2 Extreme Right Views On Christmas

[BeachOfEden]

Here it is...

 

 

"UNITARIAN GROUP SPLITS, WANTS GOD IN ITS RELIGION"

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Julia Lieblich, Tribune religion reporter. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Apr 21, 2001. pg. 1

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David Burton, attorney, Deist, and a co-founder of a group for Unitarian Universalists who regard themselves as theists is quoted as saying: "The Unitarian tradition...draws inspiration and sustenance from the divine. But Unitarian Universalism as it's practiced today is almost devoid of religious content." He added that most attendees at the Virginia meeting were Unitarian Christians. He said: "Jesus is central to their religion. In most UU congregations, if you got up and started talking about Jesus, you'd be run out on a rail...The UUA is extremely intolerant."

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I have found the Religious Tolerance Network completely agreeable on almost every subject. However, I feel that the following comment made by a member of the RTN is not in harmony with my own findings and experinces:

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"A small group of two dozen Unitarian Universalists met in Virginia on 2001-APR-22. Their goal was to create a renewal organization for those Unitarian Universalists who regard themselves as theists. They appear to have much less concern with social justice issues than does the general UUA membership."

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After I left my own fundamental religious background and became dedicated to researching the subject or Progressive religion I spent a great deal of time in conversing with liberal Christians and Deiests within the UU network. I joined a conversation forum especially for UU Christians ran by the UU minister Scott Wells. Later, Scott Wells would also helped create a UU Christian network called The Magi, especially designed to help UU Christian church get created and suppported. I spent at least 6 years in conversation with these liberal UU Christians and would they expressed to me is that they felt the UUs, as a whole, had developed a strong and ovbious dislike of any deist themed belief system, this including their own minority of UU deists and UU Christians and that the majority favored Humanisists within the vast majority of UUs churches was snuffing out any traits of of their Deist and Judeo-Christian heritage. Moreover, that these Humanist UUs were progressivingly taking steps to omit any mention of even the term "God".

 

It would be very easy for me to many state all this with no backing to prove all these claims made on behalf of UU Deists and UU Christians....if I had not personally observed it with my own eyes. However, I visited 2 UU churches in Southern Califoria for 3 years and I will share with you what I saw.

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The Positive

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Over the 3 year period that I visted these 2 UU churches I DID see alot of POSITIVE things and hear alot of positive teachings. This one UU church I attended had a Natural deist for a Minister and he was a very kind and non-biast man. He was great at mentioning all the faiths within the UU belief system, including Deists and Judeo-Christianity, as well as Humanist view points. After this minister retired a liberal Jew UU women replaced him and she too was good at this. However, within the congeration there was a number of very anti-Deist Humanists who I saw often made faces of disaprovel whenever the UU minister would invite a Deist or Liberal Jew to speak. But also they made very displeased facial expressions when even the UU minister once invited a Native American elder, who when he simply shared his view in a Great Spirit. Whenever the Native American elder simply mentioned the word, "Creator", or "Great Spirit," the Humanists made ovbious facial expressions of disaproval. More so, once the liberal Jew UU minister invited a liberal Rabbi to share his story of how he moved towards liberal Judism. This Rabbi was very down to earth and friendly and said nothing offensive to any group. However, when he merely started to explain the liberal Jewish style of prayerful mediation and song, at least 7 Humanists stood up from their seats and left the church.

 

And once when I visited the historic UU church in Santa Barbara 3 of the UUs there told me that the hostile feelings between Humanists towards Natural deusts and liberal Christians was so strong that more than once the UU minister had to call a special UU meditor to keep the peace. But what about this stated view made that Liberal Christians seem less dedicated to the causes of social justice than Humanist liberals? I am a subscriber to both the Progressive christian Network news as well a subscriber of "Earth Ministry", a progressive Eco-Christian network and newsletter. I have been recieving both of these Progressive Christian resources for 5 years now. The following is taken directly from, "Earth Ministry."

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"In summary, our mission statement calls us as people of faith - seeing something of the Divine in creation - to live reverently and respectfully. It asks us to examine our individual and societal impacts on both the human and non-human world, and to alter our life patterns to reflect God’s loving concern. It calls us to speak out against injustice, to stand with the powerless and voiceless, and to work actively in the causes of justice and peace."

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And this from the Official Network Of Progressive Christianity

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"By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who…

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1. Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus;

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2. Recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us;

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3. Understand the sharing of bread and wine in Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient vision of God's feast for all peoples;

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4. Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to):

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believers and agnostics,

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conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,

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women and men,

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those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,

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those of all races and cultures,

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those of all classes and abilities,

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those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope;

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5. Know that the way we behave toward one another and toward other people is the fullest expression of what we believe;

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6. Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty - more value in questioning than in absolutes;

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7. Form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping one another for the work we feel called to do: striving for peace and justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of his sisters and brothers; and

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8. Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege."

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We known well why the fundamental far religious right oppose the liberal left and Progressive Christians, because they oppose the social justice freedoms that liberal and progressive Christians stand for....

 

But...what could cause Humanists and the like to dislike Progressive and Liberal Christians, and even all liberal God-based faith groups? Especially when these Liberal and Progressive Deisists and Christians ARE fighting for most of the very same social justice freedoms that all liberals and progressive fight for? All of us individuals who have walked away from extremist fundamental faith group backgrounds and thus become progressive in our views of God and of other faiths knows all too well how coming out of such extreme far right backgrounds and upbringings can cause a person to become bitter and distrustful. Because of this, former fundamentalists who have since become progressive, such as ourselves, realize the dangers and biogtry that is cause by extremist black and white thinking. We came to realize how those on the fundamental extreme right see NO tolerant balanced middel way of life. To THEM your are either in agreement with THEM and THEIR interpretations of the Bible..or you must be anti-God/ Jesus hater. Unforuantly there is also a extreme liberal left version of this black and white thinking and with THEM ANYONE who embraces a belief in a Higher Power other than oneself..even 'if' they state they ARE liberal or progressive and even if they do support social justice issues.. to such extreme leftists..such claims are all lies and cannot be true. It is as if to them to state that one believes in some type of Higher Power or God AND is also a liberal or progressive is a contridiction. Ironically, as if a mirror flip-side to the extreme right, the extreme left views things in black and white too. To THEM if you do not embrace and agree with their interpreations of what it means to be a liberal..then your statements and claims to be a liberal or progressive are invalid. To such extreme leftists you are either Humanists and thus on their side..or..you are on the extreme right and a sexist,racist, homophobic, anti-earth and anti-animal welfare right-winger. These types of extreme leftist fundamentalists usually were burned by an extremist Christian fundamental background, and when they leave such a far right background they become deeply angry and bittered and these negative feelings cause them to become dedicated to attacking all form and expresions of theist themed faith.

 

As former members of fundamentalists faith backgrounds, we have seen the extremist thinking in the far right and how sometimes the passion to defend what THEY believe to be the moral way of life has lead to etxreme acts of terror. For example, an extreme right fundamental Christian feels that it is morally wrong to kill unborn babies, so to teach people that it is wrong to kill babies..he blows up an abortion clinic and ends up killing not only his intended targets..but also by standers including a girl scout on her way to grade school, a 75-year old man sitting on a near by park bench feeding the birds, and a young children mother of a 5-year old and 2-year-old. So does this make sense? That this extrem right person kills people to try and prove a point that murder of babies is wrong? Likewise, does it make sense to bomb and kill people of workplaces that they believe is harmful to other living things to prove that harming and killing other living this is wrong? The point is don't become the flipside of the extreme right by becoming a left intolerant answer to fundamentalism.

[darby]

These types of extreme leftist fundamentalists usually were burned by an extremist Christian fundamental background, and when they leave such a far right background they become deeply angry and bittered and these negative feelings cause them to become dedicated to attacking all form and expresions of theist themed faith.

 

I KNEW it had to be the Christian fundamentalists' fault in the end!!

[BeachOfEden]

Darb:

 

I KNEW it had to be the Christian fundamentalists' fault in the end!!

 

And what would be your answer? That somewhere along the line is gotta be a New Age Wicca who brained washed some fundamentalist's mind with their pagen feminism and dreaded liberal theology? Or maybe that the Devil twisted the person's mind into thinking that everyone should actually be treated equal?

[darby]

And what would be your answer?

 

I guess I would simply hold these adults accountable for their anger and bitter and negative feelings...rather than blaming some other group. I'm a big proponent of people taking responsibility for their actions.

[mystictrek]

I have long proclaimed that "Merry Christmas" isn't really an appropriate greeting until the twelve days of Christmas begin on December 25 (or at the Christmas Eve service on 12/24). I would love it if O'Reilly would use his "pulpit" to teach people about the meaning of the 3 Christian seasons of winter: Advent, Christmas and Epiphany. Who decided that Christmas begins on Thanksgiving? It sure wasn't the church. Advent challenges our society to simplify our lives in ways which most of those trying to enforce "Merry Christmas" can't and won't embrace.

 

Tell O'Reilly: It's not Christmas yet! It's Advent. It's time to say: "Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly."

[FredP]

Besides, on another thread here Fred is openly admitting to being looney. Well, I'll admit to that too.

You admit that I'm looney?

 

[FredP]

These types of extreme leftist fundamentalists usually were burned by an extremist Christian fundamental background, and when they leave such a far right background they become deeply angry and bittered and these negative feelings cause them to become dedicated to attacking all form and expresions of theist themed faith.

I KNEW it had to be the Christian fundamentalists' fault in the end!!

Actually, darby, I think Beach is making a pretty accurate observation here. I don't know too many violent anti-theists or anti-Christians who aren't reacting against some kind of extremism of belief in their own backgrounds. Why else would they react so violently? Why not just chuckle and let them do their own thing? We're talking specifically here about rigid, authoritarian types of backgrounds here, not just any old conservative Christianity. Even a well-adjusted liberal can respect a conservative Christian for embodying the very best of their beliefs and ideals, and for making the world a better place.

 

I think the point that was being made is that we often become the very type of thing that we are reacting against, and it is our responsibility to move beyond that kind of adolescent rebellion, and into a constructive spirituality.

[darby]

Fred-

 

My point was that at the very top of Beach's post, I asked myself, "where is this going?" And I bet at the time(if I were a betting man), that at some point in the post, conservatives would be the cause of the problems she was lamenting. And I was right. It was just too predictable.

 

Conservatives can't be responsible for all the problems on the extreme right AND the extreme left.......

Edited December 13, 2005 by darby

[FredP]

My point was that at the very top of Beach's post, I asked myself, "where is this going?"  And I bet at the time(if I were a betting man), that at some point in the post, conservatives would be the cause of the problems she was lamenting.  And I was right.  It was just too predictable.

I do understand what you're saying, and have made my share of harsh comments against people for doing exactly what you're saying. It just seems to me that there is a kind of pendulum effect going on here, and if I were a betting man, I'd bet that, in the development of society and culture and religion, extreme authoritarian rigidity showed up before extreme anti-authoritarian rigidity. (You can't have an anti-X before you have an X, it's a basic law of nature.) But that's just chronology -- both sides are at fault for perpetuating extremism, it doesn't matter who did it first, or who is reacting against whom. I thought the last sentence of the post made that pretty clear: "The point is don't become the flipside of the extreme right by becoming a left intolerant answer to fundamentalism." Just my $.02...

[flowperson]

Besides, on another thread here Fred is openly admitting to being looney. Well, I'll admit to that too.

You admit that I'm looney?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the vernacular of the beltway bandits, I believe we're both "parsing" the same phrase in different ways.

 

I intended to state that I also admit to being looney. In fact others have accused me of being so for about twice as many years as you have possesed this albatross. But, you know, like you I mostly do not care what others think, say, or write about me. I just keep on keeping on and hope things will turn out ok. So far , so good.

 

flow....

[BeachOfEden]

Darby is making sound as if the person who claims they were burned by people in the previous conservative church background...made the whole thing up..as if these people he or she claimed burned them never really existed in the first place. As if the person who made the claim that they were burnt by the church are liers.

 

How do you explainthis claim, Darby? How do you expplian your cliam that it is ALWAYS the person's own fault that they claim they were burnt in a conservative church background? And why do you believe it is always the victim's fault rather than the conservative churches' fault or it's leaders or congergation members?

 

What of these conservative churches where people leave because they claim they were sexually abused? Do you think all these victims are liers too?

[FredP]

Darby is making sound as if the person who claims they were burned by people in the previous conservative church background...made the whole thing up..as if these people he or she claimed burned them never really existed in the first place. As if the person who made the claim that they were burnt by the church are liers.

This isn't isn't even close to what darby is saying. He knows as well as anybody that terrible things happen in conservative Christian churches, when people go astray, and can often drive people away for life. His point was that you seem to be saying that all extreme left-wingers are nothing more than ex-extreme right-wingers -- in other words, that behind every rabid athiest humanist God-hater is someone who got burned by a conservative church. He's not saying that the ones who actually did get burned are lying. He's concerned that you're blaming the extreme right for the extreme left, rather than allowing the extreme left to take responsibility for its own actions. Does that make sense?

[AletheiaRivers]

All I can say is that even though I became an atheist for a short time after I left JW's, I never jumped on the anti-theist bandwagon.

 

Yes, many that are ex-fundamentalists do have a bad taste in their mouth toward God and religion in general. I would say that they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

But not everyone that hates God and religion is an ex-fundamentalist. Many that I know online that hate religion and consider themselves atheist have ever been to a church or any other spiritual gathering. Most of them were raised agnostic or atheist and just grew up believing that those with religious tendencies were crazy.

[des]

I could give an analogy of a person abused as a child. Of course they are not responsible for the abuse they suffered. (Not sure that that is a terribly great analogy, but I think that in some cases there is abuse of some sort.) Anyway, that's not the person's fault. What is the person's responsibility is whether they stay put or grow emotionally. (There might be other factors like the amt. of abuse-- I don't think any "church" abuse, except maybe sexual abuse would be equivalent.) Anyway, a person who stays with their anger is responsible for that. If they are able to see past that and learn to overcome their feelings of rage and use their anger appropriately, then that is taking responsibility.

 

So I agree with darby in some ways, but I don't think that the initial abuse (however much it might have been) is the person's fault. Just how they learn to live with it later on.

 

--des

[BeachOfEden]

True..that a person could be a self-asuming Humanist simply because their perents were..like how on the flipside someone could be a self-righteous loyal member of this or that fundamental church simply perents their perents were..but to each and every Progressive Christian here...I would ask, in your personal experinces and your observations..have this been YOUR experince? That the majority of bitter Humanists/atheists YOU have met, known or talked to..were really bitter towards ANy and ALL theist themed belief systems simply because that is what their perents taught them? Or..has YOUR experinced been that most of the bitter Humanists.atheists YOU have met, known.talked to spoke of being burned by a previous far right fundamental background? Please share your views...

 

What "I" can tell you..is that of all the hostile Humanists "I" have talked to in the UU churches of Ventura and Santa Barbara..THEY said...that THEY were burned by either Southern Baptists (3 of them to be precise in the Ventura UU church) and 2 people said they were burned in the Catholic church prior to the creation of Vatican II...Now these 5 people who actually shared their experinced in front of the whole Ventura UU church...where between the ages of 55 and 80's. Now in 'my' opinion, do "I" think that these burned experinces that these 5 UU Humanists had justifies their intense hostile additude towards ALL theists themed believers..even the Progressive and Liberal ones? NO! Do "I" think that their previous bad experiences in their former fundamental church backgrounds justifies them covering their cars with anti-Christian bumper stickers? Hell no.

 

"I" am NOT making excuses for their far LEFT hatred and bigotries..because to be honest with you..they completely piss me off too..I am merely trying to explain where they get their wrong hostile mentalities towards us. Ok..say a person like on of these 5 UU Humanists I discribed to you...was raised Catholic BEFORE the creation of Vatican II. So they stand up in the UU Church and tell how they hold bitter feelings of being threatened with hellfire threats.....Well, in 'THIER' hostility and ignorence..they FAIL to realize that there ARE LIBERAL and PROGRESSIVE Catholics...that do NOT support such interpretations of hell. Secondanly, such a person would also fail to reason that even the regular catholic Church does NOT teach such views on hell ANYMORE.

 

Or what about the 3 UU's who told about the Southern Baptist church burning them with hellfire threats as children? Well, do they not realize that there ARE Protestant churches that do NOT teach hellfire threat..such as United Presbyterian or United Methodists?

 

Or let's take another example. Let's say that like Des, you were raised in the very fundamental far right version of New Thought Christian Science..and you grow up and say you were burned in it? Well, what about the Unity Church? They are New thought and yet are a PROGRESSIVE version of it. So, what I am getting at here...is whatEVER far right Judeo-Christian themed faith group you were raised in...there IS a Progressive answer to it...so a an unpleasent extremists right upbringing is no excuse for turning against all theists themed beliefs or against a belief in God..and let's say you were raised in a faith group that is smaller in numbers than these others I mentioned such as Mormon or JW? Well, even if these groups don;t have enough Progressive ex members to offer a liberal alternative church..still, most likely someone, somewhere on the web or MySpace HAS created an online group you can join.

 

So, what I think is..we need to communicate to the UU and liberal community at large..that while we share their frustrastions with dealing with their previous far right extreme backgrounds...still..this is NO reason to preach hatred nor biotry towards ALL theist believers nor faith groups..especially towrds their moderate and progressive brthern/sistern that are more often than not fighting for the same social justice issues that they are.

[AletheiaRivers]

I would say that Yes, most atheists I have chatted with became so because of their feelings towards a previous belief system.

 

And as I said in Darby's thread, I think that had I known there were options, I might not have temporarily given up on God and Christianity.

[BeachOfEden]

I would say that Yes, most atheists I have chatted with became so because of their feelings towards a previous belief system.And as I said in Darby's thread, I think that had I known there were options, I might not have temporarily given up on God and Christianity.

 

I agree..because of all this they are likely left paranoid that each and EVERY Christian themed group is out to try and recruite them..and their fear is SO over-the-top that they even fear Christians who embrace the terms PROGRESSIVE and LIBERAL. Inlight of this maybe IS why it would be a good idea for non-fundie Christian groups such as TCPC to set up tables at liberals events..so they can see for themselves that NOT "ALL' theist themed and Christian themed groups are out to get them and try and trick them with hidden bigotries wrapped in Christian wrapping paper.

[des]

Beach, I was trying to put it in as neutral language as possible, re: where blame does or doesn't fall imo. Of course, I think that atheism is a valid choice (not the right one :-)) but a valid one, and one which I think some people need to go thru to go on, as I did.

 

--des