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JosephM

Open Borders?

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Just curious. There have been a number of people in the US that seem to advocate "open borders". I don't know exactly what they mean by that but i would like to understand their thinking on what seems like a radical move to me. Anyone here that is in favor of such or understands the thinking on such a concept to explain? 

Joseph

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Yes ... the US should have open borders ... to let poor Americans out of the madness they have recently elected.

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Rom,

Most here in my community support the elected president. We don't place much weight on what the main stream media reports. It seems too much of the news is policticly motivated.

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Then again, some of us prefer the media and trust the DOJ and FBI as opposed to the stream of lies coming from the Trumpster. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, JosephM said:

Rom,

Most here in my community support the elected president. We don't place much weight on what the main stream media reports. It seems too much of the news is policticly motivated.

If your community does not want "politically motivated" then I would suggest avoid politicians. 

Of course it, the news, is politically motivated ... that's what politics is about ... motivating people politically.  Rupert Murdoch!

But to your point on open borders. If a nation is xenophobic and does not want a whole bunch of foreigners coming, then a logical process might be helping out the foreigners in their home countries to make their lives more tolerable in their homelands. I remember having my Ford Escort being assembled in Mexico and people complaining why was it not assembled in Canada or the USA. By all means we can send aid, but for god's sake lets not send them a job?

Of course the US and no doubt other countries are quite willing to bring in rich and educated from impoverished countries. I have mixed feelings when countries like Canada bring doctors from third world countries and then send in aid to these countries. Of course there has been a big sucking sound here in Canada as the US has taken up health professions from here.  This of course is diminished as Trump's USA has become less desirable.

Edited by romansh

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Rom,

Do you think helping foreigners should be the charter of the government or left to the individual? And Why?

 

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Be careful with the word "should", Joseph. 

Assuming the universe is not set in concrete and cause and effect hold sway: then every action will have a consequence, and of course there will likely be unintended consequences. So any model we choose will be wrong, but hopefully some will be useful. 

So if we act solely in our immediate self interest (as the US as appeared to have done by electing Trump) this will have consequences. If we take a longer term look to our self interest, eg having steady partners (military and trade)  on our ever increasingly global borders, then I don't see isolationism being a benefit to any nation.

Specifically a charter? I don't know. Left to the individual? To be effective there is likely an effective size for an organization to accomplish this supposed altruism. That would likely depend on luck as much as anything. I suspect you are asking "should" all individuals be required to contribute to the nation's security? I'll let you answer that.

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5 hours ago, romansh said:

(snip)

So if we act solely in our immediate self interest (as the US as appeared to have done by electing Trump) this will have consequences. If we take a longer term look to our self interest, eg having steady partners (military and trade)  on our ever increasingly global borders, then I don't see isolationism being a benefit to any nation.

Specifically a charter? I don't know. Left to the individual? To be effective there is likely an effective size for an organization to accomplish this supposed altruism. That would likely depend on luck as much as anything. I suspect you are asking "should" all individuals be required to contribute to the nation's security? I'll let you answer that.

I personally don't see controls on our borders and immigration checks and limits as isolationism. I view it as being wise at this time. Perhaps you are stretching it a bit with the word isolationism?

On the second statement i was looking for your answer not mine. We could always remove the word "should" if it pleases you and ask what you are in favor of and why?

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20 hours ago, JosephM said:

I personally don't see controls on our borders and immigration checks and limits as isolationism. I view it as being wise at this time. Perhaps you are stretching it a bit with the word isolationism?

On the second statement i was looking for your answer not mine. We could always remove the word "should" if it pleases you and ask what you are in favor of and why?

Here you are switching gears Joseph. You asked whether::

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:26 PM, JosephM said:

helping foreigners should be the charter of the government

Charter? Perhaps not. But I think it would make sense to be part of the plan. 

But the US is taking an isolationist role. Take a look at the uncertainty around tariffs on aluminium and steel with its partners -  never mind the opposition - China. The rhetoric around securing borders was and continues to be based of fear mongering and lies in general. This was design to appeal to isolationists. 

While helping out the less fortunate is part of the Christian ideology. Have we missed the meaning of the Good Samaritan parable? While I don't recommend this as a simple dogma, it does make sense. Ultimately we'll find a large disparity is unsustainable. If the US truly cannot accommodate more refugees, then fair enough, tighten up the borders. but show the working.  Trump thinks you can afford the wall, but not refugees. If I were a US citizen I would be asking for that particular analysis. But no we get fear mongering. 

Edited by romansh

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Rom,

Thanks for your answer. I guess we can't please everyone but it is interesting to see how foreigners think about it or see it and what their understanding is from the news they read.

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Illegal immigrants are exploited as cheap labor for big ag and construction industries who work them into an early grave, and also in human trafficking.  Undocumented means they are gray market labor, and that when they go missing nobody knows they were even here.

I have/am involved with Associated Catholic Charities and have seen thousands of Haitian, Vietnamese, Hmong and Cuban refugees legally immigrated to the US.  Legal immigrants not only avoid the wage slavery (and often literal slavery) of the illegal immigrants, but communites are held together as well.

Look behind every 1000 illegal immigrants and you will find a rich white man who profits off their fear and poverty.  This is why politicians of all stripes never make any actual impact.

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52 minutes ago, Burl said:

Illegal immigrants are exploited as cheap labor 

This reminds of a time in the eighties at a moderately swank hotel in Swaziland. My Dad and I got talking to a waiter serving drinks. His wish was to get into apartheid South Africa. When asked why, his answer was at least the South Africans would pay him. Foreign labour particularly in the mines did cause some strife.

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