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Borg, Marcus:the Heart Of Christianity


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Panta,

 

I'm so sorry your kitty died! :( Two of my kitties are in the 15 year range, so I'm starting to get nervous and worried. I don't want to lose any of them! :angry:

 

This is one of the best description of God/dess as understood by process thought that I've seen. God is BOTH infinite and finite, absolute and relative, personal and impersonal...

 

Thanks!

 

It's funny, I've struggled and do struggle against some of the conclusions in process philosophy (leaning a bit towards open theology as a halfway point), but I've realized that as I've tried to describe my personal musings about God/dess that I've been describing much of process thought. :lol:

 

I'm seriously considering re-reading the book I mentioned: She Who Changes by Carol Christ.

 

I was at Barnes and Noble last night and found myself so frustrated. I wanted so much to find a book that incorporates metaphysical musings on the nature of God/dess. One that balances apophatic and kataphatic theology and mysticism. One that incorporates Christianity.

 

Perhaps I need to read more of Matthew Fox's books? Any recommendations anyone?

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If God didn't exist, would there Be???  :blink: 

 

LOL! Nope!

 

Perhaps another way to put the question would be "If God didn't exist, would there Be-coming?"

 

One websight I like put it thusly. It is a little long, but worth reading.

 

"An infinite whole cannot possess finite qualities in and of itself. It may contain or encompass finite aspects within itself, but when taken as a totality, no finite qualities can be assigned to it. As a result, the only form which existence can take (in the ultimate sense) is the form of pure potential. Potential, unrealized, is infinite by nature - it is all possibilities with no defined outcomes.

 

This unlimited potential, by necessity, brings about the constant change in form and structure we observe around us. This occurs due to the fact that the infinite must produce finite manifestations (such as our universe and its myriad forms), for if it were not so, there would be no true potential. Potential must be capable of actualizing, or it is not potential at all.

 

If the ultimate sense of existence does not consist of pure potential, it consists of nothing at all, which constitutes non-existence, a violation of the second existential principle [establishing that non-existence cannot, by definition, exist]. Therefore, existence in the ultimate sense is not physical (for 'potential' is the opposite of 'actual'), but physicality must necessarily flow from it.

 

This can be somewhat difficult to understand at first glance, but with due contemplation, the meaning becomes clear. The nature of existence is, by necessity, such that the infinite will always produce finite (physical) manifestations which are subject to the overriding principle of physicality, which can best be described as 'constant change.'

 

This principle is most fundamental because if the finite (physical) were not subject to change, it would posess a quality of infinity and could no longer be called finite at all."

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Uh-oh. It's getting really deeeeep in here! Cool!! :D

 

So, you identify God with Pure Potentiality - or in process terms, 'Creativity'. This would make, as you've implied, actuality a derivative of potentiality. And yet, as Aristotle discovered, there can be no potentiality apart from actuality. Potentiality must follow actuality - as the possibility of the tree can only follow from the actuality of the acorn, or the possibility of the adult can only follow from the actuality of the child. And yet, the acorn or the child existed as potentials before they existed as actualities. If all potentialities are derived from actualities, and all actualities were potential before they were actual, we can't really say that either pontentiality or actuality is ultimate.

 

Maybe there are TWO ULTIMATES? And neither of them is derived from the other? Now we're talkin' Process!! And, as you say, it is difficult to understand.

Edited by PantaRhea
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Phanta: I too am sorry to hear about your cat died. Sometimes pets are more like "family" than "pets."

 

As an aside, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on death.

 

But, perhaps some of us are more "feeling" oriented than "thinking" oriented so we find it easier to do what seems to come naturally - for us. But, this is why we need one another.

I agree. Since I score as an INFP (and apparently an extreme one at that) in the Myers-Briggs, I think I'll just sit around and soak up the vibes from all this thinking. :)

 

Maybe there are TWO ULTIMATES? And neither of them is derived from the other? Now we're talkin' Process!! And, as you say, it is difficult to understand.

Which reminds me of David Tracy (who I believe is a process theologian) talks about "di-polar theism."

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I created a new thread to discuss, well, much of what has been discussed on this thread. LOL! :D It's under Christianity "Hybrids". It seems we've gotten a little off topic regarding "Heart of Christianity".

 

Hope that's ok.

Edited by AletheiaRivers
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Panta - apologies! Got caught up in the thoughts and neglected condolences. Just imagine cat heaven... lots of mice, no one to get mad when you bring them in... birds that are slow, all the adventure you could want and then all the quiet, warm milk, lots of petting... :)

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Oh PantaR, sorry to hear about your kitty. I have a 16 year old cat too. I'm trying to prepare myself somehow.... After one of my cats died, I did feel her presence around me if I was paying attention. Prob. a feeling of being attuned to her memory or something.

 

On a different note, so XianA you are also a INFP. Haha, I'll bet there are at least 10 or so of us in here. :-)

 

--des

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  • 1 month later...

Hi folks,

 

I've read Borg's book "THOC" and it has greatly encouraged me in my faith in moving more progressive in my Christianity.

 

As to his comments on prayer, I, too, am a little puzzled as to how he sees intercessory prayer.

 

One of the things that I really appreciate, though, is his ability to offer a new perception on something that I have often taken for granted. Take his comment on spirituality for example: "Spirituality is paying attention to our relationship to God." What a wonderfully simple explanation that goes so much further than praying the Prayer of Jabez, finding a Purpose Driven Life, or asking perpetually, "What Would Jesus Do?" Christianity has made spirituality so complicated.

 

Similarly, I appreciate the concept that prayer is a variety of ways that we pay attention to God. Whenever I am concentrating on Him, that, I believe, is a form of prayer -- it is God and I in communion.

 

As to intercessory, Borg doesn't believe in an intervening God. Yet he still seems to pray in a manner that is asking God to do something. Maybe such requests are more acknowledgements of "thin places" or the unity we have with all other Christians rather than trying to get God to show up in our circumstances.

 

The bottom line for me, new as I am to PC, is that I am undecided as to what form my prayers should take while still being convinced that prayer is part of what it means to know God. At this stage in my faith quest, I don't try to get God to do anything. I ask, but maybe because my asking, rather than getting God to show up, simply reminds me of my place in the overall scheme of things.

 

trek

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Welcome Trek! CS Lewis says that he doesn't pray to change God, he prays because it changes him.

 

Lots of people here don't believe in intercessionary prayer... I think :) . I do. I don't think that I will always, or even often, get what I ask for... but sometimes I do. Listening to myself pray helps me to "hear" myself.... I try to cut off the smiting prayers and check my heart :lol: - same for the greedy ones. So, I don't know... perhaps I'm there with CS. I have experienced what I know (can't prove, but Know) are answered prayers.

 

There is a lot of really great research with double blind studies on prayer that are pretty amazing. Many are summarized in a book called "Mind Body Health" - I'll look for it to give a better id.

 

Anybody else have experience with answered prayers?

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Borg mentions, in most of his books, a concept that he calls "thin places." These are, if I understand correctly, places or experiences where the "barrier" that separates us from the divine is very thin and we can experience something of the Spirit in the now. I guess you might call it a mystic experience.

 

Have any of you had "thin places" in your journey? If you did, did they just happen or is there something that you can do that makes such experiences more accessible?

 

I've been a Christian for 33 years but have never experienced anything that I would call "supernatural", out-of-the-body, a sensing of God that was completely unexplainable through natural means, a mystic encounter, or a "proof" of God's presence with me that I could rely on no matter how I felt about religion or the bible.

 

What have been your experiences of "thin places?" Were you seeking them? Are they still as unexplainable now as they were when you first experienced them?

 

trek

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Hey Trek. The "completely unexplainable" is where I think you may be missing it....

 

You just know - if you let yourself. I could tell you about "thin" times, but they wouldn't make sense to you and wouldn't convince you... they were meant for me and I just Know.

 

The Love that Surpasses knowledge...

 

Phillip Yancey talks/writes about using the same evidence to prove or disprove God - you can't do either for someone else.

 

If you are looking for a thin place, try music, nature, someone you love. Get quiet. Just be. It's ok to think you've lost it... noblody knows but you and God. :P

 

Be ready for "the look" if you try to tell someone about it. :blink::D

 

Go with God

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My thin place is the mountains near where I live. I can sit in silence against a really old tree and just FEEL God. Mysticism is my passion.

 

There is a "Mystical Christianity" thread in the Progressive forum. Some of the posts might offer some insights, but like Cynthia said, a mystical experience is rather hard to explain (ineffable).

 

The Mystic Heart by Teasdale is an awesome book that explains different mystical traditions and experiences. Also, in the "Mystical Christianity" thread I mentioned, earlier today I posted a link for a websight that has TONS of information. :)

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  • 9 months later...

[

Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything. Just doesn't make any sense.

 

M> I too have struggled with the concept of an interventionalist God. Given the suffering in the world, this has never made any sense. I do see God as Love, Compassion, Wholeness, Oneness. This does not mean that God loves me. It means for me, like the Sun is light and Heat, so God is Love and Oneness. It is up to me to be open and aware of this Love and Oneness and live with this awareness. It also means letting go of focusing on myself as an individual.

 

I have also been impressed with Matthew Fox, especially his via negativa--his idea of acceptance of suffering has a profound influence on my life. I have experienced suffering as a process of purification and growth. Thanks for mentioning "Process Theology", I want to learn more about this.

 

 

Marilyn

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[

Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything.  Just doesn't make any sense.

 

M> I too have struggled with the concept of an interventionalist God.  Given the suffering in the world, this has never made any sense.  I do see God as Love, Compassion, Wholeness, Oneness.  This does not mean that  God loves me.  It means for me, like the Sun is light and Heat, so God is Love and Oneness.  It is up to me to be open and aware of this Love and Oneness and live with this awareness.  It also means letting go of focusing on myself as an individual.

 

I  have also been impressed with Matthew Fox, especially his via negativa--his idea of acceptance of suffering has a profound influence on my life.  I have experienced suffering as a process of purification and growth.  Thanks for mentioning "Process Theology",  I want to learn more about this.

 

 

Marilyn

 

 

 

I hadn't read this thread before, but skimmed enough of it this morning to realize now the first part of the above is a quote. So that's two more people who don't see God as traditionalists do, as the source of all power, knowledge, love, and goodness that there is. That seems obvious to me from looking at this world, but those who believe in a traditional God are so sure of themselves.

 

I am not impressed with those who say suffering should be accepted, as if it were divinely ordained, as if people bring it on themselves, whether through sin or through delusions and attachments. As with so many things religious, religious people have grossly oversimplified the meaning in suffering, or lack thereof. Some people can experience some growth from some of their suffering. That doesn't explain suffering or say that excessive suffering is a good thing.

 

I like two things Borg did in this book. I like his chapter about how faith is not the same as belief. I like how he describes the transformation that is indeed at the heart of Christianity. Suffering is part of that, but to say that's what suffering is for is like saying the internet exists just for me. Yet so much of religion is about making leaps like that.

 

Even Borg goes on in the rest of this book to focus on beliefs. Some of it is tunnel vision, such as presenting only two possibilities for God, panentheism and something more traditional. In fact the possibilities are countless, and the reality is just one, no matter what anyone believes.

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This is Borg's best. I wrote a long review of it on Amazon. (deleted sentence per Lee Tasey) JosephM

 

I'm sort of an atheist, yet in the moments when I'm able to believe in G-d, it's when I'm reading people like Borg.

 

If you read only one book by Mr. Borg, this is it.

 

Lee

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[

 

L>I am not impressed with those who say suffering should be accepted, as if it were divinely ordained, as if people bring it on themselves, whether through sin or through delusions and attachments. As with so many things religious, religious people have grossly oversimplified the meaning in suffering, or lack thereof. Some people can experience some growth from some of their suffering. That doesn't explain suffering or say that excessive suffering is a good thing.

 

M>Suffering seems to be inherent in creation. Life eats life. Creation evolves through the survival of the fittest. From the viewpoint of the individual this is horrendous and terrible. From the viewpoint of the Whole it is more acceptable. For example, I don't like it when people give me cut flowers, I hate watching them die. Hower when they die on a plant I don't mind so much because I see new flowers take their place. Suffering is less painful when you can identify with the Whole which is how I understand God. Hard times are not so bad when I am connected with other people.

 

Marilyn

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[

Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything.  Just doesn't make any sense.

 

Marilyn

 

The fact that Borg believes in a very immanent (close) God does not mean that God is not doing anything. God is doing all kinds of things right now, right here, and not from a distance as that stupid song said. God is right here, right now in a very gentle and compassionate and sometimes quite tricky manner. We are transformed by the gentleness, the compassion and definitely the trickiness. God has a fantastic sense of humor and loves to play. The more we laugh and play and dance and sing, the more we are acting like God and indeed being God! When we escape the domination of the ego, we become one with God and we play!

Edited by mystictrek
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"Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything. Just doesn't make any sense."

 

Marilyn

 

I like mystictrek's explanation.

 

I would say that God the Father or pure consciousness is the all-pervading reality underlying the universe because it has no frequency or wavelength and is beyond space and time. It is un-created so It is the primary cause of the manifested levels of consciousness outside of pure consciousness. Our physical perceptions reveal only a very small part of the universe in which we live, we can't see the primary cause that creates and supports us. Pure consciousness is the highest reality, and material consciousness; the one we perceive with our senses is the lowest.

 

On suffering I would venture to say:

 

It is our life intelligence that guides us through the crises of birth, puberty, marriage, suffering and death; it also leads us to reflect on our inner life and our relationship to every man and woman. The intellect can give us a glimpse of the spiritual life inside ourselves, help us resist the exterior influences that blind us with passion and help us access thoughts about God or pure consciousness that are totally new, unexpected and beyond our own capacity. The effect of these inspirations is to enable the soul to approach God beyond the material realm in pure consciousness where everything is one; therefore, suffering is a tool, a blessing or a tribulation that prods us to question and know our interconnections and the uniting force or primary cause may it be pure consciousness or as I refer God the Father.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I heard a portion of Frederick Buechner being interviewed by the best interviewer on radio, Diane Rehm. He has a new book out called "Secrets in the Dark : A Life in Sermons" >

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006084248...glance&n=283155

 

He said something profound about finding our purpose. It happens when our deepest joy meets the world's need.

 

I thought this related to my "play" post above. Did you know there's a sign at heaven's gate which says "Children At Play: No Grownups allowed"?

 

Max Wertheimer, a Gestalt pyschologist, defines an adult as "a deteriorated child."

 

You can listen to the interview with Buechner at > http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/

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Thanks for the links. Kibran says, "Children are the teachers." They are fresh from the other side while adults are more conditioned to earth.

 

Children are growing in every direction

Adults stop growing vertically and start growing horizontally

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So, when I talk about "God as mystery," I am talking more from the perspective of knowlege based on "apprehension" than "comprehension."  But, if for a more "comprehension" approach, I would offer the following:

God is the...

Life-Giving Source of Creativity

Unifying Way of Interconnectedness

Abysmally Absolute Other

 

I like that! It goes back to post #39 from last year.

 

This string refuses to die ... and for good reason: Borg is PC at its best. He gives us a clarity about who we are which I have longed for.

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