FredP Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Recognizing this, I can see why so many feel the pull of renunciation and asceticsm. I've never particularly wanted to be a nun , but I have felt the pull to a simper life, one that won't "get in the way" of my quest. Then I remember that we are called to be in the world (if not of the "world"). I contemplated a monastic lifestyle quite a bit actually, but I always sensed it was partially motivated by a desire to run away from whatever loneliness, or depression, or painful experience I was having. It was always about feeling like life was meaningless, and wanting to find identity in something meaningful -- rather than to really know myself deeply, which is the essential prerequisite for allowing the Spirit to transform you. I think, if you're really called to it, and are doing it with the right motivations, you can still have a profound and effective ministry to the world at large -- though, especially in the more contemplative orders, one must relinquish the obsession with activity, and the feeling that God needs you to do things to bring the New Creation about. Even to be part of an order sends a message to those who are seeking, that there is meaning to be found in all this, if one only looks for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 Very good points. When I think of living a simpler life though, one of renunciation, I must admit that what appeals to me, is communal living. I think I'm somewhat of a hippie at heart, but the idea of living in the mountains, surrounded by quiet and beauty, living off the land, sharing with each other and focusing on God, is extremely appealing. Good grief, reading this, even I (who like the idea) think "Cult!" However, to paint a better picture, I'd say to combine the idea of the popular Yoga retreats you see advertised in the magazines with the idea of the popular "dude ranch" retreats you see advertised in the magazines. I swear, communal livng wouldn't HAVE to be comet-jumping, cool-aid drinking craziness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystictrek Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Great topic. I think the teaching of the Buddha that there is a middle way between strict ascetism and gluttony is basic common sense. God gave us a feast to enjoy and its OK to enjoy but excess sooner or later ruins the enjoyment. Jesus contrasted his way of enjoying the feast with the strict ascetiscim of John the Baptist. I believe that the practice of stillness is the key to a balanced life. I believe periodic fasting makes sense but is not necessarily essential. Fasting may be essential for some people on certain paths of discovery and enlightenment. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the practice of stillness is essential sooner or later. Boy, do I resist this practice day after day after day. I have developed a system of opening up to our here and now heavenly life at my website (below). Stillness leads to detachment leads to humility. Silence leads to discernment leads to healing. Solitude leads to devotion leads to holiness. Simplicity leads to delight leads to heavenliness. Heaven is the here and now experience of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice and freedom. Love is at the center of these heavenly attributes. Love makes the world go 'round. Love is everywhere. Be still and know that I am God. Be still and know that I am love. Be still and know that I love you. Be still and know. Be still. Be. Namaste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystictrek Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 What inspired me to start this thread in the first place, was thinking about mankind's being "fallen." It's been my experience that most progressive Christians don't "believe" in original sin or the fall as traditionally taught by the Church, and so, the whole idea of living in a "fallen" state is ignored. I believe in original sin but I also believe in the "deeper magic" (term used by CS Lewis in the NARNIA CHRONICLES) of original blessing as Matthew Fox has taught. St. Paul said that sin abounds but grace abounds even more. Luther said "sin boldly" with the idea that the more sin there is, the more grace there is. But that can sure be misused. It's a theological point, not an ethical point. In resurrection, Jesus overthrows the curse of original sin with the "deeper magic" of the original blessing. This is an ongoing process so that it is necessary to keep pointing out the power of the curse while emphasizing the greater power of the original blessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 I believe in original sin but I also believe in the "deeper magic" (term used by CS Lewis in the NARNIA CHRONICLES) of original blessing as Matthew Fox has taught. Great book, "Original Blessing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 "Good grief, reading this, even I (who like the idea) think "Cult!" However, to paint a better picture, I'd say to combine the idea of the popular Yoga retreats you see advertised in the magazines with the idea of the popular "dude ranch" retreats you see advertised in the magazines. I swear, communal livng wouldn't HAVE to be comet-jumping, cool-aid drinking craziness! " Sounds great! Just one caveat... no human nature allowed! I'm in! Mystic - I totally agree about stillness and yet I also resist it consistently! Romans 8, I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystictrek Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 "Good grief, reading this, even I (who like the idea) think "Cult!" However, to paint a better picture, I'd say to combine the idea of the popular Yoga retreats you see advertised in the magazines with the idea of the popular "dude ranch" retreats you see advertised in the magazines. I swear, communal livng wouldn't HAVE to be comet-jumping, cool-aid drinking craziness!" Aw, c'mon Cynthia. Join my cult. I need a follower!! Oops, that's my ego talking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Sure! Why not?!?! Can we have coffee instead of Kool Aid???? Fair warning that I tend to be a bit difficult as a follower... I'm not very good at it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredP Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 When I think of living a simpler life though, one of renunciation, I must admit that what appeals to me, is communal living. I think I'm somewhat of a hippie at heart, but the idea of living in the mountains, surrounded by quiet and beauty, living off the land, sharing with each other and focusing on God, is extremely appealing. Oh yeah, totally! As long as I can still have my geek toys to play with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 OK OK OK I have only one thing to say. TOGA ! TOGA ! TOGA ! We all crave a communal camp-out in the wilderness with lots of coffee and solar panels for Fred's gadgets !! And none of us care if mean-old judgemental people call ussins a CULT, even though most of us might sit around in silence all day... but at night... WHOOOO !!! WHOOO !!! I really like SMORES ! Does that mean I'll have to grow my own marshmallows and chocolate bars ? flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 Does that mean I'll have to grow my own marshmallows and chocolate bars ? Flow, if you figure out how to do that, I'll worship you instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryb Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 ...a new born baby is born...fresh from the hand of God....the baby dies two days later...with no chance to understand what sin is...that it needs to repent...or accept a Savior. Are we really going to even THINK about that baby being 'lost'? Not Me! Well, nobody suggested that a two day old baby was going to be punished for not being able to understand sin or accept a savior. Even the most conservative of Catholics and most fundamentalists believe in the notion of an "age of accountability." But in any case, knocking down a straw man doesn't prove anything. I had written more about this, but I decided not to go off topic any further. Plus we're not in the debate section. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The age of accuntability? Does anybody even know where that term came from? And who decides at what age that occurs? Sorry....but I've never bought that argument...even when I was a fundamentalist. Help me somebody! Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Anybody else see it like this? Jerry, I'm not sure what you mean by "sin" not having a place within progressive Christianity or that recognizing sin keeps us in spiritual infancy. I understand not wanting to talk about sin from the perspective taken by traditional Christianity. However, as I stated in my post, this is not what I mean. I would argue that all spiritual traditions and paths offer some guidance that leads away from self-centeredness and toward God (or other) centeredness. The only view that I can think of that would teach that there is no such thing as "sin" (selfishness, greed, ego) would be philosophies that teach that all the world is illusion and that we just need to realize it to wake up. In this scenario, no, there is no sin or evil. There is just God, experiencing. Is this where you are coming from? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth said "You see, religion is really a kind of second womb. It's designed to bring this extremely complicated thing, which is a human being, to maturity, which means to be self-motivating, self acting. But the idea of sin puts you in a servile condition throughout your life." minsocal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 I am a huge Joseph Campbell fan. I appreciate that he rejected the idea of sin that he had been brought up with. I reject the idea of sin that I was indoctrinated with too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 I am a huge Joseph Campbell fan. I appreciate that he rejected the idea of sin that he had been brought up with. I reject the idea of sin that I was indoctrinated with too. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I"m going to have to check that out. As a psychology major I found that talking about things being sin really didn't help matters. It was counter productive, in fact. It is one of the doctrines that I have a tough time dealilng with as a concept of actual existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 I'm with you on this Flow. I don't believe in original sin either.Here's why...a new born baby is born...fresh from the hand of God....the baby dies two days later...with no chance to understand what sin is...that it needs to repent...or accept a Savior. Are we really going to even THINK about that baby being 'lost'? Not Me I'm reading this topic backwards but I read a letter to the editor in the local newspaper explaining how all this works. It was scary that people think this way, imo. I'm with you and Flow on this one. Even as a conservative/fundamentalist I understood this was wrong. At that point I was in the mid-way with an age of accountability. As an adult who works with children I'm tending to put that age higher and higher. Children are too vulnerable to their parents and culture. I see young adults who behave the way they do primiarily because of their upbringing which leads me to raise the age from 5 to 20 for some people! Just, FYI, I don't believe in hell so the whole thing really isn't an issue for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystictrek Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 The idea of sin is not something we should easily dismiss. I like the original definition of sin in the Greek -- hamartia -- it is simply missing the mark ( an archery term). Sin is falling short of the glory of God. We all do that. It helps to acknowledge that. But not if it is designed to make us feel unworthy, ashamed, guilty, no-good, helpless, unpardonable, etc. Original sin is simply the reality that human beings are born with a predisposition to hurt ourselves and others. Before that comes the Original blessing which means we are born with a predisposition to help ourselves and others. I belive the OB is far more powerful than the OS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
October's Autumn Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 The idea of sin is not something we should easily dismiss. I like the original definition of sin in the Greek -- hamartia -- it is simply missing the mark ( an archery term). Sin is falling short of the glory of God. We all do that. It helps to acknowledge that. But not if it is designed to make us feel unworthy, ashamed, guilty, no-good, helpless, unpardonable, etc. Where does the concept of sin come into the bible? It is from the Hebrew Bible or only from the NT? If it is from the Hebrew Bible we need to llok at the meaning in Hebrew. I've heard the defnintion you give for "sin" but have never been able to verify it. Do you have more information on it? I'm curious more about it. Of course "sin" has taken on a whole new meaning in recent centuries and that is mostly what I think we are rallying against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Look at it this way. If the prince of darkness (and we all know he's not a she and that he's really out there) wanted to create a set of boundary conditions for human behavior such that we would end up punishing ourselves if we habitually exceeded them, then the seven sins would be those. That doesn't make them an evil and dark set of things per se, but if they are used by religious authorities or others to persistently stifle our joyful activities and keep us from enjoying ourselves and our relationships with others, including our own family members, then THAT WOULD BE EVIL. I have watched this happen in the flesh, and my opinion is that this is the root cause of all abuse, and comprises the workings of the dark night of some peoples' souls to try to turn the human race away from a committment to a positive set of beliefs for the future. What do you think this current uproar about torture is all about anyway? Everyone knows that it's wrong by definition, but here we have high U.S. potentates justifying it's employment and use. And ALL of this comes from giving one person an undue amount of power over the lives of others, and that person using that power to impose unfair judgemental standards upon the behavior of others. End of rant ! flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hmmmm ... Let's pretend the word "sin" was never brought up. It's the "archery" metaphor I had in mind all along, but the "traditional Christian" definition seems too firmly entrenched to move beyond even on a progressive Christianity forum. Instead, let's discuss (maybe, perhaps?) the idea of "aiming" ourselves towards God, rather than towards self. Becoming God-centered instead of ego-centered. The Liturgical year (which I've never observed in my life) has grabbed my attention as a way to help do that, both as individuals, and as the "Body of Christ." Daily meditation, perhaps in a "Centering Prayer" form comes to mind as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 (edited) Pretending is good. Without that literature would not exist. I just pretended that I needed an afternoon snack and am now enjoying some roasted garlic hummus on ritz-like crackers and a pear nectar while listening to reggae with FRENCH lyrics !. Gluttony works ! Go ahead, judge me ! flow.... Edited January 14, 2006 by flowperson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 I would never judge you Flow. You know how to grow chocolate and marshmallows. I have to stay on your good side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 He he he he he he he he. Just had some cookies and organic 1% milk too. I feel lots better now. mmmmmmmm ! flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AletheiaRivers Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 cookies NOT FAIR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Homemade chocolate chip from the recipie on the Nestle's bag. Although I jiggle with the formula a little. I use canola margarine and I eliminate the 1/4 cup flour from the 2 1/4 called for and substitute 1/2 cup rolled oats. Oh, and I only use 2/3 of a bag of semi sweet chips and substitute 1/3 cup of milk chocolate chips, Guittard if I can find them. Chewier...mmmmmmmmmmmm... Chocolatey...mmmmmmmmmmm..very fair. Almost time for bed...mmmmmmmmmmm ! I was just kidding about growing chocolate bars and marshmallows...really ! Food engineering isn't that advanced yet, but it's coming, probably in your lifetime. flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.