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Yoga and Meditation Increase Narcissism

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4 hours ago, thormas said:

To put it another way, I believe that Love 'waits for all time' until all become love (divinity dwelling in humanity), all become new men and women (sons an daughter of the first born Son who because of degree of his love became Human (because he embodied the Divine, the Absolute

I like this. I believe that love is the actualising of potentiality, insofaras we are aware of that potentiality. For you that potentiality appears to be limited to Human, so that (eventually) divinity is dwelling in humanity, whereas for me it is unlimited: 'humanity' as a limitation falls away and we become all, divinity, love.

I hope I'm following your understanding of these terms, but I get the feeling this is not quite what you mean. 

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1 hour ago, thormas said:

Given what you have said, you might take the mother's "No!" when her child reaches for the hot oven as warning whereas I take it as judgment. The child is stopped dead in their tracks and made (invited) to see, to consider and decide. This judgment is always for the other. In biblical understanding the Word of God is always redemptive, mean to heal or make whole the beloved, so too judgment. And man is meant to 'judge' the same way, lovingly.

I understand that the Word of God is always redemptive, but the word 'judgement' as written in both the Old and New Testament seems to always follow the action rather than preempting choice as in your examples, and also suggests a conclusion or decision in its context. I don't think I'm reading that into the text, and I'd be interested in hearing a non-catholic point of view on the use of 'judgement' in scripture, for clarity.

I can see, however, how 'judgement' implied by Catholic tradition and read into the text can be interpreted in the way you describe. But that discourse can also be interpreted by fundamentalists, atheists and anyone who has not read Baum, in terms of the commonly held understanding of 'judgement' outside of this 'loving' interpretation. 

Because of this, I will continue to distinguish 'warning' from 'judgement' according to commonly held understanding of the terms rather than Baum's interpretation of Catholic discourse. I sincerely hope you don't mind.

Edited by possibility

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3 hours ago, thormas said:

Actually I think just the opposite. I think Christianity and those who have thought deeply on subjects important to them and it over the centuries have great insights into life, meaning, God and man. I also think there is a great wisdom in the reality of 'ordinary' human beings - and by that I mean those who merely live and have neither the time or interest in such discussions. I think it is important to look to and appreciate the lived experience of 'most humans.'

I don't deny this, and I'm not dismissing their value. I just don't think we should confine ourselves to these sources. In appreciating the diversity of the universe, we can welcome the subjective experiences of the anomalous and the marginalised as indicative of the potentiality that exists beyond our current understanding. This how we have grown to accept the diversity of gender identity, for example.

4 hours ago, thormas said:

I think there is a humility is most serious religious thinkers in that they know they can never definitively know and I extend that wisdom to the scientific quest.

Humility is a strange word - it suggests an acceptance of limitation. I am aware that I cannot definitively 'know' potentiality in terms of subjective experience, such is its infinitude. That would be like striving to 'know' Pi in terms of its full digital expression - any articulation of it would either be an abstraction or an approximation at best. Yet we 'know' that a number exists which, for all intents and purposes, is 'infinitely diverse' in its expression. At any moment we can choose to accept the symbol, confine or expand it to x decimal places or strive to actualise the absolute potentiality of its unique expression, confident that it can occur even if we 'know' that no full actuality will occur in time or space. In all but the last option, there is danger in losing sight of the infinity of its full expression, in settling for or believing the chosen approximation as actual.

That the frontiers of science and mathematics refuse to settle for anything less than this last option is an admirable quest, in my opinion. That both scientific and religious thinkers very often choose to settle within certain apparent limitations is unfortunate.

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9 hours ago, possibility said:

I understand that the Word of God is always redemptive, but the word 'judgement' as written in both the Old and New Testament seems to always follow the action rather than preempting choice as in your examples, and also suggests a conclusion or decision in its context. I don't think I'm reading that into the text, and I'd be interested in hearing a non-catholic point of view on the use of 'judgement' in scripture, for clarity.

I can see, however, how 'judgement' implied by Catholic tradition and read into the text can be interpreted in the way you describe. But that discourse can also be interpreted by fundamentalists, atheists and anyone who has not read Baum, in terms of the commonly held understanding of 'judgement' outside of this 'loving' interpretation. 

Because of this, I will continue to distinguish 'warning' from 'judgement' according to commonly held understanding of the terms rather than Baum's interpretation of Catholic discourse. I sincerely hope you don't mind.

Again, I disagree on biblical judgment - as shown in the parables that we discussed. I take the broader understanding of judgment in that even when reading a book or watching a movie, you can hear/see something that causes you to look at yourself, your actions and consider them in this new light. Again, an opportunity is presented/realized and if you take it, it can make all the difference whereas if you don't, the danger is that you have lost the opportunity (at least in that moment and perhaps longer) and might be or do 'less' than you could. I don't understand judgment as negative but rather, life-giving. Choice is not preempted, possibilities are revealed and the choice is before us. The possibilities are presented to both the adulteress and the crowd and their choice is to be made, not only that day but in their futures.  

Not sure which Catholic tradition you refer to since there is more than one and understanding changes (plus I would think many Catholics, down through the ages, would understand judgment as condemnation). Further, I know that a fundamentalist or an atheist might have a different reading, nevertheless, it is always interesting to ask, since the gospel is 'good news' which news is better and goes to the healing (redemption) of those who receive that news. This understanding (of judgment) is not implied by but presented in the stories and there is or can be an "Aha" moment.

You may of course distinguish what you will and I don't mind. The point was not to convert but to present and I know from teaching experiences, many/most 'get' this understanding when presented in that setting.

p.s. your 'warning' is also a moment of chaos, presenting an opportunity and danger if the opportunity is ignored, The simple difference is either that, as we have discussed, I am stretching language or simply recognizing what judgment actually means. So, likewise, I hope you don't mind.

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8 hours ago, possibility said:

 I just don't think we should confine ourselves to these sources. In appreciating the diversity of the universe, we can welcome the subjective experiences of the anomalous and the marginalised as indicative of the potentiality that exists beyond our current understanding. This how we have grown to accept the diversity of gender identity, for example.

You are changing the argument, you said it was restrictive and I disagreed - but I did not state we should confine ourselves to this source. And, actually, I don't. 

Actually humility is not all that strange and it does not preclude confident or lose sight of the infinite in creation.

As indicated, I too admire and encourage the quest of science; the science and the religious thinkers I know don't settle but are wise enough to realize that they will never capture the Absolute.

 

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12 hours ago, possibility said:

I like this. I believe that love is the actualising of potentiality, insofaras we are aware of that potentiality. For you that potentiality appears to be limited to Human, so that (eventually) divinity is dwelling in humanity, whereas for me it is unlimited: 'humanity' as a limitation falls away and we become all, divinity, love.

I hope I'm following your understanding of these terms, but I get the feeling this is not quite what you mean. 

Love is not limited to humans but humanity has been the topic under discussion and the one we know best. However, I do allow that humanity, seemingly the only self-conscious beings (although I am open to and excited about the grand possibilities of other such beings) seemingly has a different degree of participation in Consciousness and the 'potential' to be the likeness of God.

I do like Paul's image of all of creation groaning for fulfillment. Obviously all that is, participates in Being but what this suggests about their 'destiny' I don't have a firm handle on (as none do since all is speculation/belief).

Perhaps it is in the wording: for me, humanity does not fall away - rather it is Fulfilled in Divinity or we become Human by 'becoming' Divine: incarnation (not traditionally understood) is oneness. What that means for the entirety of the created order, I don't know but I believe it is not 'left behind' but also fulfilled. The analogy for me is human love (in spite of the flaws): there is fulfillment in such love, there is the two becoming one (in some real way), in losing self (with self-centeredness falling away) and fulfilling self in the other. Neither self or person 'falls away' yet there is oneness (as finite beings, so to speak).

I am always struck with two thoughts when trying to 'figure' this out: first, that one is the loneliest number and second, that the (true) Lover does not want the Beloved to fall away but to be, to thrive, to live abundantly. So, for me, creation is 'real' -  it is not merely the Absolute throwing itself out there to know itself, express itself or for some other reason and it is not merely the One doing whatever to still, merely, be One. Rather, it is the creating of the beloved, on behalf of the beloved: Love (especially 'Absolute Love') must always be given away, must always be gift, must always be about and for the Beloved so they (can) have life and have it in abundance. So too, (and obviously expressed from the human perspective), would the Lover ever want or desire the Beloved to 'fall away' or rather to Live and live Abundantly? I also always remember Alfred North Whitehead's concept of Beauty that the unity of the many is a higher Beauty than the unity of the one. So, we (seemingly) agree on the 'end' - we just think in different images.

 

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I think one could biblically say to judge someone is synonymous with measuring especially in the reported teachings of Jesus. Judgement to me is measuring one against one's own or perhaps a society created standard commonly held. Since it is subjective in nature and not necessarily the same for all societies or individuals for all time i see it as the justification for wars and many atrocities which precedes suffering. Hence the advice for one not to measure or judge others lest we are found in condemnation of self. 

 

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