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David

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Our church is really growing right now. I think there was maybe a downward trend for quite awhile (not helped by a long pastor search process). The last service where members were introduced was probably a record of possibly ten people. Every time they have a member meeting there are a few more people joining. The only people leaving are those who move, at least lately.

 

We're also getting a more balanced congregation with a lot of young couples with kids. They want there kids getting a religious education, but not a message of fear.I think that's drawing them to progressive churches.

 

I don't know if we are in a little rebirth of progressivism, but I think that these things may be cyclical, and we may be going thru a cycle right now. I think this is helped by the failure of the Bush regime and his Religious Right agenda and also of people like Bono and Jim Wallis (and others) who have written and spoken for the other side of Christianity. It makes people see there is a Third Way. And you can take moral stances without rejecting homosexuals, for instance.

 

BTW, I've had an easier time lately saying I'm a progressive Christian without getting strange looks and that sort of thing. Of course, just that I CAN say it is something right there.

 

--des

Edited by des
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Our church is really growing right now. I think there was maybe a downward trend for quite awhile (not helped by a long pastor search process). The last service where members were introduced was probably a record of possibly ten people. Every time they have a member meeting there are a few more people joining. The only people leaving are those who move, at least lately.

 

We're also getting a more balanced congregation with a lot of young couples with kids. They want there kids getting a religious education, but not a message of fear.I think that's drawing them to progressive churches.

 

I don't know if we are in a little rebirth of progressivism, but I think that these things may be cyclical, and we may be going thru a cycle right now. I think this is helped by the failure of the Bush regime and his Religious Right agenda and also of people like Bono and Jim Wallis (and others) who have written and spoken for the other side of Christianity. It makes people see there is a Third Way. And you can take moral stances without rejecting homosexuals, for instance.

 

BTW, I've had an easier time lately saying I'm a progressive Christian without getting strange looks and that sort of thing. Of course, just that I CAN say it is something right there.

 

--des

 

I love to hear success stories like this. Thanks.

 

I believe many maniline churches could grow as progressive congregations if more pastors were willing to "clear the pews" of people who resist a progressive agenda. This means temporaily seeing the congregation shrink. And the pastor could easily lose in this battle for truth and have to find a new job! I have seen that happen all too often but it nevertheless needs to be done. I have had some success over the years in doing this but it ain't easy.

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I haven't seen any "clearing of the pews" type of thing. I think the church always was pretty progressive, has that reputation. Funny thing but many of the elderly members are quite progressive. I know one of them pretty well-- one of them has a gay son. I asked her if she became UCC because fo their stance on gays and she said "no, I was in UCC years before". I've talked to some of them in depth and know that some of these people have some of the same theological views I do. You might think it was the older people resisting progressiveness. But it's just not always so.

 

I think some churches which have had more varied history might have more difficulty. I know some churches have resisted the Open and Affirming stance. Our church did debate and discuss it for about two years. I think, it was before my time, but it was more because they took it seriously, not that there was lots of resistance.

Actually the church in Chicago, lost more people (a couple) when they took on inclusive language. I don't recall it was ever discussed at the one I go to now. OTOH, we stil say the Lord's Prayer "Our Father". The UCC in Chicago said "Our Mother/Father".

 

--des

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I haven't seen any "clearing of the pews" type of thing. I think the church always was pretty progressive, has that reputation. Funny thing but many of the elderly members are quite progressive. I know one of them pretty well-- one of them has a gay son. I asked her if she became UCC because fo their stance on gays and she said "no, I was in UCC years before". I've talked to some of them in depth and know that some of these people have some of the same theological views I do. You might think it was the older people resisting progressiveness. But it's just not always so.

 

I think some churches which have had more varied history might have more difficulty. I know some churches have resisted the Open and Affirming stance. Our church did debate and discuss it for about two years. I think, it was before my time, but it was more because they took it seriously, not that there was lots of resistance.

Actually the church in Chicago, lost more people (a couple) when they took on inclusive language. I don't recall it was ever discussed at the one I go to now. OTOH, we stil say the Lord's Prayer "Our Father". The UCC in Chicago said "Our Mother/Father".

 

--des

 

We are in such changing times and many, many congregations are in denial about the need for change. I believe most mainline churches will change (progress!) as the years go by once we move beyond this phase of denial which runs so deep everywhere. Most preople do take the Bible metaphorically and sacramentally rather tha literally as Marcus Borg puts it. But the people who aren't there yet don't want to be confronted by the truth of progressive revelation on Sunday mornings. In all too many mainline congregations, these people get their way and the congregations shrink because they come to stand for nothing much. Truly Progressive congregations can and do grow. It's an identity and purpose thing. Rick Warren really is on to something there though I would hardly call him a Progressive!

 

The motto of my denomination -- Presbyterian Church (USA) -- is "Reformed and Always Being Reformed." Some Presbyterian congregations do this pretty well but most have a long way to go. The shrinking of our denomination may never end because of a lack of courage on the part of pastors to "clear the pews" if and when necessary for the sake of the truth which is indeed progressive.

Edited by mystictrek
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I also have found unprogrammed Quaker Meeting to be a very mystical and worshipful place but I LOVE the traditional church music. And the windows, incense, candles, smells and bells, even the mystery of the bread and the wine although I no longer take any of it literally.

 

The idea of a church which is "noisy and boisterous, ... The music--jazz, blues, rock and roll and rap ... The lighting will be colorful and dramatic. These services will go on for two hours or more..." totally turns me off. The unfocused nature (to me) of the UU service also doesn't attract me. I don't regularly attend Quaker Meeting any more (I did for a couple of years) but what I most appreciated was the quiet and the stillness. I don't go because I miss the music.

 

Therein may lie some of the problem. What is appealing in terms of the form of the service has become as varied in our times as the theologies. I think it's fine for some to have a jazz-rap service, I just don't want it to be MY only alternative. The Episcopalian idea which seems to be peeling apart - that we share the same service although we may not share the same interpretation - was very appealing to me. I'd love to find a place that had the high music and the trappings of the high service but a progressive theology and progressive sermons. If I started a new denomination that's what it would be.

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Bauer talks about this in Stealing Jesus, how fundamentalism betrays Christianity.

What he talks about is the "vertical" domain, that which is separate and sacred space.

He talks about how fundies mock mainline churches which can't eliminate the "trappings"

but have no trouble eliminating doctrine, as if trappings were just trappings.

 

I don't know how one does it-- but a traditional service, with elements like a 'dark church"

(vs one flooded with artifiical light), stained glass, communion, hymns, etc (there may be

equally valid other ways to do this) but they take the person out of the here and now workaday

type world. I esp. love Christmas eve with the candlelight service as a way to really pull you out

of the ordinary.

 

Praise music, songs and dance and so on, are just ordinary. Like commercials on tv.

Only it's Jesus Jesus! Instead of Pepsi, Pepsi! :-)

 

--des

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Hello, I am a member of a community church that espouses the principles of progressive christianity in a profound way. I however don't think another denomination is the solution. But seeing all of humanity as one race is what is really important. One more denomination would further split the already macro problem. Our church teaches that each person must discover their own theology and that the role of our church body is to support that discovery journey.

Sarah Swart

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Most Presbyterian clergy are at least relatively progressive while the laity lag behind. My hope for my denomination is that it will become more and more progressive. I am sure there are many UCC, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Disciples, RCA (and others) here who feel the same way about their denominations. Let's not give up hope about our current mainline denominations. I do hope that the mainline churches will someday merge. Particularly Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, UCC, RCA, Disciples of Christ. There is no compelling reason for us to continue to be loyal to our European backgrounds. We can integrate these traditions if we become a little more humble and open-minded. There has been some progress at ecumenical cooperation in the past 100 years but we still have a long way to go because of misplaced loyalties. It is too bad that it may be continuing shrinkage which will bring merger about. Merger is long overdue.

 

Progressives need to take over these denominations with evangelical zeal and political know how. Our cause is the truth.

 

Bob Edgar is working hard for this cause. I heard him this morning on the Diane Rehm Show (NPR). He is the Executive Secretary of the National Council of Churches of Christ. He has just written a book called Middle Church: Reclaiming the Moral Values of the Faithful Majority from the Religious Right. There are several great links which you can find on my blog today including a link to an interview he just did for Faithful America. What do you think of my new blog format? Please check it out. Thanks!

Edited by mystictrek
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I haven't yet read through the enire tread. I wanted to respond to something in post 5.

 

Michael Durall is quoted giving his vision for the UU church. I would like to respond to parts of that vision.

 

"These churches will have no steeples.

 

I am not sure what problem people have with steeples.

 

no organs,

 

I am a progressive, and I welcome new things. But, I have not compulsion to get rid of the things just because they are not new. The organ is a much better instrument for worship than the alternatives I have seen.

 

no pews,

 

What would they have instead of pews. Would people just be standing, or would they be those horribly uncomfortable chairs that some new churches have? Pews are much more comfortable and practical than the alternatives I have seen.

 

and no stained glass windows.

 

Are we giving up on beauty?

 

... people will stay and share a meal together, a gourmet fare prepared by a first rate caterer. Potluck is a relic of the past...

 

Please, no. If anything in the traditional church is worth keeping, the potluck dinner surely is.

 

Worship will be conducted to two to three languages, alternating from one to another, with the text of hymns and prayer projected onto large screens, so that all can particpate so to some extent...

 

My problem with this that they never project the music on the screens, but only the words. It is much nicer to have the music in hand, so one can read the part that one is singing. When I have been at services where the songs are projected, the music has also been just insipid praise music, with no theological message. It is different, yes, but it is hardly progressive.

 

These churches will attract interracial couples, both straight and gay, bringing the mix we have never been able to achieve before".

 

The pews, the organ, the stained glass windows, and the pot-luck dinners have never been the reasons the churches did not attract interracial couples, both straight and gay.

 

The style of music, architecture, furniture, etc are not what makes a church progressive. What makes a church progressive is an openness to new persons even if they are unlike us, and an openness to new ideas even if they challenge us, and a willingness to reexamine what we believe and what we do.

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>Michael Durall is quoted giving his vision for the UU church. I would like to respond to parts of that vision.

 

>>"These churches will have no steeples.

 

>I am not sure what problem people have with steeples.

 

I don't care one way or the other about steeples, but I have seen churches that got rid of them in favor of some other kind of tall structure. One church reminds me of a pidgeon roost. :-)

By all means we should erect large pidgeon roosts.

 

>>no organs,

 

>I am a progressive, and I welcome new things. But, I have not compulsion to get rid of the things just because they are not new. The organ is a much better instrument for worship than the alternatives I have seen.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with an organ, but it could be a guitar or a piano, you can sing with either of these. I went to guitar Catholic masses when I went to a small Catholic run college. I liked them quite a lot, but they were quite small.

 

>>no pews,

 

>What would they have instead of pews. Would people just be standing, or would they be those horribly uncomfortable chairs that some new churches have? Pews are much more comfortable and practical than the alternatives I have seen.

 

I don't mind chairs either. And pews aren't known for comfort. I think they are an irrelevant detail. You sit on pillows (kind of hard on the old folks though).

 

>>and no stained glass windows.

 

>Are we giving up on beauty?

 

I love stained glass. It doesn't have to be super pious scenes. We have a few stained glass windows:

one is a stylized wine with bread; another the scales of justice; another a dove. They are beautiful, and let in nice warm toned light.

 

Hey ever seen Chagal's stained glass window in Chicago?

 

>> ... people will stay and share a meal together, a gourmet fare prepared by a first rate caterer. Potluck is a relic of the past...

 

>Please, no. If anything in the traditional church is worth keeping, the potluck dinner surely is.

 

I also like the tradition of potluck. But we did have a gourmet feast once. We didn't hire out a couple church members pulled it off. Otherwise you are paying money for stuff the congregation can do themselves. Rather silly use of cash. Give the money to social justice or church upkeep.

Far from being a thing of the past, Potluck is done at many other kind of gatherings. Our Corgi club is having a potluck, and we worship dog. :-)

 

 

>>Worship will be conducted to two to three languages, alternating from one to another, with the text of hymns and prayer projected onto large screens, so that all can particpate so to some extent...

 

My problem with this that they never project the music on the screens, but only the words. It is much nicer to have the music in hand, so one can read the part that one is singing. When I have been at services where the songs are projected, the music has also been just insipid praise music, with no theological message. It is different, yes, but it is hardly progressive.

 

I don't have much problem with doing translations, however, translation does lack immediacy-- I think most speakers of another language would choose to hear their services in that language. I wouldn't want to go to a service with an English translation flashed on a board. If you really had a multilingual constituent, I think it would be better to go to something like taize, where language is less important.

 

As for music flashed on a board ala PowerPoint. Please say NO!!!

I actually saw this once where I didnt' object to it, and that was at a new church that had not yet built their building. They would go to a local school where it was easier and cheaper to use PowerPoint on a laptop than bring in hymnals.

 

Otherwise, sounds very distracting. Just sounds like a wild color and light show. Why not just present laser images, I think it would be more aethetically edifying?

 

>>These churches will attract interracial couples, both straight and gay, bringing the mix we have never been able to achieve before".

 

>The pews, the organ, the stained glass windows, and the pot-luck dinners have never been the reasons the churches did not attract interracial couples, both straight and gay.

 

Nah, we already have all these and we have gay and straight couples and singles.

 

>The style of music, architecture, furniture, etc are not what makes a church progressive. What makes a church progressive is an openness to new persons even if they are unlike us, and an openness to new ideas even if they challenge us, and a willingness to reexamine what we believe and what we do.

 

 

amen.

 

 

--des

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Please, no. If anything in the traditional church is worth keeping, the potluck dinner surely is.

 

I also like the tradition of potluck.

 

You ain't ever had church potluck until you've had Mormon (LDS) pot luck. Green jello with pineapple, five different kinds of "ambrosia" (google it) and ham sandwiches on Rhodes bake and serve white rolls with mayonaise. Yummy. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, I was being sarcastic.) ;)

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Joseph Spong wrote in Why Christianity Must Change or Die that steeples are an architectual expression of reaching heavenward, and so he objects to steeples as representing an outdated world view that placed heaven and God physically above the world in the sky, instead of immanent within the world. I have no idea if this is Michael Durall's objection or not.

 

I was a participant for many years in the Quaker tradition, and I know that the Quaker meetinghouses I visited had no stained glass or organs, and during meetings for worship I generally sat in chairs rather than pews. But those sorts of things were largely a manifestation of Quaker simplicity. If you aren't a Quaker, I really don't see any problem with stained glass or organs. I do think that churches can be ostentatious and grandiose in their design some times, but I also think that art can uplift the soul.

 

As for potlucks, I really don't see why that would cause any problem.

Edited by Mystical Seeker
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I've been to different churches in Canada. A high Anglican cathedral in Ontario is hard to beat in terms of formal church architecture -- steeples, stained glass, pews, and bells -- but church architecture (or lack of it) isn't what I remember best when I look back at my church experiences. What I remember best is the way people treat each other. When my younger son was being treated for leukemia, he was allowed out of the hospital once. This happened to coincide with Easter, so we went to church on Easter Sunday. It was an Anglican church, and the church members had been very supportive to us during our time of crisis. Sometimes we'd come home from the hospital, utterly spent, and find a casserole on our doorstep. We couldn't have been more grateful. Anyway, on this particular Easter Sunday, the church was full, and the formal Anglican service in all its quiet dignity was proceeding, when suddenly our 2 1/2 year old son (who'd been in a hospital isolation room for 3 months until the day or two before) looked up and saw the ceiling fans spinning in the 19th century ceiling. He squealed at the top of his lungs, "Look, Mommy, a fan!", and the church congregation, instead of staring at us in disapproval for our son's behaviour, turned and smiled with us. It was a truly spiritual moment of membership in the congregation of the Holy Spirit.

 

Love Jen

Edited by canajan, eh?
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  • 4 weeks later...

For those looking for some great discussions on polity it is worth looking at Planting God Communities

 

This comes from the current leader of the UU Christians. This is a group that seems to point to that Progressive Christian space between UU and UCC but I don’t think this group has filled that space yet. They may yet do so but I suspect that the forces in the UU will not let them succeed. Also, some within this group do not seem to associate with the “Progressive” label.

 

In any case, Ron Robinson has some great resources and ideas about what the future Church may look like.

 

He does not seem to conclude that a new denomination will be necessary but I wonder whether those UU forces will change his mind.

Edited by David
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Anquisitum -

 

It sounds like we have identical tastes in churches! I think there are some Episcopal cathedrals in large cities that come close to what you are describing. Unfortunately, for me, none of them are where I live.

 

My favorite is Grace Cathedral in San Francisco - they have a wonderful Web site.

 

http://www.gracecathedral.com/

 

I do enjoy downloading progressive sermons to my iPod, though, and I can imagine the gorgeous cathedrals since I can't often visit them in person.

 

Topaz

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