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BillM

Non-Self Versus Loving Self?

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7 hours ago, PaulS said:

He probably would've been buggered then (Australian slang for 'up the creek') if he had existed before certain persons had developed tradition, scripture and authority.  These didn't exist in a vacuum before the human species dropped from the trees but rather were developed over time when people started philosophizing and theologizing.  So somebody used their own thoughts at some point (or rather a number of thoughts of others that then started to form cultural agreements).

But I'm not sure what you suggest could be said to be the true position of Buddhism - I always understood the meditation bit in Buddhism to be more about the opportunity to come to one's own personal understanding of things and basically experience one's own thoughts as a basis for personal revelation of what's true to them and sensible to self.

In what I have read on Buddhist meditation it is about silencing the self.  Thinking is to be ignored. It both confirms the realty of self and deems self, thought and reason to be obstacles to enlightenment.  Enlightenment is ineffable, and personal revelation is illusion.

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15 hours ago, Burl said:

In what I have read on Buddhist meditation it is about silencing the self.  Thinking is to be ignored. It both confirms the realty of self and deems self, thought and reason to be obstacles to enlightenment.  Enlightenment is ineffable, and personal revelation is illusion.

I'm better off to leave it to the Buddhists I guess (I'm neither a Buddhist or very good at meditating) but I thought it was a little more nuanced than just silencing 'self'.  I understand it more to be about silencing the 'noise' that ego/self produces and in mindfulness allow the opportunity for one to observe their thoughts, recognize the noise, and allow one's own potential to provide insight/revelation.  Rather than 'ignore' thinking I think Buddhism suggests recognizing it for what it is - just thoughts.

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In Buddhism what one  endeavors to stop is not thinking itself but the obsessive energy that gets caught up in the content of the thoughts. We practice to recognize thoughts as just another phenomenon arising. We practice to stop our belief in the solidity of our interpretation of our thoughts—our “story”—and the emotional patterns and judgments that often come with it.

Another Buddhist teacher  says .....In meditation, we can transcend thinking—not all at once and not by willpower, but by skillfully and repeatedly redirecting the mind. So, paradoxically, in order to arrive at that open, relaxed state of mind, one must engage in skillful application of mind rather than a passive open awareness, at least until all negative mental states, including restlessness, have been set aside.

Doyeon Park says .... As we gain insight from our dharma practice, we begin to see that mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters. That is, we start to understand that nothing exists on its own; all things exist in relation to all other things. In addition, all things are changing and transient. Without proper reflection and guidance, we can easily fall into the trap of thinking mountains and waters don’t even exist, a grave misunderstanding that can lead us to a point where we don’t care about anything at all. This stage, then, is still an incomplete view. Buddhist practice is about bringing more wisdom and compassion into the world, not about denying or neglecting the world we are living in.
It is during the third stage, when mountains are once again mountains and waters are once again waters, that we truly see things as they are. Though the words are the same, these mountains and waters are worlds apart from those of the first stage. The difference is in the way we see them. We can see the mountains from the first stage as a reference to conventional truth, while the mountains of the second are a reference to ultimate truth. The third mountains are a reference to the middle way, which means not getting caught in either conventional truth or ultimate truth.

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Still, there is a clear distinction between the self-referential (and therefore irrational) mysticism of Buddhist meditation and the Christian practice of denying self by performing service to others.

 

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3 hours ago, Burl said:

Still, there is a clear distinction between the self-referential (and therefore irrational) mysticism of Buddhist meditation and the Christian practice of denying self by performing service to others.

 

I don't know if it is as clear as you seem to portray it. In Buddhism, there are 4 Noble Truths and an eightfold path. The 8 fold path includes more than meditation . It includes action, effort, speech, concentration, thought and mindfulness as listed below

Image result for paths in Buddhism

 

 

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I can’t read the low res cards on righteousness.  Are they based on self-revelation or constellations of scripture, tradition, experience and reason?

Righteousness is home base for all spiritual systems.  The 8 Fold path itself is a creed, and is not individual inspiration or revelation.

Righteousness never originates in the self.

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Skimmed it, but It seems I am largely correct.

Buddhism is an ascetic minimization of self and separation from others.  Christianity is a maximization of the self and inclusion of others.

An oversimplification, but that is the forum format.

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11 hours ago, Burl said:

Skimmed it, but It seems I am largely correct.

Buddhism is an ascetic minimization of self and separation from others.  Christianity is a maximization of the self and inclusion of others.

An oversimplification, but that is the forum format.

I agree it is an oversimplification. When you meet someone in Buddhism you greet them with a slight bow and hands placed together in front of your heart.

The palms of the hands are united to express contact between (union of) the Buddha in myself and the Buddha in you. It is similar to the greeting in Hinduism where the word "Namaste" is spoken which basically acknowledges the divine in the other. 

I think you may need to dig a little deeper to understand Buddhism and that it includes recognizing the Awakened Being (Buddha) in all and compassion for not only other humans but all living things. It is not self centered but on the contrary looks beyond the "self" which is the conditioned self for the Self (the Unconditioned) which is in all and transcends conditioning (your story).

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