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Deadworm

Do many progressives lack intellectual integrity?

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Hope that thread title got your attention!  I intend this thread to focus on these 2 issues:

(1) Many progressives dismiss the effectiveness of petitionary prayer without even investigating the biblical conditions for a successful prayer life.   In the Gospels, Jesus often wanders away outdoors from the daily grind of crowd demanding His attention, forcing His disciples to search for Him.  Once when they track Him down and witness His intense focus on prayer, the ask Him to teach them how to pray.  How well do you know biblical prayer principles and how often do you practice them?  How many types of prayer can you identify and have you practiced?  In his excellent book "Prayer,"  Quaker scholar Richard Foster identifies and discusses 22 types!  Since my retirement as a UMC pastor in July, 2015, I have been part of a small weekly Monday prayer group (5 or 6 members) that has seen many healing miracles and other answers to prayer.  I my well share  some of these on this thread.   But I'm not trying to win an apologetic argument here.  Rather, I want readers to learn by doing, by applying these prayer principles to their lives, so that they have their own testimonies.

(2) Of course if you've never experienced a miracle, it will be harder for you to accept Gospel miracle stories.  Being brain-washed by so-called progressive NT scholars like Borg and Spong, many progressives blindly embrace the dogma that our Gospels are so far removed from the events that their miracle stories are full of myths and legends.  They drink this Kool-Aid because they lack the intellectual integrity to examine both sides of the question.  To demonstrate this claim I'm issuing this challenge:  Do you even know how evangelicals establish a connection between our Gospels and eyewitness testimony?   Why do I think I'll only receive facile straw man arguments that are easily refuted?

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Of course if you've never experienced a miracle

What's the difference between a miracle and something we don't have the wit to understand?

4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Being brain-washed by so-called progressive NT scholars like Borg and Spong, many progressives blindly embrace the dogma that our Gospels are so far removed from the events that their miracle stories are full of myths and legends. 

That should go down well.

4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

They drink this Kool-Aid because they lack the intellectual integrity to examine both sides of the question.

Yep, this is sad.

4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Why do I think I'll only receive facile straw man arguments that are easily refuted?

🙅‍♂️

Edited by romansh

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Rpman: "What's the difference between a miracle and something we don't understand?"
The difference is often blurred because of our ignorance of the mind's latent psychic talents and where the line should be drawn between divine intervention and poorly understood laws of Nature;  But I think patterns of answers to  prayer with clear paranormal aspects are justifiably termed a "miracle: e. g. The malignant brain tumors of 2 people--one Rhonda, an elderly lady and the other Shane, a young skeptic, both of whom were healed in the same week after our prayer group prayed for them.  As a result, Shane converted to the faith, was recently baptized, and posted before and after photos of his tumor on Facebook.  More obvious examples like the local healing of the blind, sending a local nurse into hysteria can be given.  I may start a thread on our prayer group to provide more examples.  Some of the miracles associated with ADCs (after-death communication) and NDEs are as stunning as any of Jesus' resurrection appearances.  I may start a thread documenting some of these.

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On 3/6/2019 at 3:24 PM, Deadworm said:

Rpman: "What's the difference between a miracle and something we don't understand?"
The difference is often blurred because of our ignorance of the mind's latent psychic talents and where the line should be drawn between divine intervention and poorly understood laws of Nature;  But I think patterns of answers to  prayer with clear paranormal aspects are justifiably termed a "miracle: e. g. The malignant brain tumors of 2 people--one Rhonda, an elderly lady and the other Shane, a young skeptic, both of whom were healed in the same week after our prayer group prayed for them.  As a result, Shane converted to the faith, was recently baptized, and posted before and after photos of his tumor on Facebook.  More obvious examples like the local healing of the blind, sending a local nurse into hysteria can be given.  I may start a thread on our prayer group to provide more examples.  Some of the miracles associated with ADCs (after-death communication) and NDEs are as stunning as any of Jesus' resurrection appearances.  I may start a thread documenting some of these.

About 29,000 children under the age of five – 21 each minute – die every day, mainly from preventable causes. More than 70 per cent of almost 11 million child deaths every year are attributable to six causes: diarrhoea, malaria, neonatal infection, pneumonia, preterm delivery, or lack of oxygen at birth.  

Gee I'd like to see some prayers answered about fixing that.

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Respectfully, Paul, your response demonstrates an ignorance of the NT principles of how intercessory prayer works.  Perhaps I should eventually start a thread on the subject to demonstrate in detail what I mean.

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7 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Respectfully, Paul, your response demonstrates an ignorance of the NT principles of how intercessory prayer works.  Perhaps I should eventually start a thread on the subject to demonstrate in detail what I mean.

Maybe so, but when people cite examples of prayer 'working' I'm always amazed at how ineffective it seems to be for the bigger issues such as world hunger or cases like I cited with children.  Miraculously, answers to prayer always seem to be so on such a small scale.  Clearly not small for Rhonda or Shane as you mention, but I'm sure a few of those 21 children who die every minute of the clock must be asking the question why somebody doesn't effectively pray for them!

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3 hours ago, PaulS said:

Maybe so, but when people cite examples of prayer 'working' I'm always amazed at how ineffective it seems to be for the bigger issues such as world hunger or cases like I cited with children.  Miraculously, answers to prayer always seem to be so on such a small scale.  Clearly not small for Rhonda or Shane as you mention, but I'm sure a few of those 21 children who die every minute of the clock must be asking the question why somebody doesn't effectively pray for them!

World hunger and healthcare are overhelmingly caused by human sin, and can be rather easily corrected if mankind simply had had the political will.  

Prayer works on an individual level.  How are you personally praying for these children?   Maybe we can get some insight into what you are doing wrong.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Respectfully, Paul, your response demonstrates an ignorance of the NT principles of how intercessory prayer works.  Perhaps I should eventually start a thread on the subject to demonstrate in detail what I mean.

If you mean by prayer getting off our butt's and doing something then I would agree. But I would argue we need the teaching a person to fish homily here rather than just aid. 

6 hours ago, Burl said:

World hunger and healthcare are overhelmingly caused by human sin, and can be rather easily corrected if mankind simply had had the political will.

If by sin you mean ignorance I agree. 

6 hours ago, Burl said:

Prayer works on an individual level.  How are you personally praying for these children?   Maybe we can get some insight into what you are doing wrong.

Pray tell us, how do you pray Burl. Lead by example. 

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On 3/5/2019 at 11:24 PM, Deadworm said:

Rhonda, an elderly lady and the other Shane, a young skeptic,

The plural of anecdote is not data.

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My most frequent prayer is, "Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a poor sinner."

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15 hours ago, Burl said:

Prayer works on an individual level.  How are you personally praying for these children?   Maybe we can get some insight into what you are doing wrong.

No, you miss the point Burl.  It's not about what I am doing wrong, it's about what those who believe prayer works aren't doing or are doing wrong because clearly they're not having an impact with their praying when it comes to stemming the flow of needless child deaths.

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On 3/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, Deadworm said:

Respectfully, Paul, your response demonstrates an ignorance of the NT principles of how intercessory prayer works.  Perhaps I should eventually start a thread on the subject to demonstrate in detail what I mean.

With all respect, that seems to be a common response from those who promote intercessory prayer.  But clearly it's not just my lack of understanding that fails to see miraculous intervention for so many dying children, but it would seem to be everybody else on the planet who prays.  Like you said, prayer caused intervention for Rhonda and Shane, it just doesn't seem to want to work for those dying children.

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