NORM

The above excerpt from the article is the only way in which I might consider myself a "Christian." Sadly, there is not a fellowship of such-minded Christians in my experience. As a Jewish person, this confession comes as close to what we might properly term שִׁיחַ‎ (Moshiah) than anything else I've seen in Christian writings. NORM

I believe it was Bob Dylan who said that everyone must get stoned. But, I think he had something entirely different in mind. Seriously, I think the reason some types of religious folk obsess about sex is that they simply aren't getting any. NORM

Thanks, Soma. I've inserted my foot in my mouth so often, my souls required seasoning! NORM

I would respond to them that religion does not require "ultimate truth" to be of value. Only that their faith journey is true to themselves and their circumstances at that point in their lives. NORM

From personal experience, I can tell you that the best advice is to keep out of other parents' business regarding the raising of children - unless, of course, there is abuse. This is particularly true when dealing with religious issues, because of the theist's desire to please the deity. Often, they place importance on the deity above their responsibility to their children. Sadly, no amount of reason will persuade deeply entrenched religious beliefs. NORM

OK, but first you should know that I don't "believe" in evolution. I think it most accurately describes human and animal development. 1. Evolution is a theory, just as is gravitational theory and nuclear theory. 2. Evolution is responsible for our current understanding of how diseases work, and has led to many discoveries in immunology. As a result, there are many millions of people alive today who would otherwise not. 3. Evolution is supported by countless peer reviewed articles, papers, books and research projects. 4. Evolution theory is supported by the Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, National Baptist Convention (USA), Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church (USA), National Baptist Convention of America, African Methodist Episcopal Church, and the Episcopal Church to name just a few. 5. Evolution theory has itself evolved into social reforms which champion freedom of thought, action and being and deliverance from restrictive systems that impose unnecessary restraints on those freedoms. Mr. 1964, with all due respect, you might want to update your case against evolution by about 8 or 9 years. Most of your arguments were answered during the Supreme Court trials concerning Intelligent Design (ID lost, btw) in 2005 and 2006. The YouTube video posted in this thread from the CWRU in Ohio would be a good starting point for you. BTW, it might be of interest for you to learn that at that time, I was on the Intelligent Design side of the debate. I also knew then (as I recognize still), that it was a very real attempt to circumvent peer review and the scientific method and insert Creationism (a theistic worldview) into the school curriculum. At the time, I thought that was a worthwhile goal. NORM

The only people I hear this claim from are theists who have an axe to grind with the concept of evolution. I know of no one within the scientific community who views Darwin as G-d or a god. I am thankful, however, for the medical breakthroughs that are a direct result of Mr. Darwin's bravery in the face of what must have been enormous pressure and condemnation from the religious community of his day. From what I understand, Darwin withheld his discovery from publication because he was aware of the immense controversy and intense anger the truth of his findings would bring. So, it would appear that you are not unique in your struggle with these matters. NORM

Welcome to the Forum, CP. I read the chapter you referenced in your opening post. Nice bit of writing! Hell is only of benefit if one believes there is such a thing as Original Sin. In fact, without out it; OS is fairly meaningless. I think the late Christian church invented the place, fashioning it from bits and pieces of Greek references to Hades. Greek philosophy - particularly that of Plato - is very dualistic. Therefore, Heaven must have a corollary; Hell. The original group of Jesus' followers were Jewish (like me!), and did not have a well defined concept of an afterlife. Judaism has always been focused on the present and not apocalyptic in the same way modern (post 3rd century CE) Christianity evolved. In our faith expression, we celebrate Yom Kippur (you Gentiles call it the Day of Atonement). This is the point in time within the Jewish calendar that we recognize that G-d has already forgiven our sinfulness. The whole concept of a creator-god punishing it's creation like a little boy on a sidewalk burning ants with a magnifying glass repulses me. I hope you find this Forum a place of intellectual discovery. NORM

We live in an old, well established neighborhood with plenty of children who stop by for Trick or Treat. It's fun for us to interact in a fun way with the children - and, quite honestly; enjoy a little bit of silliness to boot! I normally sit on the front porch with warm cider and a very large bowl of tasty treats (full size!). It's one of the few times we get to see some of our more reclusive neighbors. Other than that, it has no significance - at least in any kind of "spiritual" way. NORM

I don't think that holiness is a descriptor one could assign an entity such as the Prime Mover, or Creator. I think, as other have stated in this thread, that to make that claim creates a dualism that does more harm to creation than good. By making G-d holy, it sets up a classification of "things that are holy and things that are not," or "persons who are holy and persons who are unholy." I don't think that helps anyone. NORM

That's correct, matteoam. Jewish people are focused on the here and now. Kabbalism within Judaism is viewed, by the way, the same way Pentecostalism is viewed among Protestant Christians and Opus Dei is among Catholic Christians. Children under the age of 12 are discouraged from reading Kabbalistic writings in Shul, because they are so esoteric, and can cause confusion. NORM

A point of clarification: I do not mean that Jewish people do not believe in salvation - just that salvation comes through G-d alone (Yom Kippur), and not through the Messiah. NORM

I think that part of the problem with "interpreting" the Messiah, is that Christians and Jewish people look to the Messiah for different things. Christians are seeking salvation from original sin and eternal damnation / punishment (concepts not supported in Judaism). Jewish folks are looking to redeem the world (the physical earth, people and animals). According to Jewish teaching, Moshiach is a human being (not divine) - a descendent of David - imbued with insight from G-d with which to usher in a time of reconciliation and peace on Earth. NORM

Having converted to Judaism, I feel confident in answering this question, Paul Basically, the Tanakh says that Moschiac (Messiah) will: 1. Rebuild the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). 2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). 3. Usher in an era of world peace, end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) 4. Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "G-d will be King over all the world ― on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). Jesus did NONE of these things, therefore, is NOT the Messiah according to scripture. Furthermore, The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian Testament, Jesus traces his ancestry from his mother (with no earthly father - according to modern Christianity). Most of the Jewish folks I know and hang with allow Rabbi Maimonides speak for them concerning Jesus in regards to the Christian claim: FWIW, Maimonides also taught that it is considered a sin to criticize Christians for believing in Jesus as their G-d. The above criticism is leveled at Jewish people who converted to Christianity (mostly out of fear of persecution). NORM

Well stated, Soma! I think that a religion or philosophy worth having is one that is allowed to evolve as our knowledge increases, and to acknowledge that we don't have all of the answers. Worldviews that dig in their heels and resist change because they believe they have found "truth" are only useful for those within the walls of their confinement. There is an old joke that goes something like this: G-d is conducting a tour of recent arrivals to Heaven. He leads them to a long, long hallway with many rooms with no doors on the outside, and people are wandering in and out of each one - over a hundred thousand! Each one, G-d tells the group, contains members of the world's religions. There are Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Shintoists, Sikhs, Hindus, Taoists, and even Pagans, Agnostics and Atheists. As everyone expresses approval at the inclusiveness of the divine being, they pass by the only room with its doors closed tightly. There is a huge sign posted on the door that says "Quite Please." Someone in the group asks G-d, "Who is in there?" "Oh," G-d laughs, "we have to be very quiet around that group - they think they are the only one's here!" NORM

From my perspective, an "organized" PC that ... would utterly defeat the purpose of this forum. I think our purpose is to express freely our thoughts and ideas concerning the place of human religious thought in our society and in our personal lives. Anything more than that would develop the same problems that plague most other organized faith groups. I think that religious thought belongs to the individual. I also think that whatever your personal belief (or non-belief) system, if you do not seek to become a positive force for good in human society, then you are, as the writer of the epistles declares; "a noisy gong." NORM

The thing about these socially redeeming types of churches, I've found, is that you only get out of them what you put into them. To attend a UU or other PC church without participating, and merely observing, can indeed be quite bland. The pastor of our local UU church is also the chair of the local "green money" economy, very active in historic preservation and in homeless advocacy. It's more about the doing rather than the watching. I attend a Jewish synagogue in our town. Without mitzvah, it would be quite boring. Of course, that's just me. Personally, I don't seek out "spirituality" when looking for a faith-group. NORM

Growing up, my best friend was Roman Catholic, and he was one of the many altar boys (this was a rather large, inner-city church). My family was Baptist, so it was an interesting relationship. Both of our respective families believed in the infallibility of their chosen faith expression. My friend and I reasoned this couldn't be possible, since both my parents and his parents were equally adamant in their dogmatic stances, and both were "good people." I recall most vividly the vastly different approach to Communion / The Eucharist Mass. In our Baptist church, Communion was treated with solemnity, but in a non-ritualistic way. How, you say, could a church ritual be non-ritualistic? Well, my parents were the ones who prepared the communion meal (yeast-free wafers and Welch's grape juice), and no one but them knew which Sunday communion would be served - thus, it wasn't a ritual since no one but my parents knew when it would take place. It could happen two weeks in a row, or only one Sunday in a month - or EVEN on a Wednesday evening! The preamble prior to the communion ceremony - er; meal - made it clear that this was symbolic and in NO WAY the actual body and blood of Christ (i.e.; NOT CATHOLIC). In my friend's church, the Mass was MOST DEFINITELY a holy ritual. It was ALWAYS served each Saturday and Sunday. The procession included flags, banners, censors, small cymbals, large Bibles held high overhead and one of the most ornate and elaborate monstrance I have ever seen! It took FOUR high-school age altar boys to wrestle it to the front. It was HUGE, and the little chariot that housed the Host was solid GOLD!!! The preamble prior to the Mass made it clear that the Host and Wine was in reality the actual physical presence of Christ (thanks, Steve, for explaining the difference between Christ in the Host and not Jesus). CLEARLY this was to be taken quite seriously. Being the adventurous types, my friend and I risked eternal damnation and siphoned off some wine from one of the barrels stored in the cellar on occasion. In an interesting twist, we discovered that my grandfather was keeping a secret from us. His parents were Jewish. In fact, his father was a Rabbi in a New York City synagogue. LOL! This rocked my parent's fundamentalist world, for sure. I no longer believe in either Christian "systems," but have embraced a non-theistic expression of Judaism (a nod to my dearly departed grandpa). I relate the above observations to make the point that we all come to G-d in our own unique (however ensconced we may be in our particular institutions) ways, and that all are acceptable, I think, should there actually be a deity paying attention. NORM

PC for me is a welcoming community of free thinkers with whom I can work through my own philosophical, spiritual wanderings and not experience the harsh judgment I encounter in other "Christian" forums. While I no longer identify as Christian myself (I am more closely aligned with Judaism), I come from a Christian background, so I have a tendency to view the world through the lens of my early indoctrination. No matter how far afield from traditional Christianity I veer, I will always come back to those wonderful parables I memorized in Sunday School class. NORM

Of course, the ultimate picker and chooser was Thomas Jefferson: http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ NORM

Heh! My favorite line from that episode: PRIEST: Are you offended as a Jew? JERRY: No, I'm offended as a comedian! NORM

Eric, "Evolving Christian" is a perfect designation for your spiritual journey. I too consider myself as evolving - an ongoing process that allows me to move through life experiences in a way that allows me to celebrate change rather than fear losing something. A little story regarding the comparison to Judaism: During my conversion from Christianity to Judaism, I had a wonderful Hebrew instructor who survived the Shoah (what non-Jewish persons refer to as the Holocaust) as a young boy in the Warsaw Ghetto. He recalls how the Rabbis in the community would call out to G-d to rescue them from their suffering. Many were convinced that the Shoah would bring about the much anticipated Moshiach. But, he never came, and six million Jewish citizens were exterminated. "Where was G-d," they asked? Wasn't the whole point of obeying the Law and remaining true to the faith in order to enjoy the protection of an all powerful G-d? The experience of the Shoah forced many in the Jewish community - and those who experienced it first hand - to come to the conclusion; NO!! This was a turning point in Jewish thinking, according to my instructor. He said that this experience caused a renewed interest in the great, humanistic teacher Rabbi Hillel (110 BCE - 10 CE), who famously said regarding this very issue: This evolution of the Jewish faith is responsible for the rise of socially aware Judaism. And it continues to evolve! A new trend for Bar and Bat Mitzvah is to do a series of mitzvah (good deeds) as preparation for the ceremony. In the past, the Bar / Bat Mitzvah was all about personal and spiritual growth. My friend and neighbor's daughter held a garage sale where 100% of the proceeds went to a local charity that provides financial support to families of children struggling with cancer or some other life-threatening disease. She raised nearly $800 dollars as part of her Bat Mitzvah goal of raising $1500.00 for her charity. I think this is the right kind of evolution for religion in America - and the world! Yemot HaMashiach NORM

Hi Kathy, Not to sound like a broken record, but I think you would be well advised to visit your local synagogue. As I've mentioned on other threads, I found acceptance among the Jewish community. They are quite OK with my non-theism. I know a few in the community who profess atheism. I discovered that what I really admired about Jesus was his passion for a humanistic and egalitarian understanding of Judaism. Of course, according to the "Christian" Bible, Jesus believed in a supernatural G-d, but it didn't seem to be the center of his focus. I think that given a choice, Jesus would reject our modern version of Christianity. I think that you will only engender hostility with the epithet of "Christian Atheist." Jewish Atheist has already been vetted with success. NORM

I agree with Paul in that I don't think that Progressive Christianity - and this forum in particular - is intended as a "call to action" that others seem to want. It is, however, a sounding board for thoughts and ideas about a subject in which we all have interest. This is why it is so important that it be all inclusive. The "truth" is an elusive gem that can only be gleaned through a collective prism of viewpoints and ideas. We need the perspective of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam and even Atheism in order to glimpse the eight-fold path, or ground of being, or four spiritual laws. My faith expression at this point in my life can be best described as Humanistic Judaism. I am non-theist, and I think that Christianity in its present condition is ill-suited to meet the challenges of our current world. The majority of Christians (at least here in the US) seem to be more concerned with corralling "Truth" rather than pursuing a healing path for a broken world. I used to attend a Christian fellowship because it provided a source of funding and like-minded individuals with whom I could engage in social activism in my community. However, as I evolved my thinking about the person of Jesus, and other sacred cows of the faith, suddenly it didn't matter how often I volunteered to run the soup kitchen, or read books to disadvantaged youth, but whether or not I believed in a resurrected Christ. In an attempt to wrap our thinking up into neatly tied bows, we miss the opportunity to make our lives matter on this earth. So, my advice to you would be to damn the orthodoxy - full steam ahead! NORM

Hello Amy, It sounds to me that you are attending church for the proper reasons. I would advise you continue and disregard your feelings of hypocrisy. I can guarantee that there are many folks within that very congregation who do not believe every word of the creeds they recite. They too probably feel they are hypocritical. One could start a hypocrite's club and meet for breakfast or lunch - perhaps during the sermon portion of the Sunday worship ceremony. I was in a similar circumstance as you a few years back. Our church sprouted fundamentalists and quickly died (it was previously a Swedish intellectual church). I miss the group of friends we had to go with on service projects in the community. Now I volunteer for civic groups. As far as religion goes, I'm currently a humanistic Jewish person (non-theist). Cheers! NORM