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romansh

Ignosticism

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20 hours ago, thormas said:

Do you think cancer is loving or, conversely, that love is cancer? I must disagree with you there??.

Not at all; but it is in or of creation.

So at very best Love is acting in some bits of creation at some moments of time. Where is the Love of/for some mote of dust on the far side of the moon.

Quote

the woman you hold the door for

For me it is generally second nature and not limited to women. Love? I don't think so.

Edited by romansh

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Actually, although second nature for me also, it was an act of caring or concern taught to me, by example and in word, from when I was very young. Love in Christian circles is defined as 'compassionate concern' for the other: so indeed it is love - I know so.

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That certainly sounds true to me also Thomas . However, acceptance does not exclude action.  i would add that it seems to me that wiser actions come out only after acceptance of what is. Resistance to what is  (non acceptance or resistance) in my experience does not provide clarity of mind.

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Joseph,

 

If by acceptance you mean faith, i.e. the human response/acceptance to the self-giving God/Ultimate Reality and the resulting compassionate concern, I agree.

However, sometimes it is precisely refusing to accept that is the essential action. For example, refusing to accept a culture of intimidation or the bullying of the group that you might have belonged to as a kid.

So, acceptance of what? If it is 'what is' then, for you, what is?

 

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Thomas,

To do something about bullying or any other similar example, it seems to me one must first accept its reality. Acceptance to me is not agreement with a thing as right or wrong, From a spiritual point of view, it is more an internal space or vantage point of peace from which action can emanate without internal resistance, anger, malice, judgmentalism or any other negative states of consciousness associated with the mind. It seems to me, from that vantage point of acceptance one can more easily act out of compassion and wisdom.

I admit the word acceptance to many does have an implication of  non-action or agreement or consent but that is of course not the lntended spirit that i am  using it in.

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Okay, seem like a difference over word preference. I would say recognize, not accept, bullying and then act against it. But I get your line of thought and although I don't talk about internal space or vantage point, again I follow your line of thinking. For me, faith understood as a response to Being/Love results in wisdom and compassion. 

At some point you'll have to give your take on what is.

Thanks

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10 hours ago, thormas said:

At some point you'll have to give your take on what is.

Thanks

"What is" is simply that which is now.  Some people like to say... "it is what it is" ...... Some use the word " suchness "   It is not forever, it is reality right now. To many , it is nonsense. :)

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For me:

Acceptance:   Understanding things could not be otherwise, despite the many alternatives we can imagine for the past, present and future.

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23 hours ago, thormas said:

Actually, although second nature for me also, it was an act of caring or concern taught to me, by example and in word, from when I was very young. Love in Christian circles is defined as 'compassionate concern' for the other: so indeed it is love - I know so.

Do I take this God [as Love] simply becomes a very limited. Love created this universe? Really? I must admit I am struggling with this definition of God being Love and in all creation.

My take on Joseph's view is that his God  is close to being a pantheistic God. The universe and what we might not have observed is God. No separation between the universe and God so to speak.

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Why would God become very limited? 

Christianity believes that God is the Creator of all that is. Although this is theistic language, another approach is that God is 'I AM' - Being - and as Paul writes, we live, move and have our being in God/Being. Some theologians also use philosophical language to further 'define' Being as 'letting be' i.e. empowering/enabling all to be - in other words, creation. Christianity also believes that God is Love, thus Christians believe, not only that the universe (and all) is created out of love, they believe Love created it (God is what he does). Thus we have God/Love creating and in all creation. 

 

Edited by thormas

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7 hours ago, thormas said:

Why would God become very limited? 

Christianity believes that God is the Creator of all that is. Although this is theistic language, another approach is that God is 'I AM' - Being - and as Paul writes, we live, move and have our being in God/Being. Some theologians also use philosophical language to further 'define' Being as 'letting be' i.e. empowering/enabling all to be - in other words, creation. Christianity also believes that God is Love, thus Christians believe, not only that the universe (and all) is created out of love, they believe Love created it (God is what he does). Thus we have God/Love creating and in all creation. 

 

OK I am talkin definitions here rather than Christian beliefs.

The universe was created out of Love so cancer was created out of Love as well ... in that Love is acting in all creation all the time. There is Love acting on a speck of dust between galaxies: really?

 

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Then talking definitions: if for the Christian, Love is 'letting be' - then that speck of dust is acted upon. Creation is not a once and done, it is on-going and sustained.  Such 'letting be' or compassionate concern is evidenced in holding the door for another (it images God), that is why it is a loving act.

Of course, although Christianity is not deistic, theism (or panentheism) allows that the ever-present God does not coerce men and women or interfere in nature or natural law. Of course such a view, doesn't leave much room for miracles but, from my perspective, that is fine.


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My head is beginning to spin here Thormas.

Letting be is love or God? Now in effect, I cannot do anything about that speck of dust. If by letting be you mean Joseph's acceptance then I sort of get it. But letting be a starving child in Africa that I have and never will meet, that is Love?

What is the point of a panentheist god that lets be does not interfere, apparently Loves and Lets Be?

Edited by romansh

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2 hours ago, romansh said:

Letting be is love or God

We come at this from seemingly very different perspectives, so I am not surprised it doesn't speak to you.  

Not sure how it matches with the notion of acceptance because I think Joseph is talking about accepting 'such as it is' - what (already) is, while I was trying to say something about that which allows what is to 'be' in the first place. Simply, and for lack of a better descriptor (and pardon the caps), it is Being that empowers all that is to be (this is letting be). And letting be can be named love because it is a gracious (gift) and compassionate act that gives, accepts and enhances the life of the other. 

In Christian understanding, we are to image Love/God: If letting be or love, properly understood, empowers another to be, or to have a truly human life, then it begins to become obvious what the Christian or truly Human response must be to starvation or any human suffering. 'Letting be' the starving child is not the same as 'letting it be'  or leaving it alone - it is not passive or dismissive (BTW, I am not suggesting this is your stance). 

Panentheism suggests that God is (already) in creation (but is not identical with creation): there is no need to interfere if one is already present. The human experience of love is that is comes from beyond oneself, i.e., it comes from another (mother, father, friend, lover, stranger, etc.) and yet the love given is here and it has an impact here and now. Traditionally, God is understood to be both transcendent (beyond) and immanent (here and now).  God is 'present' in and through us; God's power is love but like all real love, it is persuasive (not coercive). God is therefore 'limited' for his creation: limited by the freedom of man and by the ways of nature.

This is theodicy: the question of not only the goodness of God, but the very existence of God in the face of evil and suffering.

 

Edited by thormas

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For me

  • faith: a thought that is held as true despite scant evidence for or even the evidence is against the held truth.
  • belief: a thought that held as true, but is incompletely substantiated with evidence and data but likely can be substantiated.
  • knowledge: a collectively accepted position that is backed by a wealth of evidence but may be subject to revision.
  • know: philosophically to be absolutely certain, in the vernacular to be able to recall or understand, and believe either are accurate.
  • data: observations, often formal, of our universe: can have various formats, not necessarily limited to narratives, pictures, numerical descriptions, recordings etc.
  • evidence: is data in support of a particular proposition, hypothesis, theory or perhaps even a speculation.

My first crack at these words.

Edited by romansh

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  • illusion: something is not as it seems, I accept there are other senses ... ie it can be synonymous with delusion.

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