Raven

@ Myron, I liked your post about your beautiful prayer - I tried to vote it up, and of course accidentally voted it down. I'm very sorry I don't know how to undo it, but I'll try!

IMO, God designed human beings with intelligent brains, and also free will. It is not up to God to make the world a better place, I don't think; it is up to us to recognize the gifts we have been given, and use them in ways to make a better world for ourselves. It's easy to ask why God doesn't magically feed all the starving children in Africa - I prefer to ask why the malovent governments in charge of those areas make decisions that create an environment for children to starve to death. They have free will, and brains, and they have used them to do evil things. We can pray for them, that they will have a change of heart and show mercy and be generous, but in the end, it is often up to the individual. God can call to people (and I believe He does) but people don't have to answer. It's not an easy question, and I'm glad this thread has been opened. I think for me, the reason I don't tend to pray for things that are out of this world reflects what I've always thought about God and the universe: things tend to work out as they are meant to - though it's not always obvious. It's maybe naive, and falls into the "God works in mysterious ways" type of thinking, but truly, I belive that some things are, simply because they are. By design alone, bumblebees are not supposed to be able to fly, but they do. (Perhaps they prayed for it? ) It just is, and perhaps it's part of a bigger plan that we puny humans are simply too small to see. What do I pray for? On a bad day, I pray for strength and ease from pain. On a good day, I pray thankfully and hope for more to come. I pray for my loved ones, for answers to difficult situations. I vent my frustrations and whisper my hopes. I pray for the ability to say and do the right thing, and to be of some use. Maybe to some it is childish, but it makes sense to me.

Dutch, Great explanation. Your brain is always so busy with excellent ideas!

Thoughts? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149227/Gospel-Barnabas-cause-Christianitys-collapse-Iran-claims.html

Some of this conversation is a bit over my head, but I'll just say this part: on my end, I find prayers take many forms. Sometimes I pray for intervention, sometimes I pray for guidance. Sometimes I pray for strength and other times just give it over. Sometimes prayer is more like a conversation, or a venting session, or like a psychologist's chesterfield. All those, and more types, come from one person - and I can't imagine I'm the only one. Is there constraint in prayer? The only constraint I've come across are ones I've put there with my own ego. As for what God can and can't do, I think it's more what He will or won't do. Could God change a jeep into a helicopter? Why not? More importantly though, why would He?

Paul, These kinds of people can frustrating to be around, and I applaud your ability to be cool in such a situation. I have some fundy family members (fundy missionaries, which sometimes seems even worse) and while they are good people and I love them dearly, sometimes I feel like tearing my hair out. Is there anything you can say to change their mind? Probably not - just like nothing they say is likely to change yours. I prefer to beandip - as in, "Interesting idea. Hey, have you tried the beandip?" After almost 30 years of having "visits" (attempts to convert disguised as social get-togethers) I have learned to just let it wash, like water off a duck's back. I'm not saying this is what you should do, but it's something I've experienced that might be helpful. People who get fired up like that are looking for an argument - why give them one?

Interesting thought, Norm, and I don't tend to disagree. However, as a question - do you think there's something inherent in relgious institutions that might account for the ways some have treated gay/lesbian people, or is it more about using the church/mosque/synagogue (etc) as a centre for the social issues?

Dutch, That is great news. It sounds like you and Diane have been through a lot on your journeys. I wish you all the best. Raven

Yvonne is right. Though there has been some contentious discussion lately, even at the most heated moments I have been impressed at the way everyone here has been respectful and not gone for the lowest points. Good job, everyone!

In an ideal world, total non-violence would be doable. We'd be able to reason with everyone, and words would be enough. However, this is the world we live in, and it's imperfect. The threats that lurk are real, and sometimes words are not enough. Personally, while I am not a violent person, I would rather physically defend myself than try to talk my way out of being raped - I seriously doubt that would work. I don't think violence should be the first line of defense unless absolutely necessary, but I also don't think it can be discounted. As Norm mentioned above, self-preseveration or preservation of loved ones can (and should?) override the romantic ideal of non-violence. $0.02

I like this question, and I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. "Practice" for me consists of a few things: Bible study, prayer/meditation, community service (in a variety of forms), asking questions, being kind and loving, and searching for ... well, searching, anyway.

You're welcome, Jenell! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

That sounds incredible, Dutch. I love hearing about inclusive, dynamic churches!

I agree with your stance, George. As in all aspects of life, I doubt there is any such thing as real, true perfection. However, like you say, finding a place that has nothing "objectionable" is key. I could not tolerate a church that was not welcoming of member of the LGBTQ community. I could not tolerate a church that was politically conservative. I could not tolerate a church that held misogynistic viewpoints. To me, the right community is inclusive, welcoming, flexible, positive, loving, and safe.

It's always refreshing to see someone of prominence stand up and say, "Yes, I've changed my mind about this. Yes, I've evolved." It takes guts to do that, especially when so much of the world is watching and waiting. My super-fundy cousins are already up in arms about the whole thing. Times like this, I'm happy that Facebook has the "unsubscribe" option. Blech.

Agreed on all counts, George. I think Facebook really drives people apart, in a lot of cases. Facebook has shown me sides of some friends/family members I didn't know they had - some things can't be unlearned, and it's unfortunate. It's part of the massively egotistical world in which we live, I suppose. You are right, as well, about incompatible doctrines. That's even why I don't visit any other Christian forums except for this one - so many others are far too fundamentalist for my tastes. (The only thing I enjoy about fundy churches is the music - very engaging and fun!) I used to belong and will be returning to the United Church of Canada, which is quite progressive both politically and in approach to doctrine.

Q: What makes the search for meaning and purpose in today’s world an important undertaking? The world has become smaller, thanks to the increased use and abilities of technology. However, by that same stroke, some of us (like myself) have lost a connected feeling to any real "community." It's as if the more we connect artificially (through technology) the less we may feel connected in real life. This is part of what has brought me back to the church, truthfully. I am tired of feeling alone, and miss having a community to connect with, fellowship with, journey with. As the world makes me feel more fragmented, I feel a more earnest desire to glue my own piece back together. As well, I think the more crises the world sees, the more people search for meaning and purpose, as a balm for their pain. The World Bank collapse, 9/11, the war in the Middle East, cancer, AIDS .... a lot of horrible things have happened and continue to happen. I think when people are exposed, even indirectly to these issues, they start to ask questions and look for answers. Today's world is a beautiful and ugly place. I suspect it always has been, but sometimes I suspect it's moreso than it used to be. The worse things seem, the more people search for hope.

Dutch, That sounds like a really neat experience! Is it a big church or a small church? What an involved, inclusive way to share communion. Sounds lovely! Minsocal, Amen! I find it hard to picture Jesus saying, "Oh, you have celiac? Sorry you have to have the bread that's going to turn your belly inside out for the next three days, or you have to sit on the floor." And yet, that's what some churches are telling celiacs.

You're welcome. Normally I don't repost FB stuff but the message there really struck a chord in me. "Which wolf am I feeding?" may become my new self-talk!

I saw this posted on my friend's Facebook today, and I had to share it with you all. 'An old man told his grandson, "My son, there is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is Evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies, & ego. The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness, empathy, & truth. The boy thought about it and asked, "Grandfather, which wolf wins?" The old man quietly replied, "The one you feed."'

We can argue all day about whether or not "profiling" is right or wrong, but the truth is that we all do it. Making quick decisions about the likely behaviours of strangers is a survival technique. We decide who is more likely or less likely to harm us, and we do it fast. Refusing to judge people by absolutely anything but their character is a lovely ideal, but is not realistic. When I'm walking by myself down the street and I pass a group of men, I assess the situation (as a woman, fyi) and will often make the choice to avoid walking by them. Sure, they might be perfectly nice gentlemen, but they might not be, and I would rather them think I'm a sexist moron than be put in a situation that is not safe. It's too bad that some radical Muslims have caused such chaos and mistrust for peaceful Muslims world over, but it's the world we live in. Easy to say as a white girl, I know. I can't say what I would do in that situation. Right now, some radical, angry Muslims are causing a lot of problems for a lot of people in the world. Based on that information, it would be stupid to pretend like an incident isn't even a slight possibility. As long as the violence continues, so will the profiling. However, how do you really profile someone based on their religion? Not all Muslims have dark-skin, and not all Muslims dress in a way that easily identifies them as Muslims anyway...so I do see some flaw in that.

Good luck, Stas82! I hope you have a really positive experience.

David, A forum, like any organization, has rules. People are free to join if they choose, but in doing so, they accept the responsibility of following those rules. If a progressive Christian joined a fundamentalist Christian forum, the progressive would likely not be encouraged to talk about acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex marriage, for example - I have seen these rules on many other Christian forums on the internet. Because that made me uncomfortable, I did not choose to join those forums. If someone feels that a progressive Christian is not really a Christian, then why come to a forum expressly designed for progressive Christians? An exchange of ideas is always welcome, but there is a big difference between "civil conversation" and having someone try to label you (or un-label you) against your will, based on their own preconceived notion. It's like dating for conversion.

+1 As we keep discussing here, religion and its entities are hard to nail down. What does it take for someone to be a Christian? That's not an easy to question to answer, at least for me anyway. A bigger question to me is why a person might be concerned about someone potentially "falsely" calling themselves a Christian. Someone can know all the Scripture, have read the Bible and other supporting documents a billion times over; they can go to church every Sunday and belong to every prayer group under the sun - does that make them a Christian? Or, is there more to it than that? Perhaps there is less. Moreover, is that up to anyone to decide on another person's behalf? Personally, I don't think so.

So true! Really, so many of our disappointments in people/outcomes lie within our own expectations. We get frustrated because people don't agree with us - is that a problem with them or with us? It's a problem with us, with our own egos not making room for another person. By trying to force other people to be the same, or behave in a certain way, we are really just increasing the distance between us. Like you say, if that person isn't hurting you directly (or doing something horrible like rape/murder/assault) then really, butt out. You can give that person encouragement, spend time with them, be a good friend, but pointing fingers is not appropriate. I've been having this discussion with Mr. Raven for quite a while now, as he and his brother are having some trouble relating. Sure, as people who love the brother, we wish he were making different decisions in his life - but it's his life and his decisions, and we can't live for him. We can maintain open communication, invite him to spend time with us, pray for him, set a good example - but getting in his face, "You shouldn't be ______" is not going to do any good. In fact, it'll probably make things worse. Sometimes we set the bar so high in our expectations, that it's impossible for others not to fall short. Then we feel angry that they fall short of our expectations. By adjusting our expectations to be reasonable, we can eradicate that feeling of anger. For example: in my personal relationships with people, I expect that they be honest with me, not harm me or my loved ones, and be respectful. The decisions they make about their own lives (their hobbies, significant others, whether or not to go back to school or change jobs, how to spend their money) has nothing to do with me, beyond my hopes that they are healthy and well. Of course, it's easier to say than do, but by focusing on my love for them, holistically, I can help myself avoid the pitfalls of getting overinvolved and crossing the line.