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romansh

Ignosticism

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Posted (edited)

On the original/earlier Wiki page for ignosticism there was a position quoted along the lines that words should be defined otherwise conversations would not be meaningful. I must admit I tend to agree. Now there are many words used here in these threads that seem to mean slightly different things to different people and at times seem at odds to my trusty Oxford Concise (trust me you would not want have Concise dropped on your bare feet). Some of these words include:

  1. Divine/divinity
  2. Transcendence/transcend/transcendent
  3. Immaterial
  4. God
  5. Holy
  6. Spirit/Spiritual ... OK this has been done before
  7. Grace

Now I may add some other words as they crop up but I would be interested in people's succinct definitions for each these.

I am not expecting agreement but just a sense of how people use these words.

Thanks in advance

rom

 

Edited by romansh
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For me each and every word comes under the umbrella of "Reality-as-is". Lived, not defined. Sorry. But yes, interesting to ponder upon the various ways each word is understood by different people....musing over a good pint of ale. 

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A "succinct definition" for each of what i consider abstract words i would hesitate to give on the grounds of too little context for a meaningful grasp and i would be misunderstood.:huh: :)

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Probably best to ask for clarification in particular threads as the need arises.

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Rom,

Such abstract words to me are merely pointers. While we all use them in dialog and discussions they seem to me that that to which they point is not to be found in the realm of thought as Tolle might say. They point to a dimension within yourself that to use his words "is deeper and infinitely vaster than thought" A place characterized by a deep alive peace.  Essentially when you feel this peace arising in yourself as you read or hear the words the essence of the teaching is being found within yourself. In essence it seems to me all knowledge is already in the depth of ones being and pointers are used  merely to uncover that dimension.

Just musing. :)

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21 hours ago, romansh said:

Ok, I'll play. Not definitional but more of a casual free association.  

  1. Divine/divinity - Primary source of creation.  The first mover.
  2. Transcendence/transcend/transcendent - to move beyond a seemingly impassible barrier
  3. Immaterial - not physical.  Pain is physical; suffering is immaterial.
  4. God - Synomym with divinity
  5. Holy - a thing with God-like qualities.
  6. Spirit/Spiritual - the antithesis of death
  7. Grace - a divine force which motivates and drives human behavior.

 

 

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Since Burl has decided to play and offered an answer, thought it might be helpful to present another take. I many times agree with Burl but as you can see:

  1. Divine/divinity - Being, Presence, Love
  2. Transcendence/transcend/transcendent - 'More" (as opposed to beyond or above)
  3. Immaterial - not a term I use 
  4. God - Love/Abba
  5. Holy - humanity in divinity
  6. Spirit/Spiritual - not a term I use but similar to holy
  7. Grace - gift: the continual self-giving of Divinity to humanity
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16 hours ago, JosephM said:

It seems to me that all divine revelation can be explained away by the thinking mind if one is so inclined and the event is thought about long enough. Perhaps, there is a logical explanation or evidence that will be understood in the future?  However, after many personal experiences it becomes evident to the one who has the experiences that there is something in our very being that we can't explain in words that (for good or bad, right or wrong, i can't say) intercedes (for reasons at the time unknown) in the normally natural accepted flow of thoughts in the mind and unmasks a state of awareness that i can only describe as divine. Here is another such life story of mine for those who have interest in such things.

So what does divine mean in this context?

 

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Posted (edited)

Rom,

In this context divine revelation means of or relating to a revealing (revelation) from ones innermost being where a connection is felt or sensed with ones source of life (God).

On the light side, it can be an "extremely delightful" experience. :):D

Joseph

PS Some might use the words "divine intuition" and others might just leave off the word divine and use the word "intuition" but perhaps they all 'point' to the same source?

Edited by JosephM
add PS
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I am still not sure what the difference between divine intuition and the plain common or garden variety?

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ROM,

Perhaps none, Perhaps it depends on ones choice of words, where one is viewing it from and their awareness or realization of its source.

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎16 at 5:56 PM, JosephM said:

ROM,

Perhaps none, Perhaps it depends on ones choice of words, where one is viewing it from and their awareness or realization of its source.

Hi Joseph

Can see that as a reader I am no further ahead here in the understanding stakes?

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That seems to me to be normal , as the mind has trouble grasping such words that are only pointers to something and the moment they are conceptualized they miss that which they point to.

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Posted (edited)

Divine:

might be synonymous with common or garden (as an adjective)? Thormas suggests Being, Presence or Love (all upper case). I have a sense of love, but is Love something different? Being I can only translate as existence? Presence again similar to existence. Burl suggests it is Primary source for creation or a first mover.

My Oxford Concise goes along the lines Godly or pertaining to God.

Burl's first cause ... could be a quantum fluctuation?

Now I am not saying we can't have different views of what divine means ... we plainly do. But using the word when we have clearly disparate meanings means we each paint our own meaning. Which I think is Joseph's point. Having said that it leaves me flummoxed when reading about divine this, that or the other.

 

edit .... I have heard people describe cheesecake as divine. OK I understand they are taking liberties with the word here.

 

Edited by romansh
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We have discussed upper case before and I believe I provided my rationale. 

Of course we have different views and the way to bridge the divide (at least for some) is by engaging in dialogue to see if the fuller explanation 'speaks' to another. Seems there is no other choice but to use words such as these and go from there. And cheesecake is divine although not Divine.

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  1. Divine/divinity - I pretty much only use this term in describing something exquisite, like the above-mentioned cheesecake. as opposed to 'The' divine as though an entity
  2. Transcendence/transcend/transcendent - to exceed normal expectations
  3. Immaterial - something that doesn't matter
  4. God - community
  5. Holy - treated with reverence
  6. Spirit/Spiritual ... OK this has been done before
  7. Grace - a character trait that one may demonstrate by letting others be

This is what those words mean to me, but naturally I recognise that others use these words differently and I may too in order to communicate with others. 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Paul ... I would generally agree with the way you use these words ... just to play fair I will give my use for these words.

  1. Divine/divinity: Generally try and avoid this word as it seems to be read differently by different people. But if I do use it (them) I tend to follow the Oxford definitions ... Godly or pertaining to god.
  2. Transcendence/transcend/transcendent:  Again I try and avoid the use ... the simple use to go beyond I can live with but my experience on the Joseph Campbell site it could point to beyond all categories of thought, apparently this is from Eastern traditions or beyond natural this apparently is more of a Western interpretation.
  3. Immaterial: I would agree with your use ... of no consequence though I recognize that people do use in the sense of no physical substance despite them always pointing to something that indeed is physical and responds to cause and effect.
  4. God: with an upper case G refers to a personal being that responds to our needs. With a lower case g, this could be a whole range of gods which include deistic versions (delinquent Dads) to literally being synonymous with the universe (or multiverse if we are inclined that way).
  5. Holy: Something pertaining to God which some people revere.
  6. Spirit/Spiritual: When I use spiritual for me it is a moment of a sense of awe. Spirit - Glenfiddich or perhaps a feistiness etc.
  7. Grace: Could be a short prayer of gratitude before a meal or a behaviour or trait with an easy manner.
Edited by romansh
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23 hours ago, thormas said:

We have discussed upper case before and I believe I provided my rationale. 

Quite but here's an example of you discussing being and Being:
 

Quote

 

The essence of being is the dynamic 'letting be' of beings.

Being 'lets be' all that is (which includes the universe - all that is, i.e. beings). There is (only) One - but I will offer the words of the man who introduced me to Philosophy (and Being) in 1970: : there is not a multiplicity of beings (in Being, there is only {one} Being) but there is a multiplicity of persons in the One).

 

Being a bear of little brain, this I found difficult.

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Perfectly clear. Thanks for the memories:+}

 

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎13 at 4:38 PM, Burl said:
58 minutes ago, Burl said:

From my viewpoint, evangelization is the work of the Holy Spirit.  YMMV.

 

On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎13 at 4:38 PM, Burl said:

Holy - a thing with God-like qualities.

Spirit/Spiritual the antithesis of death

 

Burl ... So here we have a combination Holy Spirit ... ie some sort of antithesis of death with God-like properties. Unless of course the combination of these words takes on a completely new meaning, which of course is possible?

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Holy Spirit is a specific term for God acting directly on, within or between people.

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34 minutes ago, Burl said:

Holy Spirit is a specific term for God acting directly on, within or between people.

So are there moments in time this first mover is not acting on, within or between? And why just people?

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14 minutes ago, romansh said:

So are there moments in time this first mover is not acting on, within or between? And why just people?

No, this is description not definition.

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I would suggest there are no moments when God is not acting in humanity and in creation.

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, thormas said:

I would suggest there are no moments when God is not acting in humanity and in creation.

For you is there any separation between God, humanity and creation?

My understanding of your Being probably mot?

Edited by romansh
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