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PaulS

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Everything posted by PaulS

  1. G'day KT, Hope this forum can offer you more. Cheers Paul
  2. Trump's tightened considerably whilst Biden has drifted out a little (Sportsbest Australia). Are the bookies just trying to cover their bets or is sentiment demonstrating Trump's improved chances of 4 more years?
  3. I said earlier that "poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it. Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them. I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be". With nearly 20% of your population living in poverty, to me it seems their choices about moving are very limited. It would seem 1/5th of your population can't change states or counties even if they desperately wanted to. They simply can't afford it whilst living in poverty.
  4. On 8/17/2020 at 9:49 PM, you said: "You seem to miss that Jesus' focus on the Jews was one thing but as Ehrman shows his parables speak of pagans participating in the Kingdom. So if true, then he took it for granted that Gentiles would share the Kingdom." On 8/18/2020 at 7.53am, I said: "Which parables from Mark, the earliest gospel?" You then said "I gave you the reference above". So it was any reference to Mark, that you said you had provided, that I was looking for. No problem - you seem to have misread or misunderstood what I was asking. I had also been making the point wh
  5. I think rather than have to change one's thinking about tributes to people who fought to keep black people enslaved, I would prefer those who feel these tributes need to be displayed, change their thinking. So it seems we are at a impasse where the only answers each 'side' can give is for the other 'side' to change their thinking. That was my pint - not as bad as the US. You certainly seem more divided and more aggrieved than the present situation in Australia. Yes, very poor social distancing which partly led to a resurgence in Victoria. The only thing that I think saved Australia
  6. To the contrary Joseph, some of the best scholarly work done on the bible has resulted in not looking at the bible collaboratively but rather trying to look at the individual writers on their merits, in their own particular societal and culture settings, at different moments throughout history. Matthew is acknowledged as having different influences than Mark. This is important and cannot be overlooked when discussing what 'the' NT means. It just doesn't stand to reason that these must be viewed collaboratively, or more to the point, viewed collaboratively in all that they say. Getting to t
  7. I don't think you actually provided any parables of Mark as quoted by Ehrman. You said you did. That's what I was trying to clarify because to me, there are none (other than calling the lady at the well a dog). So I was confused why you were saying that Ehrman was pointing to parables in Mark. I don't think I misread the Prophets on the Kingdom and I'm not the slightest upset with the biblical Paul - he is who he is. I hold no particular opinion of his character. He is a character of history who plays a part in the bible. The Prophets answer the question quite clearly for me - t
  8. Why do you 'have' to? Because it won't harmonize if you don't? You don't entertain the notion that Matthew, following Mark and living in a more gentile community, might have softened the message somewhat? Not in Mark he didn't. I don't think that's an omission. I would lean toward Matthew, with a more gentile audience, adding such a story. I know when I use the word 'all' I sometimes don't actually mean everybody in the world, but rather the audience to which I am talking. It is in this context that I can easily imagine Jesus only referring to the Jews in his audience as t
  9. If we applied that mindset pre-civil war, then I guess blacks would still be slaves. What about changing your thinking and saying to yourself "If it makes my brother feel more engaged and less downtrodden, then I will be happy to make the change". It should be pretty easy just to change how you think. We (Australia) haven't been having riots, demolishing of monuments, police teargassing our people, or military moving in to maintain peace. So, maybe a bit more divided than Australia presently. But thanks for the invite. Revisiting the US is on my to do list, but there are also lots
  10. So just avoid the town square or other high-profile parts of the city such monuments are graced with? I would suggest it's not the 'looking' at such a tribute that offends one but rather it is the thought process that went behind its installation and continued presence, that has many people saying its time has come. Quite divided thought it would seem based on the political opinions shared. The great diversity or the overwhelming majority? Whites are the overwhelming majority so it isn't unreasonable to expect that their views may carry more weight in general than the minorit
  11. I can't see where you have quoted parables from Mark as evidence that Jesus thought gentiles would share the Kingdom. Could you point them out again please - I just can't see any (either in the thread or in Mark itself). We are now just repeating our assertions. I think you misread the Prophets, particularly Isaiah, and align Jesus with a message that was not 'known for all'. The kingdom was for more than the Jews in the sense that gentiles would be defeated, the powers that be overthrown, and those remaining (following judgement and destruction) could come to the god of Isra
  12. It is most likely that later gospel authors such as Matthew and Luke, who had an element of gentile audiences, would have added gentile-friendly stories about Jesus to fit their own personal beliefs. As I have mentioned, these stories simply don't exist in Mark, our earliest Gospel, that Matthew and Luke build on.
  13. You are saying something that you interpret them as saying.
  14. Areas populated by Jews. Jews and gentiles didn't mix. It's a stretch to think that all of a sudden there are crowds of them all co-mingling.
  15. Which parables from Mark, the earliest gospel? I think it is much more likely, and would indeed appear to be the case, that the very few references to gentiles in the kingdom mentioned in Matthew & Luke may simply be the authors own view - later stories that simply don't marry up with the vast majority of the reported actions of Jesus? But what you add to that was Jesus thought the good news was for all. That is clearly not demonstrated in the gospels and it is not in accordance with the Prophets. Agreed, but where we differ is why he focused on the Jews. I think the e
  16. No, you added your understanding of what you think they were saying. After. Following the destruction and desolation of the powers that subjected Israel. No, your posts demonstrate your opinions of what Bart and others have written. They are you interpretations essentially. I think they are mistaken.
  17. The Mark examples? What, the single story where Jesus likens the gentile woman to a dog? What other Markan examples are you drawing on to conclude an emphasis on a global mission being in accordance with Jesus' teaching? And in our earlier sources of Mark there was no command to preach the gospel to the world. This seems to be a later edition. I wonder why. All men meaning all Jews. That's how they were referring to God's people. I disagree. I think one has to try and thread that together rather than just accept the relatively obvious - Jesus wasn't interested in preachi
  18. I don't disregard scholars but unlike you, I don't think they are right on all their speculations. Different scholars at different times range from pinpoint accuracy to pure speculation and guesswork. To say their speculation is more grounded is giving them way too much credit sometimes. I think it's a bit naive to say because they are a scholar that they are always right (or are more grounded than an amateur). Much of the field of this work is speculative. I also think, as I have mentioned before, that you read things into scholars like Ehrman that they aren't necessarily thinking o
  19. I just think you're making it too hard for yourself. if Jesus was interested in sharing the Kingdom with the gentiles, he would have said so. He didn't. He never did. He never preached to them, when he so easily could have. To say his 'focus' was on the Jews because in 3 or 4 years of Ministry he couldn't preach one message to the gentiles seems a stretch to me. To me it seems much clearer that he wasn't interested in gentiles, and for good reason. They weren't God's chosen people.
  20. They don't say it's not either, and the rest of their sayings certainly point toward it. This is what I mean about reading into Ehrman - because he doesn''t make it a definite conclusion, you assumed he wasn't thinking that way, and I disagree. I don't think that is a question, I think it is pretty clear, but I understand you're not convinced.
  21. I don't find that at all, but I can see how others do, particularly if they view Christianity through a Pauline lens, which I think has long been the 'classical' take on Jesus and Christianity. The parable can (probably should) be read as the religious Jews being spurned and instead, the 'lesser' of God's people being invited. This seems to be a theme of Jesus' ministry and is further pointed out in Luke where the same parable has the invitation being extended particularly to the "poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame", evidencing explicit concern for the "poor and the outcasts", ag
  22. After the Kingdom has come and enemies have been overthrown. Once the Kingdom has arrived. Prophets like Isaiah say that also - the horrible ending is for the powers that subjugate Israel. They were to be overthrown and destroyed. 'Innocent' individuals so to speak will survive if they aren't against the God of Israel. These are the ones who will 'flock to learn' etc.
  23. I think the devil is in the detail. Israel's prophets did not mean salvation in the same context as Paul to the gentiles. Indeed, is the word salvation directed at the gentiles in Isaiah? No. The salvation that any of the prophets may have referring to for non-Jews was that gentiles got to exist after the Kingdom came if they capitulated to the God of Israel. Paul on the other hand, and definitely not in line with the prophets, was preaching salvation to gentiles by belief in Jesus. Totally different. Which Jesus sayings did Jesus indeed refer to non-Jews entering the Kingdom? Whi
  24. So are you talking about the quote ""Paul took seriously the words of the prophets that at the end of time God's salvation would extend not only to his people, Israel, but to all the nations of the earth.................the word of salvation, therefore, was not only for the people of Israel, but for all people."? If so, I addressed it in the paragraph that I wrote following where I said I thought you were reading too much into Bart. At the time I wrote "At the end of time, not before it. And at the end, they will be saved if they capitulated to the God of Israel. They were not being 'i
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