NORM

If that were the case (embracing the G-d of Jesus); then you would be Jewish and not Christian. Reading through the subsequent posts, however, I discover that what you really mean is: Can one be a Christian without accepting the modern Christian (Paul's version) Biblical worldview? So, there are two answers: 1. From your perspective; no. 2. From those who embrace the Jesus movement that took place within the apostolic JEWISH church of the first two decades after the death of Jesus; yes. NORM

From The Epilogue: NORM

Nicely said, Paul. Call it...learning to fly: NORM

I would be interested in where you are getting your information. I wouldn't say that conservative churches are "flourishing." I think all Christian organizations are shrinking. Perhaps conservative Christian churches are shrinking at a slower rate than "traditional" liberal (as opposed to progressive - there is a difference) congregations. I think the reason is - reason! Liberal leaning churches embrace science in greater numbers than do conservative churches. In the more traditional, conservative churches, the focus is on the miracles, mysteries and ancient promises of eternal life, gold-plated streets in heaven, etc.. The conservative church has also remained the last bastion of long-held belief in the "sin" of homosexuality and the wrongness of equality among the sexes - one of the few places on earth left to seek validation of these old stereotypes. You know; where s*x is a dirty word. Perhaps the bump in attendance is the sound of folks hanging on to their prejudices? I think that the only hope for Christianity today is to embrace a non-theistic, love-centered philosophy based on the teachings of Jesus. Welcome to the Forum, BoundSacrifice. NORM

I regret that Paul beat me it, but I too will miss your commentary in the forum. While I understand the difficulty in moderating a religious themed forum (herding cats comes to mind), nevertheless, I wish that we had a bit freer hand to get to the meat of these issues. Unfortunately, that almost always involves ruffled feathers and wounded pride. You will be missed, my friend. BTW, do you ever post on Theology Web (http://www.theologyw...pus/content.php)? I am NormATive over there. As a non-theist, I am only allowed to post in the Apologetics section (and be seen by Christians), so drop by sometime. How will I know it's you? Cheers! NORM

This weekend we made a family outing of going to see the recent cinematic interpretation of Victor Hugo's classic Les Miserable. It is very close in content to the original Broadway stage play (in fact, the original actor - Colm Wilkinson - who portrayed Jean Valjean on Broadway, portrays the benevolent Bishop of Digne in the film). Now, one element of the story that Hollywood managed to purge from their various and sundry adaptations over the years (the one starring Gerard Depardieu comes to mind) was the rather harsh criticism of organized religion that was an underlying theme of Hugo's work. This element is very evident in the current motion picture starring Hugh Jackman (Wolverine???). My point in posting all of this within this thread is that to me, the message of Les Miserables - the true way to worship G-d is not to follow a rigid set of rules and dogma (Javert), but rather to simply love your fellow man (Bishop / Valjean) - is what I take away from the Progressive Christianity movement. NORM

The sheer horror of the recent school shooting in Connecticut has already impacted our culture for the better in some ways. This evening, our family had a REAL discussion on the issue of g*ns and g*n control. Where previously, there were bitter divides and heated arguments over two political stances, we all came together around the idea that the time has come to commit ourselves toward real reform of our mental health system, responsible g*n ownership and reasonable g*n laws. We all pledged individually to contacting our local representatives to share our concerns and volunteer for organizations that can help. I imagine there are similar events happening in families all over America. I see that as a hopeful sign. NORM

I normally cringe every time I hear a Christian describing how Jesus "fulfilled" the Law as though that means it is no longer valid. I like what you've posted here, and is how I've come to understand what the story of Jesus was all about. NORM

Right. Modern. You're forgetting that Judaism is over 5,000 years old! NORM

There are 99 of these Laws that deal with sacrificing animals in the Temple. So, yeah; it would be impossible. Also, there are at least a couple dozen that deal with how to use a mikvah (ritual bath house). Most people don't even know what one is, let alone have access to one. If one had to point to a single moment when Jews ceased being Jews and became Christians, it would be at the time of this alleged Council described in Acts. Out of 613 Laws, only three escaped the cutting room floor: The new members were not even required to be circumcised - a very fundamental commandment (even to this day) for Jews. Also, I would hardly call these minimal dietary restrictions as "keeping Kosher." Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is difficult to put her back. I think it is natural that Christians, over the centuries, drifted further and further from the fundamentals of Judaism. For, Judaism at its heart is an Eastern religion. Christianity is fully Western in philosophy and character. The whole notion of a literal heaven and hell come directly from Greek mythology - NOT Judaism. In fact, belief in an afterlife is a relatively modern notion in Jewish religion. And the apocalyptic message of modern Christianity is about as far from Judaism as you can philosophically get. NORM

The first time I took it, I came in as Unitarian Universalist. I think if I were to take it now, I would probably be considered an atheist, if there is such a designation. NORM

Hi Ron, I am enjoying this thread. Thanks for posting. Whether or not Jesus actually said these words, - and I think there is considerable evidence to the contrary - I think that the author of this Gospel was indeed trying to fashion a Jesus that was palatable to the observant Jew, yet left open to debate the strict adherence to The Law. I think there was a movement (Paul) within the Jewish community to abandon the thing that made Jews stick out most [annoyingly so?] to other people; strict observance of The Law. Being Jewish myself, I can tell you that STRICT observance of The Law is a bit of a challenge. I spent some time living with a relative who was Orthodox, and it was no picnic [OY, the washing of sooooo many plates!!]. Don't get me wrong; I think the prayers and ritual symbolism are beautiful testimonies to a lovingly fashioned and ancient faith tradition, but to the average human; it is a bit much. I think that the early Jewish organizers of the emergent Christian faith were savvy enough to realize that the spoiled, wealthy Romans whom they wished to enlist (probably for their money) would NEVER submit to ritual bathing, shunning women during menstruation, and all of the dietary, moral and legal restrictions put upon the faithful. Ron, I think that you are on an exciting tack, and I look forward to further development of this thread. NORM

You might enjoy this novel: It's really a quite charming book, and not as offensive to "normal" Christians as you might imagine. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did when I read it. At the time, I was still a believing Christian. NORM

I think that we live in a time in the world when religion can be defined by the individual on a level never before imagined. No longer is the Christian stuck within the narrowly defined parameters of one of the "major" denominations. True religious experience transcends these artificial barriers. I celebrate your liberation! Personally, I define Christianity within the language of my ancestral Jewish heritage (too complex to go into detail for this thread). I think that Jesus embraced an intellectual and humanistic version of Judaism that eschewed the religiosity of his day. I think that Jesus was a disciple of the Jewish reformer, Hillel. I embrace the teachings of Jesus in this light. However, unlike Jesus, I am non-theistic. NORM

Well, one can more easily restrict access to the most destructive of weapons than one can legislate societal culture. I think, as SOMA has pointed out, that the subject of violence in film and video games is a diversion from the real issue; banning assault weapons. Another thing to consider: popular culture portrayed in film and entertainment tends to lag societal norms. IOW, a culture obsessed with guns is going to be reflected in the motion pictures and video games produced. Hollywood and television sell their product to a willing audience. Rarely do they LEAD culture (with the possible exceptions of smoking and the use of condoms). NORM

AMEN!!! For the life of me, I just can't figure out why some (evangelical, mostly) Christians seem to be the loudest supporters of gun owner's rights to possess weapons of war. And, here I thought Christianity was the religion of peace. NORM

Honestly, I never really thought about it. I read Charlie Brown cartoons as a child, but didn't care for the Charlie character - not a fan of bullying, and often thought the portrayal of CB was depressing. Even non-violent bullying can cause real pain. I played piano as I child, so I identified with the Schroeder character more. It is one of Krauthammer's favorite scapegoats. He truly believes that welfare is mostly undeserved and has very little sympathy for those on the other side of fortune. Despite his disability, Mr. Krauthammer is quite well off. NORM

Seriously? That's funny. Now I know why I don't watch cable news. NORM

I think that the answer to your question lies in what I think the nature of religion is to the human mind. We seek that which confirms what we already believe to be true. There is no greater confirmation for the rightness of our views than that the Creator of the Universe agrees with us! NORM

Neon, I am happy that you are conflicted!! My son really enjoys these types of games, and I tried my best (as a father) to force myself to like them as well, so that I could share in something my son finds exciting. But, I always felt conflicted (good description) about the act of shooting people - even though intellectually, I know it is just pretend. The realism of these games only heightens that feeling. My son is now receiving military training in the US Airforce. I hope and pray that he never has to find out what REAL gun violence is like. There is something in my son that is different from me that I think may explain why some people can play these types of games without conflict, and others cannot. My daughter is studying evolutionary biology and thinks that there is an answer in our evolutionary past. (She, btw, absolutely HATES guns and would never play a first-person shooter type video game). I've asked her to send me some scientific articles on this subject. NORM

I read Krauthammer's column in the Washington Post on a regular basis, and in my opinion, his embracing of the gun-loving, conservative movement is in line, ironically, with his comments in this article. By his own admission, over the course of his journalistic career, he has embraced the testosterone-soaked hubris that describes liberalism and social generosity as a weakness and the ruination of American society. Krauthammer's hypocrisy aside, I think that most people can intelligently consume television and motion picture violence without "acting" it out in real life. There are no studies to date of which I am aware that show a causal link between violent video games or movies and actual violence in society. The consensus is that those who commit violent acts are violent of their own accord - they don't need outside stimulation. I would be more interested in learning what makes the Dylan Klebold's of the world killers in the first place. I don't believe that spending afternoons fake-shooting people will lead to shooting people for real. I think that those who find such activity "enjoyable" may perhaps share a common gene (deviant or natural?) with Klebold and his ilk. But, I don't think that banning violent video games or films / television will have any impact on these killers. There are some who suggest that these types of games may be enough of a substitute for the real thing that might actually be preventing more such incidents. I think that limiting access to military assault weapons would be much more effective on these types of individuals. Perhaps they would be just as homicidal with a knife or a baseball bat, but the carnage would naturally be far less. NORM

Dutch, I can't tell from this article what it is you are asking. I am assuming that you mean Piers Morgan? Not sure I understand the reference, because I do not watch cable news programming. Is someone trying to get this person deported? Why? NORM

Rivanna, I hope you stay around. I like your posts. However, if Joseph sees fit to close this thread, as Moderator; this is his prerogative. In light of this, I have some final thoughts on this subject. I have noticed that in the evangelical community, rather than apply political pressure to control dangerous weapons, they are making single-parent homes and lack of parenting skills and morality in the home as the culprit. Here are some interesting statistics regarding the mass shootings since 1999: Other than the most recent shooting (which I think has more to do with mental illness and easy access to semi-automatic weapons), all of the gunmen were from two-parent homes. NORM

Thanks for posting this article, Ron. Amidst all the chatter about gun rights vs gun control, the fact that these most recent spate of shootings involved mentally disturbed individuals was lost in the discussion. NORM

What is really beginning to anger me are the number of Christians in my Facebook community who are becoming apologists for the NRA. Here's what one preacher said: He goes on to say in his Sunday sermon that all we need to do is convert everyone to Christ, and all these problems will go away. We can stockpile assault rifles til the cows come home - if only we have Jesus in our hearts. This sickens me. It minimizes the problems of mental illness and an out of control gun lobby. NORM