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murmsk

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Everything posted by murmsk

  1. I might replace the word never with seldom . In MLK's "Letter From The Birmingham Jail" he expressed his profound disappointment in the white churches response to the civil rights movement. I should have clarified that the group I was speaking to were in their mid to late 20's past the time when they have begun to think for themselves. The homophobia of those through high school especially grade school are more a function of their parents as they have not yet begun to question. I do agree this is a societal problem not limited to the church. My comments are aimed at the church because that is my audience. We each (both individually and institutionally) are asked to make moral judgments. In my estimation the moderate church is guilty of failing to take a stand and letting our conservative brothers and sisters control the Christian response. steve
  2. George I would agree and disagree with this. I think churches are often a reflection of prevailing attitudes and prejudices. T hey can also very much be the cause at least of continence long after general society has moved on. As they are in this case. For example while I was at lunch a few months ago with several friends one of which is closer to my sons age this topic came up. His response was this is your generations issue not ours. We don't care. He further said the only people his age that did care were people who went to church. I don't think we should let churches off the hook quite so easily. They have a responsibility to not only accept ALL people but also must actively call out their brethren when they fall short. I think the church in general has done a poor job of both. steve
  3. I have always had the feeling that the C churches stance had more to do with growing the church from within. More babies leads to more Catholics. It also explains their insistence on bringing up the children Catholic. The Catholic church seldom The old joke while studying reproduction in medical school was: "what do you call people who practice the rhythm method?...................... parents steve
  4. The issue of 12 or 11 or 13 is that there are many changes going on in the child at that time physically, intellectually and emotionally. I remember watching in utter amazement my daughter one day switch back and forth between being a teen to an adolescent sometimes several times a minute. One second she was splashing in the wadding pool with her younger brothers the next second she was worried about how she looked to the neighbor boy the next second it was back to being a child. The more mature girl was trying to get out but she wasn't quite ready to give up the carefree child. Sadly/happily my little girl grew up and became the woman she is today. That is the time where they become themselves not just extensions of their parents. I think the religious experience changes because of view. As a child things are exactly as they appear. God exists because mom and dad say so. There is no reason to question it. I am not sure they would have the ability to question it. At some point (around the age of 12) the child develops the ability to notice inconsistencies between what they have always held as "true " and how things appear. I truly think this is at the crux of why Christianity is in decline. When you become cognizant of these inconsistencies he/she either buries his/her head in the sand and becomes a fundamentalist, lives with the stress, quits, or with much work and angst finds something that makes sense. steve
  5. We went to church and Sunday school every week through my entire childhood but I never felt connected..... It was something my parents made me do. We learned all the stories, creeds and what it meant to be a "good Christian". I knew I wasn't a good Christian and frankly didn't care I didn't have guilt or fear just wasn't important. During confirmation class I can remember someone asking (might have been me) if the people of africa would go to heaven the pastor said "No" the only way to heaven was through giving ones life to Jesus. Then I asked why would Jesus do that to someone. I don't remember the response. This man later left his MS suffering wife with his highschool aged children for the organist and moved to Fl. I had no sense of belonging no sense of believing no guilt or angst. Just sort of a bore. I have always had a sense of God tho and actually have a sense of God active in my life. Just not "Church" connected. My wife was a church goer so when we got married I started to go too. I is a liberal Congregational Church that I could survive with some heavy editing. The folks allowed open questions. Kinda softened me up a bit. About 3 years ago the minister started a discussion group that used the "Living The Questions" DVD and holy crap people who thought like me!! As my understanding of Jesus's message improved so did my faith. (Faith as in trust not faith as in belief). So I have never had a singular point of faith but rather it has been a progression brought on by finding ideas that fit me. steve
  6. Well said except it could have stopped at "....the many find their unity..... period.
  7. For me pluralism is the realization that God could have and probably has reveled himself/herself to more than one. It is more that simply being tolerant (or difference as is being described) because tolerance assumes that there is something to be tolerant of. I find it a bit arrogant to think that God has been revealed to only one religion that just happens to be my own. ...... Marcus Borg I have no idea what relativism is. steve
  8. Thanks Mike. While the "Conversations with Scripture" series prob isn't right for the group at this time anyway, It is something I have been looking for. Thanks !!! steve
  9. I am looking for a book for our discussion group at church. The last few books we have read have been squarely progressive in nature. We are tiring of the combative reteric of all the things "church " has done wrong. We get it. I am looking for a book that in ordinary language discusses a spiritual life. One that anyone from traditional christian to atheist can get something out of. It could be a faith and justice book, a book on equal treatment of all persons, something on pluralism .... Some of my thoughts are: God has a vision by Desmond Tutu Is God Christian R. Kirby Godsey Any ideas? thanks steve
  10. murmsk

    Quips And Quotes

    Any fool can know. The point is to understand. -- Albert Einstein Never accept and be content with unanalyzed assumptions, assumptions about work, about the people, about the church or Christianity. Never be afraid to ask questions about the work we have inherited or the work we are doing. There is no question that should not be asked or that is outlawed. The day we are completely satisfied with what we have been doing; the day we have found the perfect, unchangeable system of work, the perfect answer, never in need of being corrected again, on that day we will know we are wrong, that we have made the greatest mistake of all. -- Vincent J. Donovan Steve
  11. "A New Kind of Christianity" Brian McClaren "What Good is God" Philip Yancey More of a Faith and Justice "What does a Progressive Christian Believe" Delwin Brown
  12. In spite of my comfortableness with the whole petitionary prayer thing... I would ask for prayers that "Gracious Faith" would become the norm rather than the exception steve
  13. For me progressiveness is not having to make excuses, while living in a sense of purpose. I am perfectly comfortable with bible passages that conflict, I no longer feel a clash between my spirituality and science or reason. I don't have to rationalize. steve
  14. Lars and the real girl The Ultimate gift One of the Star Trek movies (help my Riv) The Final Frontier??? It is the one where they go looking for God. Some might call it an atheist movie but to met it shows the problems with the "Man Behind The Curtain" view of God. Several Documentaries " The Bible tells me so" talks about religious bigotry toward GLBT the historic Jesus PBS and ABC specials steve
  15. Id agree with that but I do think technology has the ability to facilitate education which may in turn speedup if not change mindsets. Indecently this works in both directions (positive and negative). steve
  16. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I will check them out. steve
  17. I am looking for a Bible Commentary. All the ones I have looked are might just as well have been written in the 1700's, Are their any Bible Commentaries written from a progressive view point? If not, that might be a good project. steve
  18. As someone who is a member of a progressive church that is trying to learn how to fight the fight so to speak I find these discussions not only useful but critical. If we are going to engage in debate with our conservative cousins and hope to convince anyone it is critical that we fully understand their position and arguments so arguments to these positions can be formulated and practiced. We have to help each other hone our skills. We can't afraid of debate we must learn from it. I just finished reading MLK's "Letter from the Birmingham Jail" Text of letter Several things struck me: In the section where he discusses his disappointment in the moderate white church he says "First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods......" Ask your self are we guilt of this still? We must push the debate with the moderate churches. He goes on to say: "There was a time when the church was very powerful--in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town, the people in power became disturbed and immediately sought to convict the Christians for being "disturbers of the peace" and "outside agitators."' But the Christians pressed on, in the conviction that they were "a colony of heaven," called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, they were big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be "astronomically intimidated." By their effort and example they brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contests. Things are different now. So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church's silent--and often even vocal--sanction of things as they are. But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today's church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust." We should be encouraging this debate. I think what Spong means in his manifesto is that he refuses to spend any time considering their point of view not that he won't try and change it. steve
  19. Phillip Gulley wrote a book on grace that was very good too. " If Grace is true : Why God will save everyone? or something like that. steve
  20. I would add Congregationalist NACCC to the list. The true congregational churches are a mixed bag with some being quite conservative and others quite progressive. United Church of Christ UCC is generally the most progressive denomination from top to bottom. They are the only denomination to have made it completely through the ordination of GBTG. Episcopals can be progressive. They too are working their way through the ordination of GLBT but are still in a bit of turmoil. Some Disciples of Christ "Christian" Churches are pretty progressive . I would visit and ask for a meeting with the pastor then ask where he sits and where the rest of the congregation sits. Ya have to ask both questions steve
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