Revised 8 points

[thormas]

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I do know one person who has said to me that she would give another her last pair of shoes, or coat, or something else of necessity, even if she didn't 'know' that she had a way of getting another one. She said that she just 'knows' that God would find a way of providing her with another one.

Myself, I don't have this kind of faith or sense of overall security. The faith of "the lilies of the fields" or "of a fisherman" is hard to come by, and even harder to maintain. I'm not too good at volunteering to "cease to exist" myself, and perhaps like yourself, don't feel like I should be expected or asked to do this sort of thing.

 

This caught my attention.

The woman's statement is not just about a degree of faith that she has and others don't, it goes to an understanding of God. If one doesn't accept or envision a God in 'heaven' who intercedes in the natural world of man via miracles, then such a scenario (of God providing more shoes to the woman) makes no sense and has no point of reference. 

Now this doesn't mean the woman is not entitled to her belief or that it doesn't work (by that I mean it is a guide for her life). Many generations have envisioned such a God and lived the lives of good people, inspired and encouraged by stories of that God that they accepted literally. So their simple faith worked. 

Most (all?) PCs would not accept such an understanding of God but hopefully they could see the good results in the lives of people, some long past, (It is obvious also, that some past generations just didn't get it, took it to an extreme and were not 'good people' given the harm they did in the world - inquisitions, burnings, conquest, etc.

Of course I suspect Spong would think (and say) this 'faith,' the faith of this woman about her shoes was wrong.

[Elen1107]

59 minutes ago, thormas said:

 

This caught my attention.

The woman's statement is not just about a degree of faith that she has and others don't, it goes to an understanding of God. If one doesn't accept or envision a God in 'heaven' who intercedes in the natural world of man via miracles, then such a scenario (of God providing more shoes to the woman) makes no sense and has no point of reference. 

Now this doesn't mean the woman is not entitled to her belief or that it doesn't work (by that I mean it is a guide for her life). Many generations have envisioned such a God and lived the lives of good people, inspired and encouraged by stories of that God that they accepted literally. So their simple faith worked. 

Most (all?) PCs would not accept such an understanding of God but hopefully they could see the good results in the lives of people, some long past, (It is obvious also, that some past generations just didn't get it, took it to an extreme and were not 'good people' given the harm they did in the world - inquisitions, burnings, conquest, etc.

Of course I suspect Spong would think (and say) this 'faith,' the faith of this woman about her shoes was wrong.

I myself don't know. She is French Catholic, with a heritage in the Catholic tradition that goes back something like 1,500 years. She used to be a very close neighbor of mine, we lived in the same building. She herself was living at or below the poverty line, and sharing a one bedroom apartment with her daughter, who was working fulltime, and her daughters two teenage sons, (who ate, and needed to eat, a lot). Still she kept giving and giving and giving. It was unreal how much she'd give when she, and her own, actually had so little.

Today, she is living in her own house on her own land, that she and her daughter managed to buy together. The "boys" each have their own bedrooms as do grandma and mom. Though the house is not large, it is not horribly small either, and she finally has some real security for her old age. They even have a very nice rear deck on the house and a nice bit of a yard.

Myself, I can't say her faith is or was "wrong". I can say that I myself can't have or maintain that kind or level of faith in myself, when everything visible and "practical" around me tells me different, and that it's even a stupid and foolish thing to do. No, I will not give away my last old age dollar because someone needs it now, when I am sure I am going to need it later. Am I right or is she? … I don't know.

Thing is she's got the rest of her life all sowed up for her with some real security and peace of mind, and that people would be hard put to take away from her. Myself, I'm still living in a one bedroom apartment, with less than half of the real life security that she has. We are about the same age. Can't help but wonder if she is doing something right and I am doing something wrong.

I think I will have to think that one through a few more times.

Thanks for reading

Edited March 6, 2020 by Elen1107

[thormas]

30 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

 

I get what you wrote.

My only point was that others, including you, should not feel their faith is less. It seems the woman's faith is tied to her understanding of God. 

I don't have this kind of faith because I don't believe this understanding of God. I did when I was being raised Catholic but found an understanding that spoke more clearly and made sense for me as a 20/21st C person. However, even in our Catholic faith of yesteryear, we always knew there was more involved than faith.  One thing I will never forget is the hidden message in much of our Catholic beliefs. When we lost something we always said a prayer to St. Anthony but then we proceeded to tear the house apart until we found it - and then promptly thanked Anthony. But we were the ones who did the work, we were the one who had to dive into the world and do something to even have the possibility of a good ending. This, eventually, gave me an insight into God; he was the Creator but we are the co-creators and it all falls on us; we are the ones who turn creation into the Kingdom (with God but that too is more nuanced that my childhood beliefs).

p.s. does the woman have the rest of her life taken care of? Do any of us, no matter our faith, whatever our faith? Stuff happens to us all: cancer or an accident or a fire could be right around the corner. I wouldn't give your money away either: just as it is acceptable to put your feet up and have that cup of tea, so too it is okay to look to yourself and your need (present and future). Love of self is not selfishness and is necessary if one is to reach out to others however it is possible for them, even if it is just as a friend, a hello to a neighbor or on a site like this sharing with others.

[Elen1107]

I once encountered someone who was into something called EST. Where I don't know anything about the rest of it, it actually seemed kind of "funny" to me,... they have one practice that I found interesting. This person told me that if one of their beliefs and practices was to give to others and to things like charities and those in need, even if they themselves didn't have too much. She said that somehow, by the powers that be, or by karma or something like that, that one ends up getting more back in time and in the long and even short run of things.

I myself tried it for a while, and it did actually seem to be the case, though not in any real big or dramatic way.

Am I wrong, or even doing myself a disservice by being more self protective and even "stingy" at this point in my life? Like I've said earlier, maybe it's something that I need to think over a few more times, and maybe can come to a better understanding on the subject.

I have found myself having an issue with giving more to other people who I know dang well have or are making more than myself. Am I wrong in this, and am I nit-picking or something? It's something I need to address within myself.

*    *  *   *

On a different subject: I'd like to apologize to people if I am not getting back to their comments and quotes that are addressed to me. Between my own schedule and need to get things done, and this forum's software, which only allows me so many comments when I do have the time,... I'm finding it rather if not very difficult to do. I'm even including this statement in with another comment, just so I don't use up my number of comments too quickly. Thanks everyone for your patience and understanding,... and Thanks for reading this.

*   *  *   * 

[thormas]

10 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Am I wrong, or even doing myself a disservice by being more self protective and even "stingy" at this point in my life? Like I've said earlier, maybe it's something that I need to think over a few more times, and maybe can come to a better understanding on the subject.

I have found myself having an issue with giving more to other people who I know dang well have or are making more than myself. Am I wrong in this, and am I nit-picking or something? It's something I need to address within myself.

Why would one give to another who has more? If anything, the idea is to give to those in need and if your need is greater ........??

You can give of yourself in many ways without giving money or things. And to protect yourself, to make sure you can provide for yourself now and in the future seems to be essential. Don't even think of characterizing it as stingy, that puts too great a pressure and an unnecessary guilt on you. 

[Elen1107]

20 minutes ago, thormas said:

I get what you wrote.

My only point was that others, including you, should not feel their faith is less. It seems the woman's faith is tied to her understanding of God. 

Well, maybe I do feel like I have less faith than she does, though I don't ness feel like my faith "is less" than hers,... though it might be.

20 minutes ago, thormas said:

I don't have this kind of faith because I don't believe this understanding of God. I did when I was being raised Catholic but found an understanding that spoke more clearly and made sense for me as a 20/21st C person. However, even in our Catholic faith of yesteryear, we always knew there was more involved than faith.  One thing I will never forget is the hidden message in much of our Catholic beliefs. When we lost something we always said a prayer to St. Anthony but then we proceeded to tear the house apart until we found it - and then promptly thanked Anthony. But we were the ones who did the work, we were the one who had to dive into the world and do something to even have the possibility of a good ending. This, eventually, gave me an insight into God; he was the Creator but we are the co-creators and it all falls on us; we are the ones who turn creation into the Kingdom (with God but that too is more nuanced that my childhood beliefs).

I too had a similar experience when we went to my Aunt's house each year for Thanksgiving dinner. They were in the habit/tradition of saying 'thanks' for each meal before they/we ate. My father/parents were much more of the feeling that "we did this", we/my parents worked 40 hours and more  to get this/these meals and this "bounty" and we deserve like at least half the thanks and credit.

I don't know if I myself really believe that we humans actually "create" or "co-create" anything. I guess it depends on how the word is used. One could say that they "created" a work of art, and this is very common word usage in our or at least my society. People do say they "created" a baby,... but do they/we really? We certainly didn't create the creation process, but still that phrase is not totally uncommon.

I've at times felt like I couldn't so much as "create" a blade of grass. 

At the same time I could say that I'm creating a sentence right here and now as I write.

It's an interesting subject,... and I'm thinking that it depends on how the word is used and in which/what contexts. Maybe it's something we can get more into as time goes on, or even on another thread.

20 minutes ago, thormas said:

p.s. does the woman have the rest of her life taken care of? Do any of us, no matter our faith, whatever our faith? Stuff happens to us all: cancer or an accident or a fire could be right around the corner. I wouldn't give your money away either: just as it is acceptable to put your feet up and have that cup of tea, so too it is okay to look to yourself and your need (present and future). Love of self is not selfishness and is necessary if one is to reach out to others however it is possible for them, even if it is just as a friend, a hello to a neighbor or on a site like this sharing with others.

Thanks for this comment and I do see what you are saying here. I myself do tend to feel that our "karma" or the quality of our inner energy can effect our health and things like if we get cancer and/or how well we cope with it if we do. Does it effect our safety with regards to things like fires and accidents? I myself kind of think so, but how much or in which cases I'm not sure. I'm certainly not going to be careless with fire or a careless driver or encourage others to do so, for any reason whatsoever. 

One thing I will say about this woman is that she would say things like, "the letting out of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin", and she and her family seemed really tough and even extreme in their practice of corporal punishment, especially on the smallest of her grandchildren, who though not living with her, she did take care of often. I myself might well disagree with corporal punishment entirely, and think there are far better ways of teaching and even disciplining children, though they do take more time, more thought and quite probably more energy and internal patience and balance. 

I myself have never understood the "letting out of blood" thing for the "forgiveness of sin", and quite possibly never will.

I consider myself "saved", (if one chooses to use that word) by Jesus's life and spirit and teachings and light, not by his death on the cross, (that's if that did actually happen. I myself don't know what I really think or feel on this particular subject, and probably am some long ways off from figuring out what I do or will ultimately think, that's if I am ever able to figure it out or "know for sure". I do however believe he is eternal and does and is living forever, and that he is far more than just a prophet. How and when this actually happened is another subject that we, or I, may never know or be totally privy to the answer to ). 

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I don't know if I myself really believe that we humans actually "create" or "co-create" anything. I guess it depends on how the word is used. One could say that they "created" a work of art, and this is very common word usage in our or at least my society. People do say they "created" a baby,... but do they/we really? We certainly didn't create the creation process, but still that phrase is not totally uncommon.

By this I simply mean that in a sense 'God needs us.' If God is Love then we are the lovers, we are the ones who 'carry' the love and give it one to another (or sadly withhold it). I believe that love literally gives, creates and enhances life. So as 'co-creators' we are the likeness of God when we love: we do what God is and 'in a sense' we are what God is (at least in a finite way, at least in the moment). 

Speaking of creating art, I read ages upon ages ago that there is a difference between making and creating with the latter being what the artist does: the artist puts something of herself into her creation, it is from her, it is of her, she is in the creation but it (the creation) also has or takes on a life of its own. So too with a child: there is a vast difference between making and creating a baby and the latter is not one simple act that results in that life but the whole of the parent's life by which she is continually creating (enhancing, supporting) the child (as the child does also and also, in turn, creates life for the parent and others). 

There is a line from a religious group that goes something like: God is the Dance and we are the Dancers. There must be the two and then the goal, the point of it all is simply the Dancing.

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I've at times felt like I couldn't so much as "create" a blade of grass. 

We might not be able to create a blade of grass but think of what the artist, the musician, can do, what she can create with that simple blade. I went to college and on the campus was a monastery where a religious order lived (and some were also our teachers). There was an old monk, an ancient monk, and we would see him when the weather turned nice and he would take walks. One day he came upon a bunch of us, all guys, laying out on the grass in between classes (guy who thought we 'owned' the campus and who were in the process of questioning everything). He stopped, bent and plucked a blade of grass and asked if we wanted to hear something. He then put the blade to his mouth and some of the most beautiful 'music' was heard and we were like little kids in awe before him. It was not just the musical instrument he played, it was the gift of himself. This was the (further) creating and enhancing of life.  

What rings in my ears even today is: "Behold, it is upon you."

Edited March 6, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Thanks for this comment and I do see what you are saying here. I myself do tend to feel that our "karma" or the quality of our inner energy can effect our health and things like if we get cancer and/or how well we cope with it if we do. Does it effect our safety with regards to things like fires and accidents? I myself kind of think so, but how much or in which cases I'm not sure. I'm certainly not going to be careless with fire or a careless driver or encourage others to do so, for any reason whatsoever. 

One thing I will say about this woman is that she would say things like, "the letting out of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin", and she and her family seemed really tough and even extreme in their practice of corporal punishment, especially on the smallest of her grandchildren, who though not living with her, she did take care of often. I myself might well disagree with corporal punishment entirely, and think there are far better ways of teaching and even disciplining children, though they do take more time, more thought and quite probably more energy and internal patience and balance. 

I myself have never understood the "letting out of blood" thing for the "forgiveness of sin", and quite possibly never will.

I consider myself "saved", (if one chooses to use that word) by Jesus's life and spirit and teachings and light, not by his death on the cross, (that's if that did actually happen. I myself don't know what I really think or feel on this particular subject, and probably am some long ways off from figuring out what I do or will ultimately think, that's if I am ever able to figure it out or "know for sure". I do however believe he is eternal and does and is living forever, and that he is far more than just a prophet. How and when this actually happened is another subject that we, or I, may never know or be totally privy to the answer to ). 

I don't think in terms of karma but I do think one's attitude and outlook or take on life does play a large part in how we cope with life. Still, none can predict the future and I don't think such attitudes or outlooks (or karma) can effect things like cancer, fire or accidents. Sure in terms of coping but not in preventing. This for me gets into 'magic thinking' and in Christianity it translates too easily that some are special before God and somehow favored or, as we say, blessed. The rain falls on all, there are no favorites, all are his children and God's job is not to provide in that way for us. As you indicated (I'm certainly not going to be careless...) that is on us. We are the caretakers, we are the responsible ones and we are the ones who also recognize that stuff happens (if a huge tree falls in the forest and no one is there but you and it falls squarely on you - it in all probability will not end well for you). But until the inevitable occurs (i.e. death) we can be as Christ in the world.

 

I always thought that Jesus' death was a piece with his life: he had already continually died to selfishness (i.e. sin) throughout the moments of his life and the cross is his last act. 

[Burl]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Well, maybe I do feel like I have less faith than she does, though I don't ness feel like my faith "is less" than hers,... though it might be.

I too had a similar experience when we went to my Aunt's house each year for Thanksgiving dinner. They were in the habit/tradition of saying 'thanks' for each meal before they/we ate. My father/parents were much more of the feeling that "we did this", we/my parents worked 40 hours and more  to get this/these meals and this "bounty" and we deserve like at least half the thanks and credit.

I don't know if I myself really believe that we humans actually "create" or "co-create" anything. I guess it depends on how the word is used. One could say that they "created" a work of art, and this is very common word usage in our or at least my society. People do say they "created" a baby,... but do they/we really? We certainly didn't create the creation process, but still that phrase is not totally uncommon.

I've at times felt like I couldn't so much as "create" a blade of grass. 

At the same time I could say that I'm creating a sentence right here and now as I write.

It's an interesting subject,... and I'm thinking that it depends on how the word is used and in which/what contexts. Maybe it's something we can get more into as time goes on, or even on another thread.

Thanks for this comment and I do see what you are saying here. I myself do tend to feel that our "karma" or the quality of our inner energy can effect our health and things like if we get cancer and/or how well we cope with it if we do. Does it effect our safety with regards to things like fires and accidents? I myself kind of think so, but how much or in which cases I'm not sure. I'm certainly not going to be careless with fire or a careless driver or encourage others to do so, for any reason whatsoever. 

One thing I will say about this woman is that she would say things like, "the letting out of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin", and she and her family seemed really tough and even extreme in their practice of corporal punishment, especially on the smallest of her grandchildren, who though not living with her, she did take care of often. I myself might well disagree with corporal punishment entirely, and think there are far better ways of teaching and even disciplining children, though they do take more time, more thought and quite probably more energy and internal patience and balance. 

I myself have never understood the "letting out of blood" thing for the "forgiveness of sin", and quite possibly never will.

I consider myself "saved", (if one chooses to use that word) by Jesus's life and spirit and teachings and light, not by his death on the cross, (that's if that did actually happen. I myself don't know what I really think or feel on this particular subject, and probably am some long ways off from figuring out what I do or will ultimately think, that's if I am ever able to figure it out or "know for sure". I do however believe he is eternal and does and is living forever, and that he is far more than just a prophet. How and when this actually happened is another subject that we, or I, may never know or be totally privy to the answer to ). 

The idea of blood atonement is a misunderstanding of the metaphor of Christ’s blood as grace and life.  

I don’t know if I can explain atonement and forgiveness in a forum format but I could try.  Definitely a different topic.

[Elen1107]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:44 AM, JosephM said:

This is exactly what inclusiveness means. Communicating ones belief is part of inclusiveness but when it comes to the point of i am right and you are wrong a line is drawn. It has become personal. Getting personal will get one excluded. At that point  sometimes some thoughts are better left unsaid.

 

Well, that seems to be the risk we take with the first amendment and to live in peace with others. To me, in my view, the alternative is not acceptable.  Beliefs are allowed to be communicated and one can state their opposing belief in response but if it reaches the point of calling names, insulting or getting personal to me it crosses the line of inclusion here and in progressive Christianity in general. I will listen to a person who believes in slavery and his /her reason/s why,  perhaps ask questions to better understand their thinking,  perhaps point out a few things they might consider which may alter their thinking, and then drop it. Why argue and escalate into something personal?(rhetorical)  It will not serve anything except to further alienate us and end an opportunity of reconciliation to a peaceful existence. In my view, the moment we become argumentative we may find our self crossing into irrational and unproductive territory.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here.

It's when we get into including ideas that are un-inclusive in order to be inclusive that one gets into a kind of mind bender or mental knot.

I myself don't know quite how to deal with it at this point. Maybe I, or we, will figure things out better as we go along and study or investigate the situations and questions.

Thanks

[Elen1107]

On 3/6/2020 at 2:50 PM, Burl said:

The idea of blood atonement is a misunderstanding of the metaphor of Christ’s blood as grace and life.  

I don’t know if I can explain atonement and forgiveness in a forum format but I could try.  Definitely a different topic.

I myself kind of don't do the "blood atonement" part. I feel pretty good about my faith and inspiration in Christ all the same. Maybe at sometime in the future I'll change my thinking on this, who knows.

There are a few parts of 'traditional Christianity' that I just don't think about or focus on at all. This is one of them, hell and original sin are two others. Sorry, but I just feel better and think a lot better if I just don't go there.