glintofpewter

We love threes so pointing to many others is appropriate, Larry. Another take would be to connect the Hebrew God, the historical Jesus, and something for the post-Jesus world.

We are on schedule to be in Helena, Montana, in time for grand daughter's due date August 24 but grand dtr arrived this morning. We'll be looking for a new home while there. Dutch

Some quotes from "The Shack" God has no expectations but waits with expectancy Papa(God) is speaking Responsibilities and expectations are the basis for shame and guilt and judgment....because I have no expectations you will never disappoint me. ...What I do have is a constant and living expectancy in our relationship....To the degree that you resort to expectations and responsibilities, to that degree, you neither know me nor trust me. Mack, if you and I are friends there is an expectancy that exists ... an expectancy of being together....That expectancy has no concrete definition: it is alive and dynamic and everything that emerges ... is an unique gift." ~ Wm. Paul Young, The Shack

Perhaps my journeys were not as urgent as yours. When an accident in surgery caused my daughter to have a grande mal seizure and spinal meningitis and a long hospital stay I wanted to know where the idea of evil came from.(Because I saw no evil in the terrible accident.) Specifically I wanted to know what others thought the Bible said about evil. I learned many things but the best understanding is that the Garden of Eve story is not about disobedience but about growing up into adulthood. So the Garden is not where evil started. Seek out other passages in the Bible that reveal a mothering God and a nurturing father God. Especially this text from Jeremiah. This God is not vindictive. Jeremiah 29:11-13New International Version (NIV) 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. During captivity the Hebrews were trying to figure out why it happened. So they thought it must have happened because they were disobedient and they wrote scripture with a vindictive God in mind. But this is twisted. If you say God is the source of everything that happens that does not mean the good things are rewards and bad things are punishments. I think Paul's right in saying that teaching a vindictive God gives power to those in charge. In the past the church and civil governments have relied on our fear of God's judgment to keep us in line. Certainly those who want to turn America into the church-state it never was want to bring back a vindictive God to guilt us into what they think is right behavior. Read "The Shack" by Wm Paul Young. Don't let anything stop you from this. I will mail my well worn copy if necessary. Read "The Shack" by Wm Paul Young. Don't let anything stop you from this. Dutch

Sometimes the answer is simple for one who is listening.

I agree with Paul. and would add that there are genetic inclinations which influence the development of values. Each decision will have a different degree of importance assigned to different values.

minsocal, great to read your words again Dutch

1. Rom said I am the intersection of causes which cannot be fully known. That which is novel is a good candidate for being independent of cause but it cannot be fully known. 2. Rom said Dutch said I forgot to give you credit for the word responsible. 3. Rom said 4. Dutch said I was using the "rom" sense of the word 'responsible' and forgot to put single quotes around it. It is not my word. I did not use the word moral. 5. Rom said Dutch said I don't have an hour to spare. Share what you think is useful. I cannot behave randomly but random events may influence my choices and behaviors. I can increase my choices through spiritual, psychological and physical practices which to whatever extent allow me to see unconscious causes. 6. Rom said Dutch said a: I am not "at" the intersection of causes. My being is the ongoing intersecting of causes, which cannot be fully known b: Chance and novelty are as close as I can get in understanding one aspect of evolution. Whether a chance or novel event is part of that iintersecting causes or events I call "myself" cannot be fully known. 7. Rom said Dutch Complex organisms have more choices from which to choose and they make those choices, whether it is a single person choosing chocolate ice cream or a school staff working as a whole to reject a class of students. 8. Rom said Dutch said Exactly 9.Rom said Dutch said I am not Laplace. LaPlace is irrelvelant. My discussion is not about f_w_. #10 Rom said Dutch said See #1 above

As I said in the previous post "cannot be fully known". As I said in the previous post I am not talking about free will.

Rom, I will consider you post as a whole later. As I said I am the intersection of causes that cannot be fully known. I think the important question is whether there is the possibility for novelty, something new.

Rom, There are too many fragments in our conversation. I made an error in cutting and pasting that led to confusion and I feel you haven't answered a question that would have highlighted an important issue. This post is a fresh start I hope I will not use the following words: free will, moral, responsibility I will be using the following: choices, consequences, influences, norms, accountability. The universe is not responsible for anything; the universe did not cause anything; the universe is everything we are aware of and we part of that universe. Not everyone will agree with me that the processes of evolution and the unfolding of the universe are the same thing. We usually limit natural selection and another terms to describe evolution of life, but I think that, for example, the necessary formation of hydrogen molecules from the chance or random meetings of hydrogen atoms 100-200 million years after the big bang are part of the evolutionary processes that led to the existence of humans. Assuming evolution as a lens can also help us understand whether or how school staff have colaesce around positive or negative attitudes on how to treat students with special needs. I am the intersection of many causes but only if we were omniscient could we figure out which event caused which aspect of my being. For example: Am I bipolar because I was abused at six or are the two initially not related? How have they interacted since to be part of who I am today? Out of the several alternatives for my future actions, which should I choose and what would be the outcome? Cause and effect or determinism can provide a generally satisfying, but incomplete analysis of past events and is unable to predict 100% of the time the outcomes of the choices available to complex systems. The simpler a unit of system is the few alternatives it has, the more complex a system is the more choices are available. The indeterminism is not wholly a result of our incomplete knowledge. The sequences, consequences, and influences of the many interactions simply cannot be known. The outcomes will not be random or capricious, but complexity, novelty and creativity will play a part. As you have said acceptance of what is leads to mental health and a kinder view of the behoavior of others. Recognition that the make-up of our brains and external events control or influence our behavior is best seen through a lens of acceptance, love, and our common humanity. When a person violates the norms of society, that society, hopefully using the lens of acceptance and love, will choose an appropriate consequence. Society chooses the norms. These norms are not always good and they are available for outside groups to evaluate and to call or effect correction. The teachings of Jesus are an important contribution to the discussion of which behaviors are for good and which are not. The present state of the universe could not have been predicted, even if all causes were known. The future of the universe cannot be known even if all effects can be known. There is no way of predicting the contributions of chance, novelty, and creativity, which are part for the evolutionary process and the unfolding of the universe. Dutch

No one has mentioned supplementary nad documentary hypotheses which proposes that there were several authors or groups of authors for the Pentateuch who had specific agendas. One simple example: First account of the creation was motivated by a priestly class who wanted to emphasize a seven day week with a Sabbath when people would have to come to the temple. The four voices are: Jahwist–Elohist–Priestly–Deuteronomist . Dutch

I intended to comment on soma's account which ended with his surfing metaphor. I think the arc of his account points to the process of human development, whether it is "moral development" or "faith development", etc and the think that is one of the underlying forces here. Soma, maybe I put meaning in your story which you did not intend. Dutch

ar·bi·trar·y adjective 1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. synonyms: capricious, whimsical, random, chance, unpredictable; antonyms: reasoned, rational 2. (of power or a ruling body) unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority. synonyms: autocratic, dictatorial, autarchic, undemocratic, despotic, tyrannical, authoritarian, high-handed; Rom, which meaning of arbitrary are you using in response to the example I gave? How is what I described different from trying to fix a perceived problem? Rom, Did we ever use the second meaning of this word? I appreciate your expansive restatement of your position. Do you mean to say that when we use acceptance, reason and love as a lens to see the behaviors that we have more and better solutions from which to choose? Rom, Sometimes in our discussion free will seems to be an absolute so I hesitate to answer a yes or no question. If the paraphrase below is acceptable then my answer is yes. Does a more complex organism have more freedom out of which to make choices than a simple one? I don't think so. Its behaviours can be more complex that's all. This is where we need to go but I think we need to add the concepts if "chance and necessity" that Father George Coyne uses in his talks about the "Dance of the Fertile Unniverse" Dutch

Joseph What do we gain by avoiding the language of free will and moral repsonsibility and substituting the language of choices and consequences? (I think there may be a good answer.) We still have to parse the influences on the choice made and moderate the consequences accordingly. Rom That we can make an endless list of interconnected heirarchies of cause and effect should not absolve us of the call to discern and make intelligent choices. My wife did not seek an arbitrary boundary; she sought, within the sphere of her influence, the best possible place to make a change. Any or all of those involved - student, parents, teacher, principal, the building(all staff at the school) - might be asked to change behaviors. If the building as a whole will not create an environment that helps the child succeed Diane would try to find another placement for the student. If she failed then there was a likelyhood that the parent would file a lawsuit. I don't understand this insistence that there can be no intellingent, contingent, disdernment of responsiblity. For me a powerful reading of the Garden of Eden story sees it's climax in humans growing up and taking responsibility. I think that often the idea of determinism blinds us to the richness of the evolutionary processes, by ignoring the importance of creativity and novelty. Dutch

I have to take a break and may not respond for up to 24 hrs. I apologize. I am very interested in continuing this line of investigation because I see a learning for me approaching. Dutch

I agree with you in general but... I don't understand why you make a distinction between choice and free will. I didn't expect that. And, I think morality is about right and wrong as seen through society's eyes. I also think that society's eyes now includes the world and that it is appropriate for the world to call a smaller group people to accountable for "bad behavior" This is not the post-modern world when we can say that everything is of equal value and who are we to judge. (to correct an Western European centric view of the world) In a post-post-modern world we do critique all societies, countries, cultural group, etc. The UN Bill of Human Rights is one document that that stands on that POV saying that behaviors can be critiqued from out side the group. Dutch

Rom, I asked a question of your statement. It is your turn to expand on your statement. Dutch

Rom, Let's skip to the whole philosophical question. Maybe earlier in the thread this was covered. Do we have free will so that we might be held morally accountable. The world functions as a compatiblist. Is there any other approach that works? My wife mediated between a teachers and special needs children and their parents. Often the question who have the ability to avoid the conflict? Sometimes the student had the ability and could be held accountable for changing their behavior. But just as often the behavior arose out of their disability and the teacher was held accountable for providing an appropriate environment that would reduce the behavior in the student. This is true in the criminal justice system also. Dutch

In re-reading your post #64 I was caught by this. Is it, then, that the more complex the organism is the less free will it has?

I realize that choice is a flatter and poorer word than free will but this seems like the distinction between apophatic and cataphatic theologies. What free will is not vs what free will is, Why not say there is no free will? That all choices - including which way to lean on the board as we surf - are influenced. Period. Give me another beer. I would not imply intent in either example. Perhaps you have used choice with a less strict meaning that you are requiring of 'free will" Yet "rivers choose their course" catches my attention but I want to keep a discussion of intent and meaning separate from this is discussion of free will. Dutch

god might be that wholly other that seeks relationship. god might be the evolving collection of creation's best ideas, achievements, dreams

romansh Is this an absolute? Is the question do we or don't we have free will? Do these carry any more weight than the influences we have been talking about? How is choice different than free will?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28616115 The Stigma of Being an Atheist

I visited an atheist message board for a while years ago.I found different groups. Some felt hurt by Christian privilege in our society. Some hurts were more personal. Some were glad to have found others with similar experiences. There was also a front line ready to do battle. That was not a place for the weak. The struggle against Christian privilege is motivated by being marginalized, I think.