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Isaiah90

Homosexuality is not a sin!

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I know this claim will start alot of controversy so its up for discussion. After studying the Bible, i realized the Bible does not condemn all forms of homosexuality. The Bible condemns homosexuality that’s based on exploitation, lust, and idolatry. Here’s the proof.

Leviticus 18:22 does not condemn all homosexuality - Many English translations make it seem like Leviticus 18:22 condemns homosexuality. However, this is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew text. In Hebrew, it says "we et zakar lo tishkav mishkeveh Ishah Towebah hi." In English, it literally reads "and with a male, you shall not lie with in the beds of a woman. It is an abomination." What do beds of women have to do with homosexuality? People in ancient times engaged in what’s called “shrine prostitution.” Men and women had different beds. Men would have homosexual sex on the beds of women in worship of their gods. Towebah is used in the sense of ritual uncleanliness rather than immorality.

Romans 1:18–27 condemns homosexual shrine prostitution - Romans 1:18–27 “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts,to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”

People read this and assume the Apostle Paul was talking about all homosexuality. Not true and it becomes clear when you study ancient history.

In ancient Rome, older men would have sex with young boys as they taught them how to be Roman citizens. Shrine prostitution was also being addressed. Members of the Cult of Cybele for example would worship Cybele, mother of gods by engaging in ecstatic and frenzied dancing. Things would get out of control when worshipers got drunk and did drugs up the anus rather than the mouth. This was to give a more powerful effect. Priests dressed as women and had orgies with other members. They castrated and whipped themselves until they bled. Some sacrificed a bull then bathed in it's blood. The Roman gov. officials were so horrified by this behavior (i was horrified too when i learned about it), they outlawed it and had cult members tortured or killed if they practiced it.

You can see more here. 

Is homosexuality a sin?

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8 hours ago, Isaiah90 said:

I know this claim will start alot of controversy so its up for discussion. After studying the Bible, i realized the Bible does not condemn all forms of homosexuality. The Bible condemns homosexuality that’s based on exploitation, lust, and idolatry. Here’s the proof.

It is the case that the exploitation of any human being, regardless of orientation is wrong or, in religious terms, sin. It is also the case that if one actually worships another human being, rather than God, at least from a religious perspective, that is sin (some without a religious persuasion might consider it wrong). Of course, if we say of a man that he 'worships' his wife, that is not in the same category and is judged to be a good thing and she a happy woman (and vice versa). As for lust, on the surface that seems essential to a healthy love relationship. Although, if we want to get technical, to lust suggests that one 'desires' the other for oneself and not for (the sake of) the other - lust in this case would be judged by many to be wrong and for the religious person, sin.

I have not done a study of the bible on homosexuality, so I trust, as you say, that it does not condemn homosexual. However it it did, I would have to say this particular 'insight' was wrong. 

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Isaiah, you asking a weak question and answering it with supposition instead of enlightenment.

The bigger question is how and why does sexual ideation and behavior influence one’s spiritual condition.  This is universal in all religious traditions.

 

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Isaiah … for me you will have show that sin actually exists in some form beyond our personal and textual perceptions.

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17 hours ago, Isaiah90 said:

 

Isaiah,

I like Burl's bigger question but you or any of us can ask any question, large or small, and others will or will not engage.

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It seems to me, that if one esteems or believes in his/her heart that something (such as an act) is a sin and then engages in it, to him it is most definitely a sin. That act includes homosexuallity regardless of the words found in ones  religious book or guide.

Joseph

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Commentary on the true question.

Diana Khoi Nguyen, “Vow.” 
 

It will be windy for a while until it isn’t. The waves will shoal.


A red-legged cormorant will trace her double along glassy water, forgetting they are hungry.


The sea will play this motif over and over, but there will be no preparing for it otherwise.

Water will quiver in driftwood. Sound preceding absence, a white dog trailing a smaller one: ghost and noon shadow, two motes disappearing into surf.
 

And when the low tide comes lapping and clear, the curled fronds of seaweed will furl and splay, their algal sisters brushing strands against sands where littleneck clams feed underwater.
 

Light rain will fall and one cannot help but lean into the uncertainty of the sea.

Bow: a knot of two loops, two loose ends, our bodies on either side of this shore where we
will dip our hands to feel what can’t be seen.
 

Horseshoe crabs whose blue blood rich in copper will reach for cover, hinged between clouds and sea.
 

It will never be enough, the bull kelp like a whip coiling in tender hands, hands who know to take or be taken, but take nothing with them: I will marry you.

I will marry you. So we can owe what we own to every beautiful thing.

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On 10/7/2019 at 10:00 PM, Isaiah90 said:

I know this claim will start alot of controversy so its up for discussion. After studying the Bible, i realized the Bible does not condemn all forms of homosexuality. The Bible condemns homosexuality that’s based on exploitation, lust, and idolatry. Here’s the proof.

Leviticus 18:22 does not condemn all homosexuality - Many English translations make it seem like Leviticus 18:22 condemns homosexuality. However, this is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew text. In Hebrew, it says "we et zakar lo tishkav mishkeveh Ishah Towebah hi." In English, it literally reads "and with a male, you shall not lie with in the beds of a woman. It is an abomination." What do beds of women have to do with homosexuality? People in ancient times engaged in what’s called “shrine prostitution.” Men and women had different beds. Men would have homosexual sex on the beds of women in worship of their gods. Towebah is used in the sense of ritual uncleanliness rather than immorality.

Romans 1:18–27 condemns homosexual shrine prostitution - Romans 1:18–27 “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts,to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”

People read this and assume the Apostle Paul was talking about all homosexuality. Not true and it becomes clear when you study ancient history.

In ancient Rome, older men would have sex with young boys as they taught them how to be Roman citizens. Shrine prostitution was also being addressed. Members of the Cult of Cybele for example would worship Cybele, mother of gods by engaging in ecstatic and frenzied dancing. Things would get out of control when worshipers got drunk and did drugs up the anus rather than the mouth. This was to give a more powerful effect. Priests dressed as women and had orgies with other members. They castrated and whipped themselves until they bled. Some sacrificed a bull then bathed in it's blood. The Roman gov. officials were so horrified by this behavior (i was horrified too when i learned about it), they outlawed it and had cult members tortured or killed if they practiced it.

You can see more here. 

Is homosexuality a sin?

You're delusion. "A man shall not lie with another man" is "a man shall not lie with another man".

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9 hours ago, gaviria.christian said:

You're delusion. "A man shall not lie with another man" is "a man shall not lie with another man".

Say what now?

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23 minutes ago, gaviria.christian said:

I quoted exactly what is written in the Law of God, which is the Torah, "a man shall not lie with another man".

 If the commandments are summarized (and fulfilled) by obedience to the two great commandments of love for God and love for one's neighbor - where is there any mention about homosexuality? If God is Love,  then 1st great commandment is continually obeyed if one loves: the 1st is fulfilled by the fulfillment of the 2nd great commandment (they are one).  If one incarnates Love in the world, where are they commanded to withhold that love for another when neither had a choice whom to love - but want simply to love? Is all love not God?

 

Edited by thormas

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21 minutes ago, thormas said:

 If the commandments are summarized (and fulfilled) by obedience to the two great commandments of love for God and love for one's neighbor - where is there any mention about homosexuality? If God is Love,  then 1st great commandment is continually obeyed if one loves: the 1st is fulfilled by the fulfillment of the 2nd great commandment (they are one).  If one incarnates Love in the world, where are they commanded to withhold that love for another when neither had a choice whom to love - but want simply to love? Is all love not God?

 

The commandments to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself includes all the other commandments of the Torah, not excludes them. You have misinterpreted these two commands, and have subsequently fallen out of love, into torahlessness, and into a delusion thinking that an act contrary to nature is "love". It would be like someone that justifies having sex with his dog because "he loves his dog". It is perversion and delusion, and contrary to what the Law of God, which is the Torah, teaches and commands.

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Gavina, there are many problems with your post but the greatest are that you not understand the nature of sin, you made an incomplete and misleading sub-selection of Romans, and have an outdated or weak translation.  

Romans 1:18-30 is the entire pericope.  Use the ESV version where the word ‘homosexuality’ is (quite correctly) not used or go to the Greek.


 

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1 hour ago, gaviria.christian said:

The commandments to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself includes all the other commandments of the Torah, not excludes them. You have misinterpreted these two commands, and have subsequently fallen out of love, into torahlessness, and into a delusion thinking that an act contrary to nature is "love". It would be like someone that justifies having sex with his dog because "he loves his dog". It is perversion and delusion, and contrary to what the Law of God, which is the Torah, teaches and commands.

Well if we go with the Ten, again nothing about homosexuality. Also it is not I who summed up the commandments in the 2.

Plus, I have not misinterpreted anything. And since I'm actually a Christian, I don't live and breath the Torah.  Accused of ....torahlessness, I sort of like it. Are there shirts?

Prove that homosexuality is contrary to nature and cannot be love. Get to know some gay people and experience how simply loving many, many are and, oh BTW, don't judge. Hey, wasn't Lazarus gay? It just always seemed to me he was gay. There was mention of sisters, but no wife and kids (not that a gay man can't have kids...or a wife); he just always struck me as gay and look what Jesus did for him.

Be realistic! Can you name one person who justifies sex with dogs - unless it is another dog, or perhaps a dog like creature, like a wolf? Dog sex is contrary to the law of god? I didn't even think it applied to dogs. Something new, every day.

 

 

 

 

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On 11/4/2019 at 12:03 PM, thormas said:

Well if we go with the Ten, again nothing about homosexuality. Also it is not I who summed up the commandments in the 2.

Plus, I have not misinterpreted anything. And since I'm actually a Christian, I don't live and breath the Torah.  Accused of ....torahlessness, I sort of like it. Are there shirts?

Prove that homosexuality is contrary to nature and cannot be love. Get to know some gay people and experience how simply loving many, many are and, oh BTW, don't judge. Hey, wasn't Lazarus gay? It just always seemed to me he was gay. There was mention of sisters, but no wife and kids (not that a gay man can't have kids...or a wife); he just always struck me as gay and look what Jesus did for him.

Be realistic! Can you name one person who justifies sex with dogs - unless it is another dog, or perhaps a dog like creature, like a wolf? Dog sex is contrary to the law of god? I didn't even think it applied to dogs. Something new, every day.

 

 

 

 

The Torah is more than the "ten commandments", it is the entire first five books of the bible, which define everything that is sin. Homosexuality is forbidden and punishable by death according to the Torah. And what more proof do you need that homosexuality is not natural by the mere fact that the semen the body of a man produces is made to impregnate the body of a woman? Are you so reprobate in your own mind not to understand this basic biology of our human bodies? Sex is a great gift God has given man, which gives man much pleasure, and in the beginning God commanded us to have sex, "be fruitful and multiply", but choosing to have sex also comes with parameters. You cannot have sex with relates. You cannot have sex with parents. You cannot have sex with animals. You cannot have sex with a person of the same gender. God does not forbid us from having sex, but if we choose to do so, we must understand the parameters that he requires when we do have sex. He is the creator of our bodies and has every right to demand how we are to perform sex, and how we are not. This is all very obvious, and is defined in the Torah. Love and sex are two different things. We are not forbidden to love, and in fact, we are commanded to love, for men to love other men as brothers, and for women to love other women as sisters, but once men begin having sex with men and women having sex with women, it is no longer true love because it eventually brings punishment and death, so all it is it is covetousness for the unnatural and forbidden, masqueraded as love.

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GC,

When a man creates a New Will and testament it replaces the Old otherwise there will be much confusion. The New Testament is now made valid for Christians and it replaces the Old. Otherwise it would have been written and called the  supplement  to the Old Testament and not called the New Testament. That is my way of looking at it. As far as homosexuallity is concerned, all i know for sure is that the gay people i personally know seem like the most loving, caring and sensitive people i have met that would harm no one. I would say let God be God and the judge and those of us who still see darkly ..... forgiving and non-judgemental. For with what measure you measure , it shall be measured back unto you. That i believe is a good reason to leave condemnation and judgement out of one's personal hands. One greater than yourself is able to sort things out on such as this issue.  

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1 hour ago, gaviria.christian said:

The Torah is more than the "ten commandments", it is the entire first five books of the bible, which define everything that is sin. Homosexuality is forbidden and punishable by death according to the Torah. And what more proof do you need that homosexuality is not natural by the mere fact that the semen the body of a man produces is made to impregnate the body of a woman? Are you so reprobate in your own mind not to understand this basic biology of our human bodies? Sex is a great gift God has given man, which gives man much pleasure, and in the beginning God commanded us to have sex, "be fruitful and multiply", but choosing to have sex also comes with parameters. You cannot have sex with relates. You cannot have sex with parents. You cannot have sex with animals. You cannot have sex with a person of the same gender. God does not forbid us from having sex, but if we choose to do so, we must understand the parameters that he requires when we do have sex. He is the creator of our bodies and has every right to demand how we are to perform sex, and how we are not. This is all very obvious, and is defined in the Torah. Love and sex are two different things. We are not forbidden to love, and in fact, we are commanded to love, for men to love other men as brothers, and for women to love other women as sisters, but once men begin having sex with men and women having sex with women, it is no longer true love because it eventually brings punishment and death, so all it is it is covetousness for the unnatural and forbidden, masqueraded as love.

You're barking (no dog sex pun intended) up the wrong tree. But really, quit talking about sex with animals. 

You're on a progressive site and although you're entitled to your opinion, this is a site where I suspect most don't accept the Bible as a revelation from God but as human insight into God and man. And, surprise, many of those insights have changed over time, including the recognition that homosexual orientation is indeed natural, it is not chosen, it is 'baked in' - you find yourself homosexual (or heterosexual). If it is not chosen, one cannot be blameworthy (which goes to sin). Who, therefore would suggest that a man who can only love another man and finds such love, cannot express that Love? Last time I looked, love - compassion care and concern for the other - is God and such love, can be expressed in heterosexual love and can be expressed in homosexual love.

Is heterosexual love just about where A is inserted into B or is it so much more? It is about life: sharing, caring, being there, suffering with, celebrating with, mourning for, wishing to take on all the suffering of the beloved - is it the simple human need, the simple human joy of being for and being together  So too, homosexual love is so much more than merely where A is inserted: it too is the simple human need, the simple human joy of being for and being together. Let it be.

 

BTW, I still want that torahlessness shirt and a reprobate one could be a nice wardrobe addition also.

 

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GC,

What's more important to me than some words that a certain culture may or may not have accepted back millennia ago, is how we as a modern human race consider things that we now know a  lot more about.  Maybe they were against gays back 2000-3000 years ago, but these were also people who stoned people to death for having an affair, who thought it okay to makes slaves of people, who thought it good that they killed the children of their enemies by smashing open their skulls against rocks - the list goes on and on.  That was their view of the world back then.  We can move past that.  For those that are gay - all power to them and I hope they are happy in their life.

Cheers

Paul

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On 11/6/2019 at 7:47 PM, PaulS said:

What's more important to me than some words that a certain culture may or may not have accepted back millennia ago, is how we as a modern human race consider things that we now know a  lot more about. 

ding! ding! ding! ding!

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4 minutes ago, romansh said:

ding! ding! ding! ding!

I double those dings on this issue!

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1 minute ago, thormas said:

I double those dings on this issue!

Why just this issue?

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Well, there are certain insights that past cultures got right (IMO) - and I agree with some of those insights. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 11:45 AM, thormas said:

Well, there are certain insights that past cultures got right (IMO) - and I agree with some of those insights. 

Well this seems closer to the truth.  Using ancient texts to confirm our biases/opinions when the texts confirm our biases. I suppose alternatively we can semantically twist the meaning of the texts to conform to our biases/opinions.

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1 hour ago, romansh said:

Well this seems closer to the truth.  Using ancient texts to confirm our biases/opinions when the texts confirm our biases. 

Alternatively, one could say that the truth has a Reality of its own and it has been grasped by certain individuals or even numerous people and later individuals and people also recognize Truth - and thus wisdom is born. So too, it is evident that with a different worldview some things become more obvious (ala homosexuality) and thus there are differences - although it might have been just as obvious in an earlier age by 'enligntened' individuals. I have not found any comments by Jesus against homosexuality and I never remember reading anything from the Buddha or Lao Tzu.

 

Edited by thormas

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1 hour ago, romansh said:

I suppose alternatively we can semantically twist the meaning of the texts to conform to our biases/opinions.

One reads experts, compares them and measures his/her understanding against them - in order to avoid such twisting.

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