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Pete

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Everything posted by Pete

  1. Welcome Erik. I look forward to hearing more from your journey.
  2. Hi Annein, I think your question is important. I used to be a fundamentalist and I know it is hard to challenge such things that one has brought up to never challenge. I could go with a history of the bible and how it came into being and the differing groups that existed in the early years and their take on things. I could go with the huge number of biblical contradictions and its often inconsistency. I could go with how I believe Jesus differed from Paul. I could go with some of the terrible things that the bible said God did and the fact there is little evidence that many of these things ever occurred. I could go into the psychology behind fundamentalism in many faiths. Yet, for me the fundamental question was is God righteous and loving? If the answer for you is yes then ask how a righteous and loving being could eternally punish someone in hell based upon a belief. How God needed a cruel death of someone in order to forgive and could not just forgive. How some of the many loving people of so many points of view and faith could be overlooked by a loving God. For me to contemplate a love without questioning the hardheartedness of the fundamental views I had been taught was something I could not do today. I still get the pangs of concern on occasions as this was what I was brought up to do, but each time I find if I ask myself the above questions and then I personally find it hard to contemplate the idea of the fundamentalist view of God as either righteous or loving and not one I can support any longer. One then (IMO) has to be true to oneself or be false to oneself.
  3. I think you have (IMO) brought up a major point for me Paul. As I understand it 2 Timothy first appeared in Northern Spain (somewhere that Paul did not go) during a time Paul was either already killed or at least in prison in Rome. It was not accepted by many including the Syrian Orthodox church for some time. However, that said I personally do not believe Paul believed the same as the disciples in Jerusalem and his connection with them and the faith that Jesus had is for me very debatable. I accept there are things to be learnt from writings from many sources. However, I think you will find many progressives, unlike conservatives, do not see the word of God and the Bible as the self same thing. It is (IMO) just the opinion of those who lived before us and like now, written by people who can be subject to being wrong as well as correct. . The mistake is that many conservatives give Jesus the credit for things said by Paul and quote 2 Timothy 3:16 to back them up. The trouble with that notion is that most of the Gnostic Gospels were also seen at one time as scripture and bible followers dismiss those. It took to the second council at Carthage (in 397 AD) to decide what to put in the Bible and we as they have/had no original text and many variations of the available text. It is also worth noting that the oldest bible we have today is on line and even in the 1600s there were books that do not appear in our present bible. see:- http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/ In short our present bible is a synthesis over the years and from many and varied sources. There is also much debate about the authors of the NT. Did they have any connection to Jesus or his disciples? It is very hard to prove that they did. I still think despite this there are many valuable lessons in the bible whether one takes it literally or not. That said, I personally would go with the word of God does exist and God has been said to speak to mankind in that still small quiet voice within each of us long before one word of the bible was ever written or since. I would suggest that you listen to that inner voice with the spirit of love. There is (IMO) more understanding and compassion there and it has more about meaning than the message of fear and damnation for not following every word of a book of collected and edited works of possibly 2000+/- yrs ago. A friend of mine was challenged to say which bible he got his sermon from. He said the same one Jesus used. It was then met with silence. Well that is just my personal point of view. I am sure your journey will lead you to yours.
  4. Hi John, I guess you may get a varied response on this. I personally would go with allowing the spirit and love to guide you. I am not big on always trusting 100% how others saw and wrote about things 2000yrs ago. Although there is much to ponder upon in 2 Timothy I do not see it as my singular guiding light as do many conservatives. At the time this was written the world was seen in a very differing way. I used to go to Elim Pentecostal Evangelical church as a child and I get what you mean by the way services go. I remember the excitement expressed by all. There was little place for questioning and expressing alternative views or ever doubting what one was being told. It was only later I looked at things for myself and for me I could not feel I could return to that type of service again. (IMO) if you let the power of love guide you then I do not think one is going to go far wrong.
  5. Croeso John. I hope your journey and membership of the forum brings you many blessings
  6. Welcome beachGal. Please may I repeat what you said. " I just don't necessarily think Christianity is the ONLY way anymore. I see Jesus' message as one of radical love to ALL people. There are other religions out there that are right for other people, and mine is not to say that is wrong for them. Too many bad things have happened in our world as a result of fear, hate, and closed-mindedness. " Exactly (IMO) and history has shown this often. Welcome
  7. Welcome Gaylordcat. I remember reading a pagan book which spoke about the importance of myth. It remarked that whether a thing was actually true or not was not the main issue but what affect it had upon ones life by believing in it was. Some dismiss myth as trivial but myth is important in the culture, viewpoints and values a society has. I personally feel Jesus did exist but more as a Jewish man from the Judaic faith rather than the divine character as portrayed by Paul and the NT. Yet, despite this I feel that there is much to be learned from the said teachings but taking everything as literal in the bible is just not one of them for me. Maybe much maybe myth or not but like the book I read said its not the main issue for me. The trouble I feel is that many conservatives do not understand the power of myth. Hence they get stuck on this must be taken as 100% truth or you can only be very wrong and there is no middle ground. Yet in life there is often middle ground in my experience. Welcome
  8. Hi Element. I really loved your opening statement. Welcome to the forum.
  9. Welcome Amy, Its good to hear from you and I can echo much of what you have said. This personal need to question conservative teachings has been as struggle for me too. I nowadays, personally simplify things by saying to myself if God is love then those who seek love as an aspiration to their lives are of the same faith as me regardless of whatever else they call their faith. Conservatives may have the stronger voice on many of the matters in Christianity but I just do not see it as loving as they do to judge others as worthy of severe eternal judgement and damnation on the basis that they have a differing view. I do not see it as loving of God to say that Jesus must suffer a terrible death as the only means that forgiveness can be given. The whole idea of the eternal damnation of sending someone to hell to suffer forever on the basis of a given belief is for me monstrous and I have strong questions about this. If God is supposed to have a superior view of righteousness to man than it has (IMO) to be based in love. If God is not of love then why would people choose to follow. If God is of love then who can possibly be outside of it?
  10. Wow! what a post. Welcome Kathy. its great to hear from you. I understand that the sureness that conservatives have about their beliefs and it can be comforting for some. I remember and miss those days. However, I just cannot personally be a part of it without struggling with what I have learned and the many questions I have. Hence, I now do not see a Christian nowadays as someone who accepts a given set of beliefs but more as a person who accepts their personal journey to the truth they seek, inspired by the life of Jesus and tries to live that. Its that openness to the mystery to be led or to travel (if you prefer). I see God as the focus of the mystery rather than some (IMO) mentally unbalanced figure who can only forgive someone if something has to suffer and die as a sacrifice first. Hence, when I am in conservative settings I cannot help but feel the gulf between how they see things and how I personally do. I just say to myself they are on a differing path to the truth they seek and I am also doing this by another path. I hope you find a home here. I look forward to reading more from you on the forum
  11. Welcome Scott. I think you ask a great question. I guess its the same for me as where would I be if I never heard of people like you have mentioned who can think outside of tradition and in a progressive way. I guess a believer in exile. Welcome
  12. I too welcome diversity and seek truth (as in what resonates within me) from where ever it comes from. I believe that there is that of God in all and all can teach one something. I guess I am here because I have spent a lifetime trying be a part of Christianity but never quite fitting in with the creeds and teaching of many established denominations as I always had questions. Questions that were not welcomed in some bodies. Here I can seek my own path and and learn from the personal paths of others. Here I can feel I fit in without an the expectation of conformity and restraint against my own questioning and seeking nature. Here I can grasp for the mystery of God and acknowledge that there is so much I may never know in this life and not be forced into adopting the authorization of opinion of others in power. Here I can just be one with God and say hello to other travelers on their journeys. Here I can witness the work of God in the hearts of others and although God full nature is still my mystery to me it is a view of God I can relate to. What I think I know to day may be seen as foolishness when viewed from the future or it may not but I thank organisations like this forum for allowing me to make that journey regardless of my seeking and learning. Progressive/Liberal Christianity appears to be something I can feel I belong and still seek further understandings that I personally can own and allow others to do the same. I think that this forum is important as I feel that there may be many like me who just cannot get along with unquestionable dogma and dictates of so called Orthodox views which are really the expected view and opinion of a denomination rather than an actual openness to seeking the truth. Progressive/Liberal Christianity is a place I can feel at home and grow with. I can look at other groups who struggle with issues of equality, sexual discrimination, hierarchies, creeds and the like and feel I do not have to be a part of it. That I am very grateful for.
  13. (IMO) I guess its about finding my own path and being free to do so. Its about recognizing the differing path of each other and sharing fellowship on the road. Allowing oneself to view the mystery of God without preconditions and being led where the spirit takes one. Its about recognizing the worth of others whether they think the same, hold another faith, walk a differing path, or not, but accepting that the family of God is varied and our concepts are limited. The ability to question things and to come to acceptable conclusions we can own ourselves without the need to adopt an authoritative creed. To be moved by love and not dogma. To hope for all and not an exclusive group of people who adopt one way of thinking. To recognize that we are the church and it has no hierarchy of priests telling us what we must think. Its about seeing the varied paths we walk and still feeling we are one. United by love and seeking the best in each other and learning from each others experience as they do ours. and so much more...
  14. Discovering God is not tied to a religion and I do not have to follow all religious leaders say. I feel free to make up my own mind and believe God is still there.
  15. PaulS........."I would say that this is nowhere more obvious than the God of the bible." I agree. I have found it difficult to come to terms with the concept of a God who would condemn people to a drowning in Noah's time, destroy cities because a survey forgot some of the people in David's time, that taunted the Pharaohs by killing people in his kingdom and at the same time being prepared to die on a cross in order that none should be condemned by God and save people. For me this can only be reconciled if one sees it in the context of the aspirations of a culture's/societies/tribal's viewpoint. Constructs like eternal damnation, needing a sacrifice to forgive sin, insisting on one belief or be condemned, not seeing or valuing the love that is also in none believers, does little to promote a God with a higher moral perspective. I believe this is because the constructs cannot (imo) easily be said to originate from a position of love. It therefore appears to contradict (IMO) the message of the bible that is being promoted by many. as Paul puts it:- in Corinthians 12:31-13:8 Be ambitious for the higher gifts. And I am going to show you a way that is better than any of them. If I have all the eloquence of men or of angels, but speak without love, I am simply a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. If I have the gift of prophecy, understanding all the mysteries there are, and knowing everything, and if I have faith in all its fullness, to move mountains, but without love, then I am nothing at all. If I give away all that I possess, piece by piece and if I even let them take my body to burn it, but am without love, it will do me no good whatever. Love is always patient and kind; it is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offence, and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people’s sins but delights in the truth; it is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes. Love does not come to an end. from:- http://www.organist.co.uk/newread4.htm If this is true then what does it say about the said activities of God in the bible.
  16. I like Paul's comment. I believe God is beyond our knowing. I believe that many people who started religions and belief structures did so to help them resolve the situation of not knowing. In order to resolve the not knowing I believe they formed constructs about how they saw God. What is often missed (IMO) is the recognition that these constructs are constructs and not the same thing as God. I believe one can see many of these constructs in the Bible. The Bible describes God in differing ways. God is a Jealous God, God is an angry God, God is vengeful, God is merciful, God is compassionate and God is love. How one sees God I believe depends on the mind of the person choosing their constructs about God. I am in the camp of saying God is love because I believe love is the higher moral position. If God is not love then I would not know why I should follow God or why anyone would do so. I believe God's presence is that of love and an aspiration and inspiration that I seek. For me to put God first is to attempt to put love first. For me, if one can see that religions are just constructs and are not actually the reality of God then one is free to throw away the labels. As Bishop Spong says God is not a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist or a Hindu. I would go as far as to say if a fellow is a seeker of bringing love into the world and this is central to their faith then as far as I am concern we share the same faith even if we do not share the same label we give to our faiths or constructs. I believe this is because they put love first and in doing so they put what I believe to be God first. Of course people are free to disagree but I have yet to find a person who feels they can describe God to the satisfaction of all others and I am sure I am not doing so either. It is however, just my view and construct of my faith in God.
  17. I posted feeling frustrated at the new arch bishops attitude to gay people in marriage and the priesthood. I have heard from many since who are working for that change. However, I suspect it will mean a split in the church between fundamentalists and Liberals before change actually happens. If that does happen then I think you know which part of the church I will with.
  18. I thank you both for your comments. I know that it may sound odd that I am considering this and I do not want to sound as if I am antagonistic to people of other beliefs on the matter. The Cof E has been a significant part of my upbringing and also my family roots. The problem I have is when the church states that it will not ordain Women Bishops or Marry gay people or ordain practicing gay ministers I feel a wrench to my heart as if I am guilty of the same views by association. I am sure Bishop Spong must also be of the similar views. The view I must consider is should I leave and make it clear why I have left or should I stay and keep complaining and hope for change. Because it is part of my roots it is a difficult decision for me. I hope you can understand where I am coming from. Its a hard decision for me and I am uncertain what to do. I am sure it would be easier for me to move on if I just left but then what about fighting for a change in the practices of the church. I have consider this for a while but have not come to a conclusion yet. However, the way things are I feel I should do something as I do not believe the said practices to be either loving on in the spirit of Jesus inspired Christianity.
  19. I mostly attend the Quakers nowadays and consider myself to be universal and liberal in my approach to Christianity. Yet, in my past I have attended a Church of England school, attended CofE Sunday school, got baptized, got confirmed CofE, been a choir boy - sacristan and Server. I have been a member for 42 years. Until about 7 years ago I would have consider myself an Anglican. However, lately I have grown disgusted with the church not accepting women Bishops, its stance on gay marriage. and the appointment of a new fundamental Arch Bishop of Canterbury. Yet on the other side of things, I see the light that ministers like Bishop Spong portrays and I hope that one day the Anglican church will face up to the need to come up to the 21st century before it becomes irrelevant to most liberal leaning members. The issue for me is do I write to the church and ask that they remove my name from their membership or stay with it as Bishop Spong has done. I am aware many fundamentalists have left because they do not feel that the church follows their understanding of biblical teachings or their acceptance of more Roman Catholic teachings. It maybe I am giving this too much consideration as I attend the Quakers now or should I keep the membership and be a liberal voice in its membership. I would be glad of your opinions and your thoughts of just how does people I admire like Bishop Spong remain.
  20. Sorry that should read:- Welcome Donald. You got me singing to hear you have joined us. The only difference is no one would pay to hear me sing unless it was to ask me to go away. Bless you and Welcome. Pete :rolleyes:I must remember to switch of my predictive texting, Sorry.
  21. Welcome Donald. You got me singing to here you have joined us. The only difference is no one would pay to hear me sing unless it was to ask me to go away. Bless you and Welcome. Pete
  22. Hi Marko, Welcome to the forum. No you are not a stupid person or a moron. I find God more of an experience, a mystery, a source of life, hope, and strength. but I could not define God to everyone's agreement or understanding or even to myself. I am happy with the mystery. One thing I do not understand is the biblical description of a God who plans to kill everyone in the days of Noah and then to save everyone by killing his own son to protect people from God's own anger and unforgiving nature and yet God is love. I am sorry if that offends anyone but I truly do not understand it. One thing I would suggest is just because someone has a title, or is in ministry, or has degrees, does not make them anymore able to define God any better than the rest of us. I guess God being partly a mystery is one way of keeping us all on a level playing field. If that makes me stupid or whatever in the eyes of others then so being it. They do say one person's religion is another person's belly laugh. That is just life, but I recommend keeping your own counsel on these things. I am sure your just fine Marko. Its great to have you join us. Pete
  23. Welcome David. Unorthodox thinking is welcome around here.
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