Homosexuality is not a sin!

[JosephM]

3 hours ago, thormas said:

Joseph, 

I have no problem moving on to the next topic, whatever that might be. 

However I disagree that it (morality or ethical behavior) is an uncomplicated issue nor do I think that right and wrong are (always) arbitrary.

I do agree however that, arbitrary or not, no one's mind is likely to change on this particular topic.

I have no problem with you believing the behavior discussed is wrong. I also have no problem with Paul believing the behavior discussed is right or good. That is why we state our view / opinion and if another is adamant about their view just agree that we see things differently. 

I also have no problem with you thinking right and wrong are not always arbitrary even though i see them as always subjective arbitrary points on a continuum.

Just my personal thoughts and experience,

Joseph

[thormas]

2 hours ago, JosephM said:

I have no problem with you believing the behavior discussed is wrong. I also have no problem with Paul believing the behavior discussed is right or good. That is why we state our view / opinion and if another is adamant about their view just agree that we see things differently. 

I also have no problem with you thinking right and wrong are not always arbitrary even though i see them as always subjective arbitrary points on a continuum.

And Joseph, I have no problem with your views, subjective truth and all  ;+}

Edited December 16, 2019 by thormas

[thormas]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:52 AM, PaulS said:

have you read Bart recently who thinks that Jesus was even against marital sex outside of the need for pro-creation?  That won't sit well with any Christians that uses contraception!

Actually, I just found it and it appears Bart is not saying that. He is giving possible interpretations, especially by 'later Christians' and laughingly chastising some Christians who 'interpret' it to mean same-sex relations when it could be interpreted as lots of different sex acts with your legitimate spouse - but they won't say that because they have a vested interest in those sex acts. So I think all Christians are safe unless they have sex with a fallen angel - which my be worth it :+}

In addition, isn't it the Catholic Christians who have to deal with restrictions on contraceptions (?) and they dealt with that decades ago - thus the term cafeteria Catholics.

Edited December 17, 2019 by thormas

[thormas]

17 hours ago, JosephM said:

............ right and wrong............. i see them as always subjective arbitrary points on a continuum.

Joseph, I was intrigued by your reference to a continuum so, to be careful and accurate, I looked it up and the term refers to "a continuous series of elements or items that vary by such tiny differences that they do not seem to differ from each other."  So that speaks to your understanding but then they gave an example: a range of temperatures from freezing to boiling. And although, as we know from experience, temperatures at one end of the scale or the other are difficult to distinguish, such as 94 or 96 degrees, it is much easier to distinguish at the extremes, for example between the 90s and 20 degrees temperature - actually some people can distinguish even a slight drop in temperature. In addition another world given for continuum was progression.

So there are 'points' on a continuum but those points can vary significantly and can also make a large difference, even a difference in one's survival. And, some people 'choose' to move to a different point on a continuum as is evidenced by those from the North, like me, who decades ago, chose the very different temperatures of the South. 

 

[JosephM]

10 hours ago, thormas said:

Joseph, I was intrigued by your reference to a continuum so, to be careful and accurate, I looked it up and the term refers to "a continuous series of elements or items that vary by such tiny differences that they do not seem to differ from each other."  So that speaks to your understanding but then they gave an example: a range of temperatures from freezing to boiling. And although, as we know from experience, temperatures at one end of the scale or the other are difficult to distinguish, such as 94 or 96 degrees, it is much easier to distinguish at the extremes, for example between the 90s and 20 degrees temperature - actually some people can distinguish even a slight drop in temperature. In addition another world given for continuum was progression.

So there are 'points' on a continuum but those points can vary significantly and can also make a large difference, even a difference in one's survival. And, some people 'choose' to move to a different point on a continuum as is evidenced by those from the North, like me, who decades ago, chose the very different temperatures of the South. 

 

Yes, your first definition is similar to my understanding which is "a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct" .  I have found that overcoming " the polarity of opposites " goes a long to advancing ones spiritual quest to love, to forgive, to appreciate and see the beauty in all things that exist which is to live in peace and harmony rather than strife and discord.

[thormas]

12 hours ago, JosephM said:

Yes, your first definition is similar to my understanding which is "a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct" .  I have found that overcoming " the polarity of opposites " goes a long to advancing ones spiritual quest to love, to forgive, to appreciate and see the beauty in all things that exist which is to live in peace and harmony rather than strife and discord.

That's helpful that the definitions are in sync.

So given a continuous sequence, those standing at a point (just to give a visual) relatively close together are in close agreement while those further away from that point - one way or the other are more distinct and those considerably far away are at an even greater different.

It seems that while 'truth' is relative to where one stands on the continuum, the 'continuum' itself is not relative (although all might not recognize it). In addition if a polarity of opposites might include, as an example, Hitler's take on power and the purity of race and a Dali Lama/Jesus/Buddha like figure's take on power and race, we have polar opposites and it would seem that one has 'progressed' farther along the continuum than the other. 

My question is what do you mean by overcoming the polarity of opposites as it seems that the Jesus/Buddha figure has already done that given their radically different position on the continuum. 

Just a musing on a beautiful December day.

 

[JosephM]

2 hours ago, thormas said:

That's helpful that the definitions are in sync.

So given a continuous sequence, those standing at a point (just to give a visual) relatively close together are in close agreement while those further away from that point - one way or the other are more distinct and those considerably far away are at an even greater different.

It seems that while 'truth' is relative to where one stands on the continuum, the 'continuum' itself is not relative (although all might not recognize it). In addition if a polarity of opposites might include, as an example, Hitler's take on power and the purity of race and a Dali Lama/Jesus/Buddha like figure's take on power and race, we have polar opposites and it would seem that one has 'progressed' farther along the continuum than the other. 

My question is what do you mean by overcoming the polarity of opposites as it seems that the Jesus/Buddha figure has already done that given their radically different position on the continuum. 

Just a musing on a beautiful December day.

 

The point is ...... In reality, there are no opposites. Opposites are concepts created by people. Points on the continuum are arbitrarily labeled by people when in reality they are just degrees of one thing. IE: In reality temperature is the continuum and hot and cold are merely arbitrary points people make up for convenience. Temperature can be accurately expressed in degrees but the terms we use are arbitrary (hot and cold). Only heat exits and the degree to which it exists can be expressed. Same with good and bad, love and hate, saint and sinner, God and the Devil. etc. They are in reality a single continuum. There is only love, only God and the degree to which it is evolved and present in consciousness at the time is content. In context God is in all things. When you understand this forgiveness and love become unconditional because you can then see that people are where they are at a level of evolved consciousness and you would be no different if you were the other. While one level of consciousness may be more beneficial for sustaining life, it is in reality, not better or worse than another. It is what it is and part of the wondrous dance of life.

Edited December 18, 2019 by JosephM
changed

[thormas]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

The point is ...... In reality, there are no opposites. Opposites are concepts created by people. Points on the continuum are arbitrarily labeled by people when in reality they are just degrees of one thing. IE: In reality temperature is the continuum and hot and cold are merely arbitrary points people make up for convenience. Temperature can be accurately expressed in degrees but the terms we use are arbitrary (hot and cold). Only heat exits and the degree to which it exists can be expressed. Same with good and bad, love and hate, saint and sinner, God and the Devil. etc. They are in reality a single continuum. There is only love, only God and the degree to which it is evolved and present in consciousness at the time is content. In context God is in all things. When you understand this forgiveness and love become unconditional because you can then see that people are where they are at a level of evolved consciousness and you would be no different if you were the other. While one level of consciousness may be more beneficial for sustaining life, it is in reality, not better or worse than another. It is what it is and part of the wondrous dance of life.

All I'm saying, reacting to your definition, is that  when there is movement from adjacent elements to the extremes, these are quite distinct - and in the Hitler case, either opposites or nearing opposition.

I have no problem believing that there is no opposition in primordial being (also called the Father by some), it's just that when that being expresses itself in the creation of 'other' then, as finite beings, there are opposites and those at one extreme (the Jesus/Buddha figure) are much more expressive of being 'as it is.' I also have no problem believing that 'at some time' all will be 'gathered back' into primordial being in which there are no opposites or in which, as one philosopher said, there is a dialect in the opposition.

 

Going back to degrees, there is a distinct difference between -1 degree and 98 degrees. I agree that they are degrees of the one thing but that difference is monumental and can actually result in death for a finite being. I also get that calling it -1 or 98 is arbitrary and of course we could have called -1 hot or some other word, but whatever the term, the naming reflects reality as experienced in time and space.

 

So using the words we have, heat (and cold?) exist and we can express the degree to which it is hot or cold. So too good/bad, love/hate, etc.

So there is only God - but couldn't it be just as easily said that there is only the Devil (single continuum name for the opposite of God)? Regardless, there is God/Good but the degree to which it evolved and is present differs in society and in individuals (Hitler vis. Buddha/Jesus). Additionally, is God content with the degree to which 'it' evolved? In the time of Jesus (as one example), God wasn't content, thus Jesus and Jesus did all that was possible to change that consciousness. 

Again with Jesus: he confronted the Pharisees and those he thought were wrong in their application of the law and the burden placed on the people: he 'understood' and he forgave/loved but he also confronted another with a different degree of consciousness or love when he saw people being harmed. He tried to affect or 'evolve' the consciousness. 

I understand about seeing people where they are and in a similar situation, you would be the other. Yet, again, we still have teachers and others who attempt to change another's level of consciousness and we have these same people or others who will stop the other in order to protect an innocent. 

So it seems on the one continuum, there are some whose level of evolved consciousness is heightened, 'closer' to God (again he Jesus/Buddha figure). And it does seem that certain levels of consciousness are better at sustaining life and therefore are better. (in reality Hitler was worse). 

 

More musings. Thanks. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by thormas

[romansh]

6 minutes ago, thormas said:

sustaining life and therefore are better.

The problem with your logic lies here.

Hitler is no different to say AIDS, the Influenza outbreak of 1918, some dirty big meteorite wiping out much of the life on Earth. Each have shaped who we are today. 

Some things we think could not have done otherwise. Other things we think, erroneously, could have done otherwise.

[thormas]

2 hours ago, romansh said:

Hitler is no different to say AIDS, the Influenza outbreak of 1918, some dirty big meteorite wiping out much of the life on Earth. Each have shaped who we are today. 

Some things we think could not have done otherwise. Other things we think, erroneously, could have done otherwise.

I'll leave you to your life and I'll continue to do otherwise :+}

 

 

 

 

[JosephM]

5 hours ago, thormas said:

 

Going back to degrees, there is a distinct difference between -1 degree and 98 degrees. I agree that they are degrees of the one thing but that difference is monumental and can actually result in death for a finite being. I also get that calling it -1 or 98 is arbitrary and of course we could have called -1 hot or some other word, but whatever the term, the naming reflects reality as experienced in time and space.

 

I think you missed the point. -1 and 98 degrees are not arbitrary per se nor did i call them arbitrary. They are our scientific measures of heat. Hot and cold which people use as opposites are the arbitrary points. And likewise the other things i spoke of.  In naming the continuum such as heat it is important to note there is only heat and not cold.Heat is present  to some degree , cold is not. Therefor it makes a difference which one is the continuum

[thormas]

49 minutes ago, JosephM said:

I think you missed the point. -1 and 98 degrees are not arbitrary per se nor did i call them arbitrary. They are our scientific measures of heat. Hot and cold which people use as opposites are the arbitrary points. And likewise the other things i spoke of.  In naming the continuum such as heat it is important to note there is only heat and not cold.Heat is present  to some degree , cold is not. Therefor it makes a difference which one is the continuum

Sorry, you lost me.  Are the words hot and cold arbitrary or is calling them opposites arbitrary?  And are you saying there is only one and the other, the 'opposite' does not have a reality of it's own but is just progressively lesser degrees of that which is real, for example heat?

 Why is there only heat? Couldn't it just as easily be said there is only cold? So too, why do you say there is only God, couldn't it be said there is only the Devil? Isn't saying that God is in everything simply a belief statement? 

Interesting stuff.

[JosephM]

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Sorry, you lost me.  Are the words hot and cold arbitrary or is calling them opposites arbitrary?  And are you saying there is only one and the other, the 'opposite' does not have a reality of it's own but is just progressively lesser degrees of that which is real, for example heat?

 Why is there only heat? Couldn't it just as easily be said there is only cold? So too, why do you say there is only God, couldn't it be said there is only the Devil? Isn't saying that God is in everything simply a belief statement? 

Interesting stuff.

Yes, the words as we use them (hot and cold ) are arbitrary points on the continuum of heat. Heat or energy if you choose to call it that exists. Cold does not exist except as an arbitrary point subjective in its use. 

We can't say in reality that cold exists except in our own mind as a concept because it is always a measure of heat that can accurately be expressed in degrees of heat. Cold is not a thing or something but rather a point of low energy/heat that one might say is cold. That point is arbitrary as my wife and i can attest to. 😊 

[PaulS]

On 12/16/2019 at 10:01 PM, JosephM said:

Paul and Thomas,

All these words for such an uncomplicated issue! I think we need to move past the arbitrary points of right and wrong that people choose on the continuum of life. They simply are not polar opposites but rather a degree or arbitrary point along a line that represents degrees of promoting life on this planet. It is much like temperature that is a line (continuum) with no moving molecules of energy on one end and the maximum amount of molecules active on the other. It can be measured in degrees but arbitrary points of hot or cold are a matter of subjective experience and arbitrary points chosen by people rather than polar opposites. My wife and i still can't agree on whether its hot or cold in the house after 51+ years of marriage! 😊😊 But we still love each other.😍 

PS Once an arbitrary point is truly chosen it is near impossible to change the others mind by reason.

Agreed in full, Joseph.  

[PaulS]

Thormas,

Joseph's post has made me realise that this conversation is really about nothing.  You have your views on the matter, I have mine.  I think this discussion about 'using' another for sex has reached its climax.

Do you have any final questions for me that you feel it is necessary for me to answer before I conclude my part in this thread concerning 'using another for sex'?

Cheers

Paul

[PaulS]

14 hours ago, JosephM said:

The point is ...... In reality, there are no opposites. Opposites are concepts created by people. Points on the continuum are arbitrarily labeled by people when in reality they are just degrees of one thing. IE: In reality temperature is the continuum and hot and cold are merely arbitrary points people make up for convenience. Temperature can be accurately expressed in degrees but the terms we use are arbitrary (hot and cold). Only heat exits and the degree to which it exists can be expressed. Same with good and bad, love and hate, saint and sinner, God and the Devil. etc. They are in reality a single continuum. There is only love, only God and the degree to which it is evolved and present in consciousness at the time is content. In context God is in all things. When you understand this forgiveness and love become unconditional because you can then see that people are where they are at a level of evolved consciousness and you would be no different if you were the other. While one level of consciousness may be more beneficial for sustaining life, it is in reality, not better or worse than another. It is what it is and part of the wondrous dance of life.

I like that analogy, Joseph!  There is only heat - an opposite does not exist, indeed only a different degree of heat exists.

There is no right or wrong...to heat...it just sits on its continuum wherever it finds itself at that time.  Simple existence, irrespective of wherever another finds itself at a simultaneous time.  Similarly, that's about the only way I can understand God to be, if there is such a 'thing' as God - like heat, without an opposite, in all things, and for me, all things would be in and of God, sitting on that continuum wherever they may find themselves at that time.

[thormas]

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

Yes, the words as we use them (hot and cold ) are arbitrary points on the continuum of heat. Heat or energy if you choose to call it that exists. Cold does not exist except as an arbitrary point subjective in its use. 

We can't say in reality that cold exists except in our own mind as a concept because it is always a measure of heat that can accurately be expressed in degrees of heat. Cold is not a thing or something but rather a point of low energy/heat that one might say is cold. That point is arbitrary as my wife and i can attest to. 😊 

I get that we can say that heat exists and cold is merely the progressive absence of heat on a continuum. I also get that we can say that cold is an arbitrary point (some feel cold at temperatures when another feels hot). However, it does seem, in reality, that cold exists and it does seem to be the opposite of heat. 

Here's the tricky point (for me): to say that cold only exists in our mind seems to ignore that fact that in reality, cold kills (unless we're saying that a lack of heat kills which, in turn, seems like word play. However, if we stick with the heat continuum, then it must be said that (approaching) the further ends of the continuum and especially at the ends, where hot is hotter than hell and colder is colder that deep space (?) there is opposition and it is real - and that neither end or extreme is good for life. 

However, the more intriguing issue for me is God: it does seem to be an act of faith to say that there is only God and the Devil is the other end of the continuum or that there is only love and the absence of love, i.e. hate is the other end of the continuum. I actually believe both of these statements but that is just it: I believe. I imagine one could name the continuum hate or the Devil and say that God and love only exist in our mind. 

Thanks Joseph, this is interesting.

However when time permits I made some observations about Jesus earlier and I would be interested in your response.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by thormas

[JosephM]

There is something much deeper to be gleamed from the understanding and it has to do with the underlying principle.and the way the mind works. If you still see things as right and wrong you have missed it and i cannot help. 

[thormas]

On 12/16/2019 at 9:01 AM, JosephM said:

All these words for such an uncomplicated issue! I think we need to move past the arbitrary points of right and wrong that people choose on the continuum of life. They simply are not polar opposites but rather a degree or arbitrary point along a line that represents degrees of promoting life on this planet...... It can be measured in degrees but arbitrary points of hot or cold are a matter of subjective experience and arbitrary points chosen by people rather than polar opposites. 

PS Once an arbitrary point is truly chosen it is near impossible to change the others mind by reason.

I get that right and wrong can be understood as degrees or point along a continuum but as with heat, depending where they are on the continuum, they can also be 'opposites.' To love another to the point that one would lay down their life for them is so far at one end that it appears and is in direct 'opposition' to the brutal serial murder of another human being. Is murder the absence of love? Sure. But it is also so much more and it seems to have a life of its own. The absence or opposite of love, although we can say it is a degree or a point along the continuum, it also must be said that it is wrong and the other (love) right. Again, I give you Jesus 'confronting' wrong (the Pharisees) or the possibility of wrong (judging the adulterous woman) and guiding all to choose that point on the continuum (the 2 great commandments) and to not choose the opposite (sin). 

 

It seems that some who heard Jesus and others who continue to 'hear' him do choose to change their minds and have been successful, as was he, in changing the minds of others. That is what teaching is. Of course you did only say 'near impossible' to change ;+}

Note: sometimes the (right/wrong) points are at the extremes or approaching them or at great distances and are vastly different. Plus if we are talking about promoting life on the planet, it is apparent that those points further along on the continuum of love actually do promote life - while the other points, going the other way (so to speak) do not.

 

 

[romansh]

7 hours ago, thormas said:

I get that right and wrong can be understood as degrees or point along a continuum but as with heat, depending where they are on the continuum, they can also be 'opposites.'

What I think Joseph is trying to say is that good and evil don't actually exist, beyond that of a concept. It is the conceptual good and evil we think of as being on a continuum or as opposites.

[thormas]

17 minutes ago, romansh said:

What I think Joseph is trying to say is that good and evil don't actually exist, beyond that of a concept. It is the conceptual good and evil we think of as being on a continuum or as opposites.

He said: "heat exits ..........same with good (and bad)..." 

But he also said, "If you still see things as right and wrong you have missed it and i cannot help."

So, it seems he said both??

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by thormas

[romansh]

20 minutes ago, thormas said:

He said: "heat exits ..........same with good (and bad)..." 

Yes he did say that … but what exactly is heat?

Edited December 19, 2019 by romansh

[thormas]

2 hours ago, romansh said:

Yes he did say that … but what exactly is heat?

Am I the one who said it?

 

[romansh]

No … do you want to play or should I go home?

[thormas]

2 hours ago, romansh said:

No … do you want to play or should I go home?

Say what? I was not the one who said it so Joseph would be the logical one to answer your question if you want to know.