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The Emergent Church


BeachOfEden

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I mean love is about action isn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe" about love, love only exists within the realm of action. (I thought I was clear??)

 

And as per the last comment, I am always happy to have someone like darby who can challenge and question us without getting nasty or snippy in the process. It is a fine line to tread.

 

 

Merry xmas everybody! I am going to Santa fe in a bit.

 

--des

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I mean love is about action isn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe" about love, love only exists within the realm of action. (I thought I was clear??)

 

okay... We were more in the realm of beliefs (trinity vs. unitarian; pretrib vs. postrib; etc.) in contrast to living out the teachings of Jesus (pacifism on both a personal and world level, taking care of the widow and orphans, etc.) kind of discussion.

 

And as per the last comment, I am always happy to have someone like darby who can challenge and question us without getting nasty or snippy in the process. It is a fine line to tread.

 

"What people believe usually has a great deal to do with what and why they do or don't do."

 

Your statement didn't fit in this particular comment. On top of which the statement is false-- check with your General Psychology textbooks. Humans are quite good at "do as I say not as I do" And Christianity in particular is particularly good and focusing on Dogma instead of focusing on action. You can see it all over this board where ex-fundies etc. struggle with believing in the right things over doing the right things.

 

It seemed more like an opportunity for you to slam what I said.

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It seemed more like an opportunity for you to slam what I said.

 

OA-

 

I wasn't trying to slam...just disagree. Your comment was in response to mine about wondering about different people's views on the board.

 

BTW, hypocrisy is believing one thing, telling others to do that thing, and then doing the opposite yourself. It's not believing, and then acting out of that belief.

 

Just making the point that I think that strong, deeply held beliefs can (and should) cause us to act our our faith....to be "doers of the word, not only hearers."

 

Thanks des...have a great Christmas! We are cleaning up after a Christmas with a 6yr old, 5 yr old, and 1yr old. Help!!!! :)

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It seemed more like an opportunity for you to slam what I said.

 

OA-

 

I wasn't trying to slam...just disagree. Your comment was in response to mine about wondering about different people's views on the board.

 

 

It wasn't you I was responding to, it was des ;)

 

BTW, hypocrisy is believing one thing, telling others to do that thing, and then doing the opposite yourself.  It's not believing, and then acting out of that belief. 

 

Which means that people don't generally do what they believe...

 

Just making the point that I think that strong, deeply held beliefs can (and should) cause us to act our our faith....to be "doers of the word, not only hearers."

 

Which brings us back to the fact that we shouldn't worry so much about what people believe but what they do. Belief is nothing. I want to see action.

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Except October, in my knowledge, I have NEVER knowingly slammed anyone on this board.

It is not my policy to make statements which would degrade or belittle someone else for personal aggrandisement.

 

I didn't even make the statement, "What people believe usually has a great deal to do with what and why they do or don't do." That was darby. (post 22) I respectfully disagree with him on that. But I don't think it was a slam either. It was also darby who was asking about the different views of people on this board. I wouldn't much need to do this as I am a progressive. I am guessing darby is curious as to "what makes us tick". :-)

 

In fact, your statement: "Which brings us back to the fact that we shouldn't worry so much about what people believe but what they do. Belief is nothing. I want to see action." is MUCH closer to what I said: "I mean love is about action isn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe" about love, love only exists within the realm of action. "

 

OTOH, I do think darby has a point now that I think about it. I made the statement above (basically a Golden Rule type statement). It is a statement, policy, etc. If I said it for the sake fo saying it, it is useless. As guidance, it is something. So I suppose your beliefs can guide you to some extent, but only to an extent... Actions have to kick in right away.

 

BTW, I was in Santa Fe, reading all this and I could not remember my password. I was SO frustrated! I knew this was one of those misappropriation errors (comment about a post believing it to be someone else's statement), but there was nothing I could do!

I did, however, have a laugh over "hear our prayer", Cynthia!!! :-)

(Even though it wasn't my quote you were asking to hear our prayer.)

 

 

Happy Christmas!

 

--des

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I don't know what the big controversy is here. Yes, a person's beliefs can -- and should -- directly affect their actions, or a person can act hypocritically in spite of their beliefs. Not everyone puts their beliefs into action, but not everyone is a hypocrite either. "People don't generally do what they believe" doesn't follow from the fact that hypocrisy exists, and that we see a lot of it in the world.

 

Belief isn't nothing, but it's also not everything. If I didn't believe that union with God is the ultimate goal of existence, then why would I act in such a way as to bring that union about? Why would I want to be just, or compassionate, or merciful? On the other hand, if I DO believe that union with God is the ultimate goal of existence, but do nothing about it, then I don't really believe it, now do I? Belief and action aren't two separate things -- they're the contemplative and active dimensions of a single process. Separating and pitting them against each other is an exercise in verbal futility.

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On the other hand, if I DO believe that union with God is the ultimate goal of existence, but do nothing about it, then I don't really believe it, now do I?

 

Double bingo!

 

Heck, Jerry's post about "authentic Christianity" fits right into this discussion. The jist of my (and flow's) comments was that faith (belief) begets action.

 

Beliefs that do not move us to take care of each other are useless. However, action without love to drive that action can lead to resentment and a sense of futility. The two concepts really are bound inextricably together, imo. The problem is that for so many, beliefs do not lead to outward expression of anything.

 

:)

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>Belief isn't nothing, but it's also not everything. If I didn't believe that union with God is the ultimate goal of existence, then why would I act in such a way as to bring that union about? Why would I want to be just, or compassionate, or merciful? On the other hand, if I DO believe that union with God is the ultimate goal of existence, but do nothing about it, then I don't really believe it, now do I? Belief and action aren't two separate things -- they're the contemplative and active dimensions of a single process. Separating and pitting them against each other is an exercise in verbal futility.

 

Once again, Fred, you nailed the concept nicely. I actually don't think that what any of us are saying is so far apart-- once again.

Even though I might conceptualize the whole discussion in a different way than darby will, I think in actual practice what we believe (on this anyways) isn't so far off.

 

 

--des

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  • 2 weeks later...
Except October, in my knowledge, I have NEVER knowingly slammed anyone on this board.

It is not my policy to make statements which would degrade or belittle someone else for personal aggrandisement.

 

I didn't even make the statement, "What people believe usually has a great deal to do with what and why they do or don't do." That was darby. (post 22) I respectfully disagree with him on that. But I don't think it was a slam either. It was also darby who was asking about the different views of people on this board. I wouldn't much need to do this as I am a progressive. I am guessing darby is curious as to "what makes us tick". :-)

 

In fact, your statement: "Which brings us back to the fact that we shouldn't worry so much about what people believe but what they do.  Belief is nothing.  I want to see action." is MUCH closer to what I said: "I mean love is about action isn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe" about love, love only exists within the realm of action. "

 

OTOH,  I do think darby has a point now that I think about it. I made the statement above (basically a Golden Rule type statement). It is a statement, policy, etc. If I said it for the sake fo saying it, it is useless. As guidance, it is something. So I suppose your beliefs can guide you to some extent, but only to an extent... Actions have to kick in right away.

 

BTW, I was in Santa Fe, reading all this and I could not remember my password. I was SO frustrated!  I knew this was one of those misappropriation errors (comment about a post believing it to be someone else's statement), but there was nothing I could do!

I did, however, have a laugh over "hear our prayer", Cynthia!!!  :-)

(Even though it wasn't my quote you were asking to hear our prayer.)

 

 

Happy Christmas!

 

--des

 

 

It has been so long now I'm not even sure what I was upset about...

 

I see many people (family members, Pat Robertsons, George Bush, and friends) who are mostly interested in rather or not you believe the right things and their version of doing is "GWB is a CHristian because he prays every day." My point was that rather or not someone believes in the trinity or that Mary was a Virgin is irrelevant. I don't care what you believe, I care about what you do. Even as progressives we are overly concerned about belief. To me a main part of being progressive is letting go of the nitpicky what do you believes and focus on what do people do. I don't care if you are an atheist as long as you fighting poverty and injustice, etc. etc. As I said before, I've meet athieist who are more Christ-like than Christians.

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