romansh

Did the graphic novel depict this scene?  

Quote

 

“You sound to me as though you don’t believe in free will,” said Billy Pilgrim.

“If I hadn’t spent so much time studying Earthlings,” said the Tralfamadorian, “I wouldn’t have any idea what was meant by free will.  I’ve visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe, and I have studied reports on one hundred more.  Only on Earth is there any talk of free will.”  

-- Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse–Five

 

So it goes.

 anonymous

On 2/28/2024 at 5:45 AM, Samia Ung said:

I'm too new here to label myself as a progressive christian but to me grace means accepting God's love and forgiveness. It means being free from constant self guilt, blame, or judgement and living free and with God's love and eye always on you. 

Grace ... understanding there is nothing to forgive.

20 hours ago, Buckeyeinwv said:

Any idea where someone like me might fit?  I call myself a Christian.  

Some would argue, wherever you are is exactly where you should be. If by 'fit in' you mean someone to affirm your position ... I am the wrong person for that  I'd be happy to question your beliefs though.

Welcome

rom

My brain experiences conflicting wants and those wants come from the greater environment. So I don't see different parts of the environment having different wants as a problem.

On 1/29/2024 at 3:41 PM, PaulS said:

In the broader sense it is, but I thought you were indicating 'environment' as separate or different to our wants.  I do agree that 'environment' can encompass al

From my perspective, separating "I" from the environment (and ultimately everything) is at best an illusion brought on by a lack of understanding and observation. This 'connectedness' is my religion in a semantic-literal way or perhaps my philosophy.

On 1/25/2024 at 4:13 PM, PaulS said:

I'm not convinced that the environment is responsible for changing our wants. For instance, in Australia we currently have a fair bit of debate going on around our National Day of Celebration on 26 January - Australia Day.  This date was selected as it is the date the first fleets from England arrived on Australian Shores and raised the English flag as they claimed the land (irrespective of indigenous peoples already living on the continent). The date itself has changed throughout history.  Currently the debate is about changing the date again to recognize that the arrival of England's Fleet to Australia wasn't much good news for the indigenous residents. But my point is that people are affecting the debate, and others are reflecting on those arguments.  So more than likely what i see is people favouring a particular point of view that in turn will change the environment.  Once that environment is changed, yes, others will probably change their thinking over time, but still, the change was initiated by people's thinking changing in the first place, I think.

Is this not all part of your environment?

18 hours ago, PaulS said:

they would have liked to change their wants,

And here we see the beginnings of the infinite regress .. wanted to change wants.

My point ... as expressed in the free will thread all too often, our wants are shaped by the environment, past present (and perhaps expected future).

Using "age of consent" as proxy for marriage, it is a relatively new thing that children have to be older ... last two hundred years or so. Incidentally, Australia has a mish mash of consent ages.

20 hours ago, PaulS said:

Definitely our wants get re-shaped, but I think you're asking if it's our wants that change and subsequently the culture changes as a reflection of those changed wants?  I tend to think it's both - maybe some people are ahead of the pack in changing their wants, but then that impacts culture, which then in turn changes and may make others reconsider their wants. I think.

Using your 13 year old girl being given to marriage ... I suspect what changed was life slowly got less harsh and the age of being 'given' was raised as a result. I don't think people change their wants, at least not in the proactive sense.

Saved from what? It does not matter anyway, we were not in danger from that.

While self-imposed labels are useful (sometimes limiting or occasionally misleading) in describing "where we are coming from", I find it strange that we label ourselves in millennia-old doctrines albeit somewhat modified. Being a non-theist Buddhist does that make one a kind of atheist?

From a personal point of views, it is does not hurt to take look at the past and see what conclusions people have come to. But also we should take a look around today. What might have passed as wisdom two thousand or more years ago just might not pass muster today.

On 1/16/2024 at 9:02 PM, PaulS said:

 

And those 'wants' change over time.  For instance, it used to be acceptable for a Jewish girl of 13 or 14 to be given into marriage by her father.  Such an activity would be considered 'evil' today.  Our understanding of 'evil' adapts and changes with our society and culture.

Or is it our wants have been reshaped?

I came across this quote yesterday ... not sure what to make of it ...

I think the notion that the species can be improved in some way, that everyone could live in harmony, is a really dangerous idea. Those who are afflicted with this notion are the first ones to give up their souls, their freedom. Your desire that it be that way will enslave you and make your life vacuous. -- Cormac McCarthy

On 1/11/2024 at 4:24 PM, PaulS said:

... behavior that we don't want

This is exactly what I think it [evil etc] is. Of course, I extend my wants on to my community.

This leads to the question as to where our wants (will) come from. This leads of course to another topic from which I will refrain for the moment  

12 hours ago, PaulS said:

I don't believe in evil either as a stand-alone 'thing'.  What we call evil is simply a judgement we make.  In our heads we determine whether we think something is evil - it doesn't make it so, it just aids in communication I guess.

Evil (and the various associated dichotomies) is a useful concept to manipulate people and societies in general.

11 hours ago, tariki said:

Thanks

From my experience, I would be even more sad if the friend had never come into your life or anyone else's.

My "best man" passed away some ten years ago now. A combination of heart issues and excessive drinking. He was still living in England. He lived across the street from me, when I was three.

I know everything is a big word,  but I think it might help put Gen 2:19 and 3:22 into context a little bit. 

I am convinced Campbell himself did not actually believe in evil. I certainly don't. But Campbell is pointing to a way about thinking about this aspect of existence.

This quote might be debatable ... but I think it is worth some thought.

You yourself are participating in evil, or you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil to someone. This is one of the ironies of creation.
Power of Myth Joseph Campbell

On 12/29/2023 at 4:48 PM, PaulS said:

It's a nice thought to plan on leaving a ‘good’ legacy

Back in 2008 ... I was in the Andes, Peru. My colleague stopped at a cutting, where there were fossilized dyno footprints wandering across some muddy ancient shore. The footprints were 120 My old. It got me wondering what footprints will I leave. Two thoughts crossed my mind.

• I am leaving footprints all the time, some obvious and some not so obvious. Most probably won't be seen after millions of years.
• Wanting to have visible footprints is a vanity (which is OK if we are into that kind of thing).

22 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think 'suffering' comes from thinking life should be any different to how it is. 

✅

Whenever I find myself using the word "should" I am questioning what I really mean.

Happy New Year to those in that time zone.

11 hours ago, tariki said:

Hi Rom, you always were the argumentative one!

😀

I'll take that as a compliment. At least you did not suggest I was quarrelsome. 

Happy New Year etc. etc.

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

You win the prize for closest to Santa I think!

Not if Santa is at the azimuth ... London will be closer.

The etymology of the word religion comes from the Latin for re-connect.

Only if we realized that all was not separate in the first place.

Merry Christmas from north of the 49th Parallel.

Your mistake or God's will, Paul?  

I filched this from Gus's Facebook