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Heaven & Hell


PaulS

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7 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

BTW - I did get John Shelby Spong's autograph once, (on the inside cover of his latest book at the time) and also a bit of a conversation and a hug!

Maybe I'm a little dumb or "weird", but that's ok with me, at least in this respect! . 🙂 .

add/edit > something weird happened here. The software kept telling me I needed to wait 57 minutes to post this post. I kept doing that and it kept telling me that, so I ended up posting it like 5 times. 

Sorry about that

Weird for me to do, not a judgement on anyone else. I don't believe I have ever gotten an autograph.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just ran into this interview with Bart Ehrman concerning his new book, 'Heaven and Hell'.

They talk about the C-virus a good bit as well as a good number of other things.

Bart seems to be saying that the places in the NT where Jesus is talking about 'hell', are words that are/were put into Jesus's mouth.

I've made a list of these places. Maybe I can post them later.

Hope everyone is doing well and are getting through the pandemic ok. God Bless and/or Best Wishes.

 

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2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Just ran into this interview with Bart Ehrman concerning his new book, 'Heaven and Hell'.

Just received the book the other day and am looking forward to reading it.  Unbelievably, I've found I've never been busier at home during this self-isolation time!  My wife seems to have come up with a list of a thousand jobs we need to do right now around the house! :)

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8 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Just received the book the other day and am looking forward to reading it.  Unbelievably, I've found I've never been busier at home during this self-isolation time!  My wife seems to have come up with a list of a thousand jobs we need to do right now around the house! :)

🙂 Yeah, I've done so much cleaning myself that my hands are burning and cracking, but I'm still not willing to go to the store to get hand cream. I'm learning a lot about cleaning and sanitizing though. Apparently washing ones hands for twenty seconds is so that the soap can "latch" onto the virus and then enable it to be rinsed away. Regular soaps don't actually kill the virus themselves.

If you do find some time to read, and find a few good passages that you really like, post them for us if you can, even scan a page and post it if that's ok with the forums guidelines.

Best Wishes , (and prayers if you want them) to you and  your wife and boys. Hope you all keep doing well.

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15 hours ago, PaulS said:

Just received the book the other day and am looking forward to reading it.  

I might hold on the book for now and will eventually get it as a reference. While the detailed info will be good to bolster one's understanding, I have not accepted the idea of an eternal hell for quite some time now.

However, what continues to intrigue me (and many) is, regardless of the biblical take or even the teachings of Jesus, the question persists as to 'what happens?" after death. Do we go with Jesus and believe in an earthly Kingdom or do we lean Greek and go with the belief in a spirit (soul?) in another dimension or the next life? And what kind of 21st C understanding do we bring to the question?

Of course I don't think we will ever know but the speculation might have something to say about how we view this life and how to live.

 

As for the chores around the house, I agree. I worked on a huge pine (for days) that had crashed to the ground before calling the 'experts' in to do the really dangerous stuff. Then there are the gardens and the deck and touch up painting around window - and that before we even turn out attention to the inside.

Next week our dining room becomes a studio of sorts as my wife, a math and art teacher, begins to produce lessons over different internet platforms for her students. Luckily I am beyond all that and can do some reading - if I can avoid some of the chores in order to keep the noise level down (a rather convenient rationale).

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10 hours ago, thormas said:

Of course I don't think we will ever know but the speculation might have something to say about how we view this life and how to live.

I think it's a lot simpler than that.  One doesn't need to speculate on what may come after because a) hell is a man-made concept used to try an influence others to live how others think they should, and it doesn't exist, so nothing to think about there, and b) therefore a promise of a heaven applies to everybody anyway, no matter how they live their lives (unless we start going down the path of 'levels' of reward and 'classes' of those in said heaven).

Personally, I think one is more than capable of living a fruitful and worthy life without any supernatural clickbait.

Of course, speculation for speculation's sake can be of interest.

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13 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think it's a lot simpler than that.  One doesn't need to speculate on what may come after because a) hell is a man-made concept used to try an influence others to live how others think they should, and it doesn't exist, so nothing to think about there, and b) therefore a promise of a heaven applies to everybody anyway, no matter how they live their lives (unless we start going down the path of 'levels' of reward and 'classes' of those in said heaven).

Personally, I think one is more than capable of living a fruitful and worthy life without any supernatural clickbait.

Of course, speculation for speculation's sake can be of interest.

Well it could be said all that religion is 'man-made' or human perspective but the question then is, does our perception say something about the reality. Leaving that big question aside for now the question remains in the face of injustice here is there any righting of the scales after death? Such 'justice' is not a concern for me, what intrigues me (and others) is if their is an ultimate oneness to all reality (as many here have seem to accept or allow for), how can that which is 'evil' be part of 'God' who is thought to be the Good or Love or Holy?

I believe that there is 'universal salvation' but it seems apparent that we don't all move from the shackles of selfishness to selflessness in this one lifetime. So, inquiring minds want to 'know' what this might mean for human beings. I think that Ehrman and others argue against an eternal hell of torment but do they rule out a 'temporary' hell or period of cleansing or simply continued growth and development in the One? So there is something to think about with the concept of hell - although for me and others it is radically different than traditional beliefs.

Since Christianity sees some responsibility on the part of man (faith and works) for his growth in God and since most of us don't finalize that in a mere 70+ years (considerable less for many also) it would seem, logically, that that responsibility and 'challenge' must continue after this short life. 

There are no levels or classes in such questions, only a question that the concepts of a temporary hell or a purgatory might speak to this.

I also think one can live a fruitful life with religion but I further think that religion can make a life fruitful also (and perhaps even more fruitful). And most serious religious thinkers are not interested in clickbait.

So for some it is speculation for its own sake and for others the speculation has more to it.

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On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

Well it could be said all that religion is 'man-made' or human perspective but the question then is, does our perception say something about the reality. Leaving that big question aside for now the question remains in the face of injustice here is there any righting of the scales after death? Such 'justice' is not a concern for me, what intrigues me (and others) is if their is an ultimate oneness to all reality (as many here have seem to accept or allow for), how can that which is 'evil' be part of 'God' who is thought to be the Good or Love or Holy?

Well, I think that's the thing - God isn't good, love or holy.  They are all just human attributes and emotions that we apply with our human mind based on our human experiences.  Rather, it seems to me, God just is - good and 'bad'.  Evil happens, as does good.  It's just all part and parcel of existence.  Our 'perception' is what makes us pick sides on these issues.

On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

I believe that there is 'universal salvation' but it seems apparent that we don't all move from the shackles of selfishness to selflessness in this one lifetime. So, inquiring minds want to 'know' what this might mean for human beings. I think that Ehrman and others argue against an eternal hell of torment but do they rule out a 'temporary' hell or period of cleansing or simply continued growth and development in the One? So there is something to think about with the concept of hell - although for me and others it is radically different than traditional beliefs.

Other inquiring minds have sought and found the answer - it means nothing for human beings.  We live, we die.

I thin Erhman simpy takes a sensible agnostic view on things such as 'temporary' Hell.  I don't think there is any biblical evidence to support any such Christian notion, but Bart wouldn't rule it out the same as he probably doesn't rule out Thor or Zeus, he just 'think's they don't exist.

On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

Since Christianity sees some responsibility on the part of man (faith and works) for his growth in God and since most of us don't finalize that in a mere 70+ years (considerable less for many also) it would seem, logically, that that responsibility and 'challenge' must continue after this short life. 

Of course, this all depends on ones view of what God is and what personal view one has of 'growing' into God.  I don't think it is necessarily 'logical' though to deduce that because Christianity understands that there is a responsibility on humanity to grow in God that therefore it stands that as we aren't perfect by Christianity's understanding that therefore there must be more after this life.  I would say you are perfectly human now and when you die, your consciousness ceases.

On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

There are no levels or classes in such questions, only a question that the concepts of a temporary hell or a purgatory might speak to this.

But indeed levels and classes are determined by such thinking.   This thinking starts trying to determine what type of person will deserve 'temporary' hell and what type won't.  This leads to judgement about actions and behaviors, in groups and out groups, those that make the grade and those that don't.  We do this as a perfectly natural human behavior, but that's what we do as perfect humans.

On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

I also think one can live a fruitful life with religion but I further think that religion can make a life fruitful also (and perhaps even more fruitful). And most serious religious thinkers are not interested in clickbait.

I think they are interested in clickbait, they just don't understand why they are or how it works.  The temptation of believing in an eternal existence is so great that most cannot accept non-existence after death - enter religion.  The ego doing what the ego does.

On 4/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, thormas said:

So for some it is speculation for its own sake and for others the speculation has more to it.

Yes, certainly the speculation means more to some.  May they find peace.

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15 hours ago, PaulS said:

Well, I think that's the thing - God isn't good, love or holy.  They are all just human attributes and emotions that we apply with our human mind based on our human experiences.  Rather, it seems to me, God just is - good and 'bad'.  Evil happens, as does good.  It's just all part and parcel of existence.  Our 'perception' is what makes us pick sides on these issues.

As I said, "God is thought to be" these things - however, in most expressions of religion this (God as good, love, holy) is the human perspective/insight and also is what certain religions take to be 'revealed truth.'  Then the further question, as noted, is does the human insight say something about the reality (God). On another note, I don't think that the good just happens and I allow that some evil does (earthquakes are 'evil' if you're living in the shadow of the mountain that explodes) but human evil doesn't 'just happen.' It seems that there is choice and culpability for good and evil *of course this opens another discussion). 

15 hours ago, PaulS said:

Other inquiring minds have sought and found the answer - it means nothing for human beings.  We live, we die.

I thin Erhman simpy takes a sensible agnostic view on things such as 'temporary' Hell.  I don't think there is any biblical evidence to support any such Christian notion, but Bart wouldn't rule it out the same as he probably doesn't rule out Thor or Zeus, he just 'think's they don't exist.

Well that is acceptable but, for me, it simply ends the inquiry rather than pursues it: to each his/her own. If we live, we die - does that mean you disagree with views discussed here that there is an ultimate oneness?

I wasn't speaking about Ehrman's personal belief but what he found in his research and I am still reading on that. I haven't read the book but I thought it was said that there was an acceptance of hell, not as eternal torment but as temporary 'punishment.' Again, have to check.

15 hours ago, PaulS said:

Of course, this all depends on ones view of what God is and what personal view one has of 'growing' into God.  I don't think it is necessarily 'logical' though to deduce that because Christianity understands that there is a responsibility on humanity to grow in God that therefore it stands that as we aren't perfect by Christianity's understanding that therefore there must be more after this life.  I would say you are perfectly human now and when you die, your consciousness ceases.

Sure but I'm speaking from a Christian perspective. It certainly seems logical but, again, to each his own. 

Consciousness ceases - so no oneness? 

15 hours ago, PaulS said:

But indeed levels and classes are determined by such thinking.   This thinking starts trying to determine what type of person will deserve 'temporary' hell and what type won't.  This leads to judgement about actions and behaviors, in groups and out groups, those that make the grade and those that don't.  We do this as a perfectly natural human behavior, but that's what we do as perfect humans.

Groups are not in or out is such a view, it is an individual effort or actualization (done in the larger communities of man) but one doesn't 'merit' hell because they are  part of a group, or class or level. My thinking doesn't start trying to make such determinations and since we don't walk in the shoes of others, we cannot (and should not) determine their fate (heaven or hell). As said before, judgement can be over the rightness of an action but it is near impossible to know all the reasons why one acts as they do (culpability).

15 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think they are interested in clickbait, they just don't understand why they are or how it works.  The temptation of believing in an eternal existence is so great that most cannot accept non-existence after death - enter religion.  The ego doing what the ego does.

No not all are and such generalizations are prejudice, are they not?

Some of us don't believe in 'eternal life' because we succumb to some kind of temptation, we believe because it is all of a piece with how we understand man, life, meaning, God, oneness. 

Death is death and awaits us all. It is not that I fear 'non-existence after death' - it is that I think such a stance is non-sensical and casts all life, all existence, as meaningless. Like Sisyphus in hades, all is fruitless. Regardless of all our efforts, all our dreams, the lives of our children, our dreams for our children, is spite of all our rationalizations, in spite of our belief that we gave it meaning - it never meant anything, it never actually mattered. Absurdity upon absurdity, thy name is man, thy name is life. Even that existentialist who, in the face of such absurdity, seeks and demands to create his own meaning, if he is honest, realizes that, in the end, it was meaningless. It was all for naught and man, any man, all men, all life - meant nothing!

If I did believe this, I too would fight against the absurdity, I too would create meaning but I would also be honest enough to realize it is all meaningless, no different that if it never happened.

 

And on that pleasant note, I go out to tend the gardens.

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11 hours ago, thormas said:

Well that is acceptable but, for me, it simply ends the inquiry rather than pursues it: to each his/her own. If we live, we die - does that mean you disagree with views discussed here that there is an ultimate oneness?

I see no issue with ending an inquiry when it is answered.  But each to their own - of course one can inquire into life after death for the rest of their lives without finding another answer or conversely settling for one that suits their beliefs.

Life after death is not a requirement for ultimate oneness.  We all came from the same atoms as a result of the big bang and those atoms will continue to exist long after our consciousness shuts down.   That is the ultimate oneness - we all come from the same stardust.

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I wasn't speaking about Ehrman's personal belief but what he found in his research and I am still reading on that. I haven't read the book but I thought it was said that there was an acceptance of hell, not as eternal torment but as temporary 'punishment.' Again, have to check.

I'm not aware of him having this view, but haven't read everything Erhman or finished this book yet.

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Consciousness ceases - so no oneness? 

See above.  Ultimate oneness doesn't need consciousness - it just is.  I think it is the ego in our consciousness that tells us there cannot be any oneness if one's ego/consciousness ceases to exist.

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Groups are not in or out is such a view, it is an individual effort or actualization (done in the larger communities of man) but one doesn't 'merit' hell because they are  part of a group, or class or level. My thinking doesn't start trying to make such determinations and since we don't walk in the shoes of others, we cannot (and should not) determine their fate (heaven or hell). As said before, judgement can be over the rightness of an action but it is near impossible to know all the reasons why one acts as they do (culpability).

You miss the point - the fact that some think there is a level of judgement, punishment or correction required means we are already judging other's actions and creating those that 'qualify' for heaven directly and those that don't.  Even 'degrees' of temporary torment or punishment or cleansing or whatever you want to call it, calls for judgment to be made and it is a typical human behavior that we want to start establishing what we think those actions and behaviors need to be.    It is human judgment - all completely natural and part of our being, but something very human nonetheless in my view.

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No not all are and such generalizations are prejudice, are they not?

I don't think it's a prejudice to acknowledge that our ego drives us to certain ways of thinking.  Its a pretty major Buddhist concept that our egos drive us to think like we do.  

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Some of us don't believe in 'eternal life' because we succumb to some kind of temptation, we believe because it is all of a piece with how we understand man, life, meaning, God, oneness. 

I'm not sure what you personally believe in concerning eternal life but I wonder if you actually know yourself.  I mean apart from saying you think there is some sort of eternal life, that seems to me to be about as far as you have gotten.  So it seems to me you can't say you understand man, life, meaning, God, oneness in such a way that it answers your question about what comes after death because you simply can't answer that question.  So you seem to defend believing in an afterlife without actually understanding what that afterlife even looks like.  It seems cart before the horse to me.

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Death is death and awaits us all. It is not that I fear 'non-existence after death' - it is that I think such a stance is non-sensical and casts all life, all existence, as meaningless. Like Sisyphus in hades, all is fruitless. Regardless of all our efforts, all our dreams, the lives of our children, our dreams for our children, is spite of all our rationalizations, in spite of our belief that we gave it meaning - it never meant anything, it never actually mattered. Absurdity upon absurdity, thy name is man, thy name is life. Even that existentialist who, in the face of such absurdity, seeks and demands to create his own meaning, if he is honest, realizes that, in the end, it was meaningless. It was all for naught and man, any man, all men, all life - meant nothing!

I don't understand why you or others think that if they cease to have consciousness that their life has no meaning.  You lose consciousness every night - did that day mean nothing to anybody because you are presently not conscious during your sleep?  Of course not.  

When I die and my consciousness ceases, my children will live on.  People I have met will continue.  Things I have done in and of the world will also continue along their way.  How does that make my life meaningless?  If you could be certain right now that there is no afterlife, would you straight away turn around and say to your family - "My life has been a waste of time?"

But more to the point, I think it is more about being at peace with one's non-existence after death.  Clearly a lot of people don't want loss of consciousness to be the end so they possibly conflate meaning for this life with continued existence.  I don't.

I think of all the people who have gone before me - Buddha, Jesus, Einstein, Galileo, Plato etc etc.  I hardly think their life is meaningless just because they no longer have an existing consciousness.  If there is no afterlife, do you think Jesus' life was meaningless to humanity, that it was a waste of time to tell people to treat others with love?  Galileo was just wasting his time determining that the earth rotated around the sun?  The higher learnings that Plato shared with the world are of no regard?

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If I did believe this, I too would fight against the absurdity, I too would create meaning but I would also be honest enough to realize it is all meaningless, no different that if it never happened.

To me, it seems the ultimate selfishness if saying one's life has no meaning if they can't exist beyond it.  Such a view selfishly disregards what their life has provided to others, what influence they have had on others, how they have helped others grow and develop.  How on earth could you consider that meaningless just because you personally can no longer look back on it?

To me you seem to be saying "I am only going to live a 'good' life if there is something in it for me afterwards.  No afterlife - well I am going to live my life differently then".  If there is in fact no afterlife - do you wish you had lived your life differently?  That would seem to suggest you don't think you have lived your best life. Do you consider your life to have been a waste of time?

Perhaps this is where we differ - you seem to conflate opinion with honesty.  That's not to call you a liar, but many honest opinions are incorrect.  I am being honest when I say that I believe I will cease to exist when I die, but I do not regard my life here and now to be meaningless.  Do you think I am lying or otherwise not being honest?

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13 hours ago, PaulS said:

Life after death is not a requirement for ultimate oneness.  We all came from the same atoms as a result of the big bang and those atoms will continue to exist long after our consciousness shuts down.   That is the ultimate oneness - we all come from the same stardust.

It seems to me, while we all come from the same stardust and return to such in the concept of time, and brain consciousness and memory appears to shut down, the Life that animated such, which is One with all and experienced as awareness without thought ...  continues. That is Life. That is God.

13 hours ago, PaulS said:

See above.  Ultimate oneness doesn't need consciousness - it just is.  I think it is the ego in our consciousness that tells us there cannot be any oneness if one's ego/consciousness ceases to exist.

It seems to me, ultimate oneness is consciousness.  Ego is not consciousness but rather an illusory  created person by consciousness itself with a beginning and end. Consciousness is at its simplest, awareness of existence, which is Life itself with or without the illusion of a person. 

13 hours ago, PaulS said:

 

 the fact that some think there is a level of judgement, punishment or correction required means we are already judging other's actions and creating those that 'qualify' for heaven directly and those that don't.  Even 'degrees' of temporary torment or punishment or cleansing or whatever you want to call it, calls for judgment to be made and it is a typical human behavior that we want to start establishing what we think those actions and behaviors need to be.    It is human judgment - all completely natural and part of our being, but something very human nonetheless in my view.

Yes. i would agree.

13 hours ago, PaulS said:

 

I don't think it's a prejudice to acknowledge that our ego drives us to certain ways of thinking.  Its a pretty major Buddhist concept that our egos drive us to think like we do.  

Yes. i would agree

13 hours ago, PaulS said:

I don't understand why you or others think that if they cease to have consciousness that their life has no meaning.  You lose consciousness every night - did that day mean nothing to anybody because you are presently not conscious during your sleep?  Of course not. 

To me, Life is its own meaning. One can assign whatever meaning to this life as they wish but but ultimately this thing most call life is more entertainment than meaning, much like a movie and filled with drama. To me, consciousness is not lost at night, it merely loses the concept of time. Awareness remains and when not in deep sleep awareness can be conscious. In my view, most of the time while awake we think we are conscious but in reality we are unconsciously following the conditioned programmed mind.

13 hours ago, PaulS said:

But more to the point, I think it is more about being at peace with one's non-existence after death.  Clearly a lot of people don't want loss of consciousness to be the end so they possibly conflate meaning for this life with continued existence.  I don't.

I think of all the people who have gone before me - Buddha, Jesus, Einstein, Galileo, Plato etc etc.  I hardly think their life is meaningless just because they no longer have an existing consciousness.  If there is no afterlife, do you think Jesus' life was meaningless to humanity, that it was a waste of time to tell people to treat others with love?  Galileo was just wasting his time determining that the earth rotated around the sun?  The higher learnings that Plato shared with the world are of no regard?

To me, it seems the ultimate selfishness if saying one's life has no meaning if they can't exist beyond it.  Such a view selfishly disregards what their life has provided to others, what influence they have had on others, how they have helped others grow and develop.  How on earth could you consider that meaningless just because you personally can no longer look back on it?

 

Humans seem to me to be the only ones obsessed with finding meaning. Nature just does its thing. Perhaps we can learn from it. The tree, the plant , the insect, the reptile goes about its business living, changing form (dying), and evolving through procreation. We do the same and It seems to me requiring meaning need not be a requirement to live. Just be. 

Heaven and hell seem to be products of the mind. To the living, they may be everyday realities experienced by the thinking mind. To each his own but baby steps as we evolve past the mind created illusions of life. There seems to me to be much truth in the saying .... we (our minds) make our own heaven or hell here on earth. Pleasure and pain may be present in all living but life to me, requires no particular meaning that is not in Life itself. Afterlife? That would, in the mind's terms, presume there was a Beforelife. One , both,  none ... take your pick. Seems to me it isn't really that important. It is what it is. Live life.

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17 hours ago, PaulS said:

I see no issue with ending an inquiry when it is answered.  But each to their own - of course one can inquire into life after death for the rest of their lives without finding another answer or conversely settling for one that suits their beliefs.

Life after death is not a requirement for ultimate oneness.  We all came from the same atoms as a result of the big bang and those atoms will continue to exist long after our consciousness shuts down.   That is the ultimate oneness - we all come from the same stardust.

 

Of course that assumes it is ended yet, seemingly, for most human beings it is not. "Settling for...." does not appeal to most, including me.                                                                                                                  Ok on Oneness yet it seems the oneness of atoms - a bit boring for action packed human beings who give meaning to much of what they do.

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

You miss the point - the fact that some think there is a level of judgement, punishment or correction required means we are already judging other's actions and creating those that 'qualify' for heaven directly and those that don't.  Even 'degrees' of temporary torment or punishment or cleansing or whatever you want to call it, calls for judgment to be made and it is a typical human behavior that we want to start establishing what we think those actions and behaviors need to be.    It is human judgment - all completely natural and part of our being, but something very human nonetheless in my view.

I'm not so much interested in what others think as I am presenting my view as you are yours. 

However merely because we give some thought to 'correction' doesn't mean we have anything to do with it. It either is or is not and no one knows, It is not up to anyone living who 'qualifies' or not, again it is merely some people giving thought to possible scenarios. There may have been some in the past who condemned groups or said they knew who qualified but that is not the argument here nor is it my stance.

A temporary hell (so to speak) does not call for a human judgement since, it such exists, it is out of human hands being on the far side of death. However another way to understand it is that it is simply part of the human journey. Such journeying or such a process of trying to be better, to improve and 'suffering' in or for that endeavor is something most human beings experience is 'this' life. I think of the athlete, not even an elite athlete but a simple high school kid who works his/her butt off and suffers in the effort. Part of the journey.

I agree it is human 'judgment' but whether or not it reflects reality is the unanswerable question: I suspect it does touch reality, you do not.

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

don't think it's a prejudice to acknowledge that our ego drives us to certain ways of thinking.  Its a pretty major Buddhist concept that our egos drive us to think like we do.  

What is prejudicial is you stating that they "are interested in clickbait." Not all are, I am not - so you pre-judge.

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

I'm not sure what you personally believe in concerning eternal life but I wonder if you actually know yourself.  I mean apart from saying you think there is some sort of eternal life, that seems to me to be about as far as you have gotten.  So it seems to me you can't say you understand man, life, meaning, God, oneness in such a way that it answers your question about what comes after death because you simply can't answer that question.  So you seem to defend believing in an afterlife without actually understanding what that afterlife even looks like.  It seems cart before the horse to me.

 

Of course not -  we can't see 'eternal life' and no one has returned to give us the info. I believe that life is eternal (and not just a re-gathering of atoms) and that man is born to share in that Life. Again such a belief is a part of what I believe about God. The details are beyond me and actually I don't really care nor do I think much about it except in the general terms we have been discussing. For example there seems to be a process or journey in this life and it is apparent that for many/most it is unfinished at death so the idea of a continuation of that journey until completion makes sense to many, to me.  And, unlike you (which is fine), I believe that process is our 'humanization' or becoming fully human and to do so we move from selfish concerns to a less and less selfish stance in the world. So the idea of a continued purging of selfishness makes some sense to me for that is the way (in this belief) to fuller life (Prodigal Son story). I actually don't buy the idea of any hell (eternal or temporary) but the idea of a continuing effort or purging until one is complete is something that is experienced by us (think of the athlete)  even now. It is our way, the way we learn and grow and 'make something of ourselves.' And the idea of 'life after death' speaks to the finalization of this effort. 

As I don't 'actually know myself' all that God is, so too I don't actually know myself what life after death or eternal life (two different things I think) is. However in that, I think we do have an understanding of God, man, meaning, life and all else that is actually important.

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

I'm not sure what you personally believe in concerning eternal life but I wonder if you actually know yourself.  I mean apart from saying you think there is some sort of eternal life, that seems to me to be about as far as you have gotten.  So it seems to me you can't say you understand man, life, meaning, God, oneness in such a way that it answers your question about what comes after death because you simply can't answer that question.  So you seem to defend believing in an afterlife without actually understanding what that afterlife even looks like.  It seems cart before the horse to me.

Sleep is temporary, death not so much. It is not so much that your consciousness ceases it is that the span of your life (and again for some it is only a matter of a few years) is less than a blip's blip in time and space as is the life of all you know and when you are gone, when they are gone, when all are gone - it never mattered that you were. None of it continues. All your efforts, all your cares, all that you built is for naught for there is nothing. Whether you lived or not doesn't matter: you were (not you personally) a mistake, a fluke and whether you existed or not didn't matter. What if X existed instead of you? Wouldn't matter as it would be his kids, the people he knew, the things he had done, perhaps even him on this site - it wouldn't matter because that short existence means nothing in the endless timeline that is the cosmos: it meant nothing, it was never anything. It is absurd.

You can be at peace all you want - again it doesn't matter: whether you are or not at peace doesn't matter. Again, it is not about consciousness. In your scenarios, all the people who have gone before you are dead and some forgotten by many already and when the last one of us goes, it is over there is no one to think about Jesus, Einstein, Plato. So what if they were, so what if they were meaningful to some or even many - it doesn't even register in the life of the cosmos. Whether they were or were not, doesn't matter. 

As I mentioned if I agreed with your position I would fight the absurdity but I would also acknowledge that despite all my efforts, it mattered not. The absurdity of such an existence is that it never mattered. 

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

To me, it seems the ultimate selfishness if saying one's life has no meaning if they can't exist beyond it.  Such a view selfishly disregards what their life has provided to others, what influence they have had on others, how they have helped others grow and develop.  How on earth could you consider that meaningless just because you personally can no longer look back on it?

To me you seem to be saying "I am only going to live a 'good' life if there is something in it for me afterwards.  No afterlife - well I am going to live my life differently then".  If there is in fact no afterlife - do you wish you had lived your life differently?  That would seem to suggest you don't think you have lived your best life. Do you consider your life to have been a waste of time?

Perhaps this is where we differ - you seem to conflate opinion with honesty.  That's not to call you a liar, but many honest opinions are incorrect.  I am being honest when I say that I believe I will cease to exist when I die, but I do not regard my life here and now to be meaningless.  Do you think I am lying or otherwise not being honest?

Ultimate selfishness or the ultimate magnanimity - it matters not if one actually critically considers your position. Even your protestations of ultimate selfishness and not disregarding what one life provides for others or their influence or helping others to grow is meaningless in the continuing existence of the atoms (and in the time beyond time of the cosmos), Whether you existed or not, whether I existed or not - it didn't matter: the atoms continue to exist either way, regardless of us. To think otherwise is to say there is meaning when there is not: this is absurdity.

A few correction: one does not believe in a life after death so they can look back - actually that never entered my mind (nor do I think it plays a part in 'life after death') but it does play nicely in some movies. And the 'after life' is not the reason to live a good life: one lives such a live of love because they believe that is what 'this' is all about, they believe that is the meaning of life and it gives and enhances life and is the way to, as Jesus said, the 'abundance of life.' And some believe that abundance is not taken back or lost in death but enhanced, i.e. Abundant!

There is no mistake of conflating opinion with honesty. I fully recognize this is my opinion or belief and that neither of us knows, no one knows what actually occurs after death. I get that this is your honest opinion just as I have presented my honest opinion. The only thing I have done is to consider your position and state what it actually means when carefully considered: an atom is an atom is an atom and according to you, when you die, when all die, the atoms continue - and this happens regardless of who you were or what you did, felt or thought. Your atoms, the atoms of the guy down the street, the atoms of Jesus or Einstein or Hitler or the Boston Strangler - doesn't matter: all die and the atoms continue regardless. What the particular atoms of an individual man did has no bearing on the continued existence of the atoms; they have no bearing on anything (if they do then you are beginning to move to my position).  Therefore what any of us do, our entire life, ultimately doesn't matter (i.e. meaningless), doesn't impact the timeless cosmos and didn't change a thing: the atoms continue to exist.  Whether one lived selfishly or lovingly means nothing:  the atoms return and your little piece of it is so minuscule that it is not even notice in the timelessness of the cosmos and it certainly doesn't impact the continued existence of the atoms. So what does it matter what anyone did? It doesn't and to think it does is absurdity upon absurdity.

I don't think you're lying - that never even entered into the discussion. That you believe your opinion is obvious. All I'm saying is in this position one can say their life is meaningful all they want and actually, honestly believe it. It doesn't matter, it is not and to think it is brings us to (in this position) absurdity. 

 

Again, I don't accept this position.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JosephM said:

It seems to me, while we all come from the same stardust and return to such in the concept of time, and brain consciousness and memory appears to shut down, the Life that animated such, which is One with all and experienced as awareness without thought ...  continues. That is Life. That is God.

 

As we have discussed before, this position intrigues me: what is God, why animate anything/everything and if all shuts down how is God One with all?

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4 hours ago, thormas said:
 

As we have discussed before, this position intrigues me: what is God, why animate anything/everything and if all shuts down how is God One with all?

God is Life. Some might say unlimited energy. The one Life that animates all of form. The substrate of your very perceived existence. Why animate anything/everything? Because that is the nature of Life and creation. The animation is illusory as in not as it seems to the senses . Life doesn't shut down, it merely changes form to the unmanifest and gives that appearance to form over the concept of time . We refer to that animation as life (small l ) as that is temporal but Life (big L) is eternal and the Father of all that is both seen and unseen. Feel that energy, aliveness and Life that is doing the animation.

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19 hours ago, JosephM said:

Humans seem to me to be the only ones obsessed with finding meaning. Nature just does its thing. Perhaps we can learn from it. The tree, the plant , the insect, the reptile goes about its business living, changing form (dying), and evolving through procreation. We do the same and It seems to me requiring meaning need not be a requirement to live. Just be. 

Indeed, we do seem to make life a lot more complicated than it needs to be! I was standing on the beach just yesterday thinking this whilst I watched a dolphin continually launching itself out of the water.  It was simply living in the now and enjoying life,  I doubt it ever considers 'afterlife'.  I wondered too if we could learn a lot from nature - we who generally animals as less intelligent than ourselves, but sometimes I do wonder who is having the last laugh.

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16 hours ago, thormas said:
Sleep is temporary, death not so much. It is not so much that your consciousness ceases it is that the span of your life (and again for some it is only a matter of a few years) is less than a blip's blip in time and space as is the life of all you know and when you are gone, when they are gone, when all are gone - it never mattered that you were. None of it continues. All your efforts, all your cares, all that you built is for naught for there is nothing. Whether you lived or not doesn't matter: you were (not you personally) a mistake, a fluke and whether you existed or not didn't matter. What if X existed instead of you? Wouldn't matter as it would be his kids, the people he knew, the things he had done, perhaps even him on this site - it wouldn't matter because that short existence means nothing in the endless timeline that is the cosmos: it meant nothing, it was never anything. It is absurd.

For me personally, I think the absurdity is in saying that unless one lives forever, then their life has no meaning.  Like I said, try saying that to your family and I imagine your instant reaction is that you wouldn't feel your life has no meaning.  Subsequently I can't consider it absurd, but understand that you do.  Each to their own.

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You can be at peace all you want - again it doesn't matter: whether you are or not at peace doesn't matter. Again, it is not about consciousness. In your scenarios, all the people who have gone before you are dead and some forgotten by many already and when the last one of us goes, it is over there is no one to think about Jesus, Einstein, Plato. So what if they were, so what if they were meaningful to some or even many - it doesn't even register in the life of the cosmos. Whether they were or were not, doesn't matter. 

I guess similarly, it doesn't matter whether you want to live forever or not.  The cosmos will do what the cosmos does and if that means termination of consciousness, then that's what it means, irrespective if you should consider your life therefore meaningless..  So again to me, the only absurdity seems to be the thinking that it's absurd that our life has no meaning unless we live forever.  I accept that's not how you feel about it though.

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The only thing I have done is to consider your position and state what it actually means when carefully considered: an atom is an atom is an atom and according to you, when you die, when all die, the atoms continue - and this happens regardless of who you were or what you did, felt or thought. Your atoms, the atoms of the guy down the street, the atoms of Jesus or Einstein or Hitler or the Boston Strangler - doesn't matter: all die and the atoms continue regardless. What the particular atoms of an individual man did has no bearing on the continued existence of the atoms; they have no bearing on anything (if they do then you are beginning to move to my position).  Therefore what any of us do, our entire life, ultimately doesn't matter (i.e. meaningless), doesn't impact the timeless cosmos and didn't change a thing: the atoms continue to exist.  Whether one lived selfishly or lovingly means nothing:  the atoms return and your little piece of it is so minuscule that it is not even notice in the timelessness of the cosmos and it certainly doesn't impact the continued existence of the atoms. So what does it matter what anyone did? It doesn't and to think it does is absurdity upon absurdity.

You seem to love this word absurdity.  The definition of absurdity is "the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable".  I don't think what I have discussed is at all 'wildly unreasonable or even ridiculous', just because others think their lives have no meaning if they can't live forever, particularly in the face of those people not knowing what any life after death even looks like, but at best, imagining what it could be because as you say, your logic leads you there.  

I think we live, we die.  My life has meaning whilst I am alive.  That my life ends at some point and things moves on doesn't render my life meaningless.  It has meaning to me and others.  When those memories move on and perhaps nobody exists anymore, those things still have meaning, it's just that I or anybody else is not around to consider such meaning anymore.  To me, that doesn't distract from the meaning that was.  I think it is the ego that doesn't want to 'let go' and accept that it won't exist anymore.  You think that's absurd - I don't.  Peace.

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19 hours ago, JosephM said:

Humans seem to me to be the only ones obsessed with finding meaning. Nature just does its thing. Perhaps we can learn from it. The tree, the plant , the insect, the reptile goes about its business living, changing form (dying), and evolving through procreation. We do the same and It seems to me requiring meaning need not be a requirement to live. Just be. 

Another thing that comes to mind about this, is I wonder if the meaninglessness of life as Thormas imagines it to be if there is no afterlife, applied to the likes of other hominins millions of years ago that preceded us.  It's hard to imagine those 'lesser' species in our evolution (for instance when they were swinging from trees) as thinking it would be absurd if they didn't live for ever after their short span on earth.  It seems to me this train of thought has developed as we grew our brains and became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years.  It does seem like a man-made development rather than any reality that has been lying in the wings waiting until we get to a certain spiritual or mental capacity to reveal itself.  As my logic suggests to me anyway.

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14 hours ago, JosephM said:

God is Life. Some might say unlimited energy. The one Life that animates all of form. The substrate of your very perceived existence. Why animate anything/everything? Because that is the nature of Life and creation. The animation is illusory as in not as it seems to the senses . Life doesn't shut down, it merely changes form to the unmanifest and gives that appearance to form over the concept of time . We refer to that animation as life (small l ) as that is temporal but Life (big L) is eternal and the Father of all that is both seen and unseen. Feel that energy, aliveness and Life that is doing the animation.

I don't see God simply as energy but ok for this discussion.

So animation is illusory (not as it seems ) but, as you said, there still is the animation of all. Man in death 'shuts down' as that particular form that is animated? If man does shut down then is it the case that the particular man is not part of the all? All that is part of the all is the unmanifest?

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21 hours ago, JosephM said:

Humans seem to me to be the only ones obsessed with finding meaning. Nature just does its thing. Perhaps we can learn from it. The tree, the plant , the insect, the reptile goes about its business living, changing form (dying), and evolving through procreation. We do the same and It seems to me requiring meaning need not be a requirement to live. Just be. 

Heaven and hell seem to be products of the mind. To the living, they may be everyday realities experienced by the thinking mind. To each his own but baby steps as we evolve past the mind created illusions of life. There seems to me to be much truth in the saying .... we (our minds) make our own heaven or hell here on earth. Pleasure and pain may be present in all living but life to me, requires no particular meaning that is not in Life itself. Afterlife? That would, in the mind's terms, presume there was a Beforelife. One , both,  none ... take your pick. Seems to me it isn't really that important. It is what it is. Live life.

Is it obsession? It seems that man, by his very nature, is a transcendent being always looking beyond himself to the more - and thus the search for meaning. 

But what human being would want to be the tree, plant insect or reptile? Again, it seems 'built in' that we look for meaning given our particular evolution. Seems that requiring meaning is a requirement of human life. 

Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning.

Anyway thanks, it's always fun.

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10 hours ago, PaulS said:

For me personally, I think the absurdity is in saying that unless one lives forever, then their life has no meaning.  Like I said, try saying that to your family and I imagine your instant reaction is that you wouldn't feel your life has no meaning.  Subsequently I can't consider it absurd, but understand that you do.  Each to their own.

 

Again, your short existence, any existence, as understood in this position, has no meaning, no impact and matters not to the atoms you mentioned. To think otherwise, to assign your collection of atoms meaningfulness is the greatest illusion.

I would never need to say that to my family since it is not my belief.

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

I guess similarly, it doesn't matter whether you want to live forever or not.  The cosmos will do what the cosmos does and if that means termination of consciousness, then that's what it means, irrespective if you should consider your life therefore meaningless..  So again to me, the only absurdity seems to be the thinking that it's absurd that our life has no meaning unless we live forever.  I accept that's not how you feel about it though.

I agree although I don't give such power to the cosmos but I take your meaning. If your stance is correct or the atheist stance is correct, then irrespective of whether or not we think our lives have meaning - they do not. It was all absurd from beginning to end and all one can do, all that the truly courageous man can do (if they somehow knew that for a fact) would be to defy life and fight against the absurdity, pushing the rock endlessly up the mountain. In the end, the rock will be were it started and all man's efforts for naught but at least man can spit in the face of absurdity (also an absurd action) and say 'it should have been otherwise, it should meant something.' But it didn't! 

You are right, If i accepted you position, I would acknowledge the consequence of the position: life has no meaning. Happily, I have never accepted such a stance nor do I hold such a belief. However, if one gives intellectual assent to your position but also believes that their life is meaningful and acts to create that meaning - I suspect there is a divide between what they profess and what they live! 

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

You seem to love this word absurdity.  The definition of absurdity is "the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable".  I don't think what I have discussed is at all 'wildly unreasonable or even ridiculous', just because others think their lives have no meaning if they can't live forever, particularly in the face of those people not knowing what any life after death even looks like, but at best, imagining what it could be because as you say, your logic leads you there.  

I think we live, we die.  My life has meaning whilst I am alive.  That my life ends at some point and things moves on doesn't render my life meaningless.  It has meaning to me and others.  When those memories move on and perhaps nobody exists anymore, those things still have meaning, it's just that I or anybody else is not around to consider such meaning anymore.  To me, that doesn't distract from the meaning that was.  I think it is the ego that doesn't want to 'let go' and accept that it won't exist anymore.  You think that's absurd - I don't.  Peace.

it is a fun word but I am also borrowing from philosophy and considerations of the meaningfulness or meaninglessness of life.

What is ridiculous and wildly unreasonable is the position that your's or anyone's particular arrangement of atoms (who you were or what you did, felt or thought) has any meaning in, any impact on, the vastness of cosmic space and time;  the atoms continue irregardless of all your thoughts, loves, efforts, etc. That such a life has meaning is fantasy.

When all are dead or simply when all that knew you are dead and no one has you in their memory or knew you ever existed - to whom do the things you did have meaning? What is their meaning in the vastness of endless time of the atoms? How much time has man been present in the vastness of cosmic 'time' and how long will he remain?  What meaningfulness does a life of 30, 50, 70, 80 years have on the vastness of time (or eternity) that the 'atoms' have? What meaning does man have in the endless cycle of the atoms? What does it matter that he was? It doesn't - the atoms continue whether or not man was.

At best, in such a position, meaning is relative and minuscule - but even that meaning is meaningless to the cosmos and to the ceaseless march of the atoms. To think there is any meaning is.......absurd.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, thormas said:

I don't see God simply as energy but ok for this discussion.

So animation is illusory (not as it seems ) but, as you said, there still is the animation of all. Man in death 'shuts down' as that particular form that is animated? If man does shut down then is it the case that the particular man is not part of the all? All that is part of the all is the unmanifest?

Well on the energy bit, like i said "some might say" .

Form is animated. You (Thomas) are form. You in reality are pure awareness now disguised as a person. The person is created and shuts down... awareness continues.  Thomas dies and his life is hid in Christ which is in God, the Life, Truth, and the Light that lights (animates) every one that comes into the world. No exceptions as it couldn't be otherwise for God/That Light is in and through all but the person and form is a creation that lives, dies and evolves. You may think you are ... but you are not ... that person for everything created dies. The person Thomas was created and is illusory.

All that is part of the all is both manifest and unmanifest yet only the unmanifest is not created.

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16 hours ago, PaulS said:

It seems to me this train of thought has developed as we grew our brains and became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years.  It does seem like a man-made development rather than any reality that has been lying in the wings waiting until we get to a certain spiritual or mental capacity to reveal itself.  As my logic suggests to me anyway.

8 hours ago, thormas said:

Is it obsession? It seems that man, by his very nature, is a transcendent being always looking beyond himself to the more - and thus the search for meaning. 

But what human being would want to be the tree, plant insect or reptile? Again, it seems 'built in' that we look for meaning given our particular evolution. Seems that requiring meaning is a requirement of human life. 

Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning.

Anyway thanks, it's always fun.

As Paul said we evolved and "our brains  became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years"  The mind that was to be used as a tool came with a fundamental flaw or some might call dysfunction. A kind of form of collective mental illness. Hindu sages call it maya or the veil of delusion. Buddhism  says the mind in its normal state generates dukkha. (suffering) Christianity calls it "original sin" but sin has been misunderstood and misinterpreted by many fundamental teachings. Paul in the NT says "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Hinduism and Buddhism's answer is to be enlightened. Christianity's answer is to have the 'mind of Christ with Christ representing being meshed together with God as One. Even Jesus said he spoke not his own words or did his own work but rather the words and work of the Father who sent him.

The problem is as man started naming things and creating dichonomies such as 'good and evil' (eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) etc etc..  The thinking mind gradually  took on an identity of its own (an ego) and now sits in the temple of God (the/your body) as if it is separate and is god. The body is created and evolving and flowering and eventually there will be a radical transformation of human consciousness and  all will evolve past this dysfunction but each human in their own order and time. Most all major religions use different words but the story is the same.

Thomas, you ask "Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning." It doesn't beg it in me. It's the dysfunction of the mind that begs the question. Life is its own meaning. Find the One who animates and the question will disappear. How can the human creature itself understand the meaning of Life without knowing first "who am I"?

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16 hours ago, PaulS said:

Another thing that comes to mind about this, is I wonder if the meaninglessness of life as Thormas imagines it to be if there is no afterlife, applied to the likes of other hominins millions of years ago that preceded us.  It's hard to imagine those 'lesser' species in our evolution (for instance when they were swinging from trees) as thinking it would be absurd if they didn't live for ever after their short span on earth.  It seems to me this train of thought has developed as we grew our brains and became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years.  It does seem like a man-made development rather than any reality that has been lying in the wings waiting until we get to a certain spiritual or mental capacity to reveal itself.  As my logic suggests to me anyway.

I don't know enough about others human like creatures to know whether or not they are closer to animals of homo sapiens. Nor do I/we know when they might have started thinking and especially what they thought. Certainly it seems that at some point they came to believe is gods (everywhere) and some also seem to have elaborate burial rituals. Again not sure of when or who began such rituals and  how they would be classified. Conversely, one wonders if the words meaningfulness or absurdity (or their language equivalents) ever entered their minds.

No denying our thought developed but as to whether it is only man-made or part of the make up (of the transcendent being) is a question.

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3 hours ago, JosephM said:

Form is animated. You (Thomas) are form. You in reality are pure awareness now disguised as a person. The person is created and shuts down... awareness continues.  Thomas dies and his life is hid in Christ which is in God, the Life, Truth, and the Light that lights (animates) every one that comes into the world. No exceptions as it couldn't be otherwise for God/That Light is in and through all but the person and form is a creation that lives, dies and evolves. You may think you are ... but you are not ... that person for everything created dies. The person Thomas was created and is illusory.

All that is part of the all is both manifest and unmanifest yet only the unmanifest is not created.

Interesting but are we pure awareness if our awareness is so different one to another and even in the individual self?  And disguised - why disguised, what would be the need for or the purpose of a disguise? Perhaps there is another way to approach this but this doesn't resonate, seems to speak of a mind/body conflict and also seems a throwback to older philosophies and even gnosticism. 

I get that Thormas dies but if awareness continues is it still becoming aware or is it a one time limited thing (say 3 years for some and 85 years for others)? And why hide in Christ, what do you mean here: hid from what?

If person lives, dies and evolves - evolves to what and is this evolution at all the responsibility or work of the person (and again is it a limited 89 year deal or does it continue)?

What is awareness after death when it hides in Christ? Is it person or form of another kind?

Thanks.

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