Retired

[Guest intuition]

I’m retire now. I was born into a traditional conservative mainstream Christian denomination. Several clergymen in the family, including my father. I first stated to question the idea that only Christian’s go to heaven when I was a 19’ish. I remember looking at a map in a Sunday school class that identified areas of the world by when Christianity reached them; I remember thinking to myself “so before 300 AD they all went to hell?” This did not make sense to me. Since then I finished two degrees in university (math & economics), got a job, got married, had two children and have continued to attend church regularly since then; I have only discussed these questions with my wife.

Over the past two decades, after the kids moved out, I began to read books. The first two books that I read in the 1990’s were The Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav and Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore. More recently I have read books by James Tabor, Karen Armstrong, John Esposito, Lesley Hazelton, Elaine Pagels, Bart Ehrman and others. Over the past couple of years, I’ve really enjoyed reading and listening to John Dominic Crossan & Marcus Borg.

My favorite philosopher is Immanuel Kant, I read his work for the first time in my university days. My favorite quote is “We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.” This has been credited to a number of people over the centuries, including Immanuel Kant, the oldest reference being Rabbi Shemuel ben Nachmani in the 3rd century CE. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/03/09/as-we-are/

My pet peeve is when I hear someone describe theism, agnosticism and atheism as having a linear relationship; i.e. theism and atheism on opposite ends with agnosticism in the middle. I think these three concepts are categorically/nominally related. (note: Lesley Hazelton’s book Agnostic: A Spirited Manifesto is a very good read)

Having said all that, particularly over the past several years, I am not sure where I fit on the political or spiritual spectrum.

I am interested in discussing these issues in one of these forums. Any suggestions which forums I should look at?

[Burl]

Welcome to our little club!  

[Guest intuition]

Thank you!

[JosephM]

Welcome intuition,

Thanks for the introduction. Retired here also with traditional Christian upbringing. While i don't particularly like labels and fixed concepts, progressive on the front end of Christianity seems fine to me but as you will find out there is no set in concrete dogma or doctrine that comes with it. The 8 points are brief and not limiting to ones journey. That's a good place to start. Post any topic you would like to discuss in debate and dialog section as long as you are not offended by differing views.

Again, welcome,

Joseph

[romansh]

Welcome intuition

I too am retired … sort of.

Anyway I sort of enjoyed Hazleton's book … you can find my review of it here. To me it was not really about agnosticism … more its subtitle. 

And we do have a thread on agnosticism  and it is sort of a hobby of mine. But I do agree it is not about some mid point but more about how we handle knowledge and understanding in general. And most importantly it is not just about god or the lack of. It is about the universe. Of course your Kant touches on this with his phenomenon and noumenon.

Welcome again.

rom

Edited April 20, 2019 by romansh

[Guest intuition]

Hello JosephM,

Thanks for the comments. I have read and appreciate the 8 points. My preference is that there are no concrete dogma or doctrine. I like Kant’s challenge to dare to know or think for yourself (Sapere aude). Unfortunately, dogma and doctrine tend to creep into more than what we traditional think of as religion; e.g. popularized social and political beliefs, whether they are on the left or right end of the spectrum.

I’m looking forward to discussing different or conflicting ideas ..... as opposed to arguing about them.

Thanks for the welcome.

p.s. I like your quote, it reminds me of Voltaire’s famous quote “If you wish to converse with me, define your terms.”
 

[Guest intuition]

Hello Romansh,

Thanks for the welcome.

I liked your review of Hazleton’s book. I did not agree with everything she said, however, what I liked most about her book was that it was the first time I’d read someone who presented a explanation of agnosticism that was, so-to-speak, mutually exclusive from atheism. Too often I have seen others group agnosticism and atheism together as if they are fraternal twins. Call me a purist. 😊

I will definitely have a look the agnosticism thread. Thanks for telling me about it.

[romansh]

18 hours ago, intuition said:

Too often I have seen others group agnosticism and atheism together as if they are fraternal twins.

Siblings with different parents perhaps?

This whole thing gets very semantic very quickly, but that is another thread. I like arguments … ie the logical ones where we have premises well defined and the logic follows.  Quarrels are not so hot.  

If you like having your terms defined, then the ignosticism thread is for you