and most people never really look deeply at who they truly are and their relationship with the infinite. I will have to look at Killinger's book if Rog says it is better.
  8. Got it figured out. Under "Custom" at the top of the topic list I selected "Show All" under Time Frame. Looks like there are 12 pages now. I even see Paul Tillich listed. I have read some of his sermons and have a lot of his books I got from Half Price Books. Still need to read those though.
  9. When I look at the "Book Discussions" I only see 8 topics and just a single page. There is not the option to go to other pages like other areas have. Is there something wrong with the thread or my view? Glad to hear Rob Bell was discussed. I have to admit I was worried when I only saw 8 books being discussed. I couldn't believe books weren't one of the main things discussed here. I was going to recommend a bunch. Hope we can figure out why I can't see the other topics. That was an area I was looking forward to seeing.
  10. I am very courious to hear others but these three responses go along with the direction I have been going for a while. It is good to hear some like minded views and validate what I have been thinking. There are only a few people I talk to who can really step back and say the premise of a belief is what is wrong. That is when answers start to appear. If you already know the answer you will never really be able to learn the really answer. Thanks for the book recommendation, Steve. My dad has been wanting me to read "Speaking Christian" by Borg. I have not read any of his stuff so I guess he will make it to my reading list now. I just read Rob Bell's "Love Wins". I thought he did a great job on some of those topics also.
  11. When I was in my late teens I started to get more into Christianity. While on that path I tried to do things that made me closer to the person I thought a Christian should be. One of the things I saw as important was honesty, so I started trying to be more honest. I wasn’t a dishonest person before but I tried to make sure what I said was truthful to the extent I could. But a weird thing happened because of that. In all honesty, I had to admit to myself that the basic premise of Christianity didn’t make sense to me. Why would a God of love require Jesus to be the ultimate blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sins? Even more so, why would a God of perfect love, perfect peace be so arrogant to require any blood sacrifices at all? So my plan to become more religious/Christian ended up eroding my Christian faith. Over the years I have asked that question but have never received a decent answer. I figured people here have thought about it and I would be curious to hear some ideas.
  12. Thanks for the welcome Pete (and everyone else). I was looking at your link and got to number 23 and thought, "What the heck is that!" I had never heard them mention anything like that. Ends up the Church of Christ in your link is a LDS branch (wikipage). This is the one I was referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ One thing I don't want to do is bash the church. Please let me know if I come across too critical. Certain structures work for different people to grow, expand, learn to love better, etc. The CofC doesn't do that for me but may for others. But this church is pretty accepting of me and I don't hide what I believe, but try not to be too antagonistic.
  13. No problem with the name. I probably should have thought about it a minute or two more and went with WillH or something like that. J I was looking for an option to change it but don’t see one. Musical instruments in America was the split between the Church of Christ and the Christian Church. My father-in-law was a Church of Christ minister but, at one point, when changing preaching gigs the only thing that came up was a Christian Church position. They were really torn as to whether to take it. Exact same theology but they had pianos, guitars, drums, etc. When they took it they actually had CofC friends tell them the love them but can no longer associate with them. The funny thing is, what I like most about the CofC is the absents of instruments. They are beautiful singers. Any church I have been to with instruments it seems singing is just something you stand up and do during part of the service and people mumble along to the piano. My wife is an awesome singer and I love hearing her sing.
  14. Yeah, that is the same. Don't see your page meantion (lack of) musical insterments but the rest looks the same and they mention the same people starting the movement.
  15. Paul, Is the C of C in Australia the same as the US? Joseph, I just looked over the PC's eight points. Sounds like a great platform for growth. I emailed the link a friend and he was thrilled to see a group thinking in this direction. I have been reading over many of the topics and like what I am reading. I am excited to find a place to question things.
  16. I still scratch my head at Creationism. People in my wife’s church tell me not to get hung up on that because it isn’t a salvation issue. I tell them it is a credibility issue. If you can believe something that is obviously not true then I really am not going to listen to you about salvation because you are most like just as misguided about that.
  17. I would say the thing that has pushed me forward is listening to things that don't make sense to me. I have been going to a fundamentalist church for 18 because I believe family unity is important. My wife is a firm believer and I respect that (she may not say the same thing ) and don't want to cause too much confusion in the family over religion. I tell my kids what I believe but let them know their path is theirs. But going to her church has caused me to define (or try to define) what I believe. Over the years I have done a lot of reading and thinking. I am new to this site and when poking around I have seen a number of books mentioned. That is wonderful because I am always looking for different perspectives. What is interesting is the minister to her church is one of my best friends. He and I talk about religion all the time. He is a very knowledgeable and open minded guy and is more interested in what I think than trying to “save” me.
  18. Hello everyone, This looks like an interesting forum. I grew up in a Methodist church in Michigan and moved to Texas and married a woman whose dad is a Church of Christ minister. That was the first I have ever heard of the Church of Christ but have been going for 18 now and still don't get them. They are nice, loving people for the most part but I don't get the doctrine. That has caused me to do a lot of reading on my own and contemplating about the subject. I look forward to reading and interacting here with others that may have the same questions or similar philosophies as me. Thanks, Will
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