romansh Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Not knowing why Why? seems to come in two flavours. The first we could paraphrase as to how some thing might occur. The second is as to what is the purpose of something. The first meaning seems to make sense to me. The second I routinely confabulate an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 The only line that I am aware of, in the Bible, that speaks to the lack of division is John 10:30, interestingly I gather a concept added by later scribes, or at least as some literary Bible scholars suggest. Are there any others? Rom, It seems to me that many of the letters attributed to Paul in the NT speak of this oneness in Christ many times. Also John indicates in Chapt 1:1-4 that the logos was with God in the beginning and its what created all things that were made and that life was the light of all mankind. ( my wording and emphasis) Also one that speaks to me as the real mystery from a Christian standpoint isl Col 1:26-27 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. In a nutshell, the Christian is to sacrifice or die to self to reveal the Christ in himself which is the presence of God or becoming as One. Christ is not a single person as in Messiah as often defined. It is more in the Greek as coming from root words as smearing together with God . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Rom, It seems to me that many of the letters attributed to Paul in the NT speak of this oneness in Christ many times. Also John indicates in Chapt 1:1-4 that the logos was with God in the beginning and its what created all things that were made and that life was the light of all mankind. ( my wording and emphasis) Also one that speaks to me as the real mystery from a Christian standpoint isl Col 1:26-27 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. In a nutshell, the Christian is to sacrifice or die to self to reveal the Christ in himself which is the presence of God or becoming as One. Christ is not a single person as in Messiah as often defined. It is more in the Greek as coming from root words as smearing together with God . Not as explicit as John 10:30 I think it would be a heresy for me to say Christ and I are one, regardless of my beliefs and my actions? Edited June 26, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Not as explicit as John 10:30 I think it would be a heresy for me to say Christ and I are one, regardless of my beliefs and my actions? Rom, I can understand you not wanting to be labeled a heretic. However, it seems to me, many great strides have been made by those who have been labeled such in the past.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Rom, I can understand you not wanting to be labeled a heretic. However, it seems to me, many great strides have been made by those who have been labeled such in the past.. Oh I don't mind being a heretic, but in my present state do you think I am one with Christ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Oh I don't mind being a heretic, but in my present state do you think I am one with Christ? Perhaps you have your moments of awareness?... Perhaps you use different words to describe such? What do i know of your present state? Anyway, thanks for sharing and be well and in peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I feel the problem with doctrine is it is in words and words can't say or describe the truth. English for example needs a subject and verb and sometimes an object which supports duality. Thomas Merton's journey to nowhere https://www.deily.org/commentary/thomas-merton-the-path-to-the-palace-of-nowhere-it-seems-then-to-me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 ... needs a subject and verb and sometimes an object which supports duality. I agree here whole heartedly. But another way to look at it is: nouns are actually verbs. Take a tree for example ... when we say a tree we are describing a myriad of processes from the quantum level to the meso, to eventually to the universal. It is only because we draw an arbitrary stagnant line around what we call a tree do we enter into dualism. The universe has, is and will shape the tree. And it, in its way, is shaping the universe, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Good explanation of a noun, I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 My observation is that we exist in God, but there is a division which is exceptionally rare to eliminate. The body may become a holy vessel if it is kept sufficiently pure per 1 Corinthians 6:17-20. Much like Wesley's Christian Perfection or Michael Jordan's hang time, this is a fleeting experience at best. Acts 17:28 - ‘In him we live and move and have our being’. Even Calvin noted there is a panentheistic aspect to existence. In some way, we live within God as a fish lives within water. We always live in Christ, but it is a rare and temporary occurance for Christ to live within us. Pentecost and the early baptisms were great examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 In a hologram the whole lives in every part of it in light interference patterns produced on the material plane; similarly, I feel the consciousness of our Heavenly Father intercommunicates with our divinity within the consciousness of our soul. Our soul is our interconnection to all experiences in the interior and exterior self so we don’t have to decide on being spiritual or physical because we are both sensual and supernatural at the same time. Our human assignment is to discover, balance and harmonize the two in a mature consciousness where we are whole in the spiritual and material worlds bringing light, energy to both as we discover our purpose in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I'm having a hard time following that, Soma. Can you give a concrete example? Obviously 'Heavenly Father' and 'soul' are discrete entities but the traditional Christian definitions don't fit your context. Defining those terms might help me. Perhaps Aquinas can provide some common point of reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 We identify with our mind and feel we our separate, individual units, which works well with linear time one thing happens after another, but the soul is spiritual and is in eternity beyond linear time connected with everything where everything is united. "One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all....." (Ephesians 4:6 NRSV) I feel the main message of Jesus was this Divinity with in that is connected to all. I see the Father as the ocean of God's pure consciousness, which Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." His drop of humanity, his consciousness merged with the ocean. Therefore, if our mind is a cup and in the cup is our consciousness imagine the cup floating in the ocean of God's pure consciousness. "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." The problem is we identify with the mind, the senses and what is perceived so we think we are separate, but if we expand beyond the cup the vessel separating us from the Divine Ocean then we can experience what the saints, mystics and wise people from all religions have been pointing to. They point because we all have different minds so different ways to unlock the windows to fly free in unity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I try to limit my mysticism to small doses. My mind has a remarkable capacity for self-delusion. I think of it like the old WWII movies. When I am alone with my thoughts, I am behind enemy lines. Caution is the watchword. One thing I found attractive about Progressive Christianity is the reliance on the common lectionary. It's the best way I know to hit all the biblical highlights, and avoid ministerial agendas. This week's gospel reading is the Lord's Prayer passage. The "lead us not into temptation" part used to puzzle me, so I would gloss over it as a generic 'don't fall into sin' phrase. Now I realize that as our broken souls follow God's lead we are inexorably drawn into evil and self-delusion, and we even use our good intentions as evidence of divine justification. Jesus knew we would do evil in his name and all the while think we were following God's lead. The prayer is absolutely perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I could be wrong, Burl, but you seem to equate "mysticism" with self-delusion. That may be the case as mysticism has been popularized over the centuries. I agree that being "alone with one's thoughts" can have a self-deluded result. But, that is also the case with the discursive thought processes involved in speculative theology and metaphysics. In my opinion, mysticism, or contemplative practices are, for the most part, experiential. Some may believe certain practices can result in feelings of "bliss", "oneness with the divine" and so on. I agree that these "experiences" are often misleading and self-deluding. It is also my opinion that what is fundamental to mysticism is thoughtless contemplation. Or, as Padmasambhava stated: "Leave the mind alone". That's not a place most people are comfortable with, but my guess is that Jesus often practiced leaving his mind alone. Experientially, this "aloneness" has nothing to do with delusion. In fact, at least in my opinion, it removes delusion from the mind. Just my thoughts on the subject. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 You are kinda right, Steve. Hildegarde von Bingen, Thomas á Kempis and Thomas Merton were extrordinarily productive in their cenobitic lifestyles. I appreciate their meditations, but I am not brave enough to renounce the physical connections necessary nor do I have their spiritual gifts. I do not fast, I am not celibate and my primary spiritual charisms appear to be teaching and sarcasm. From what I have read on the PC homepage, PC seems to have a traditional mainstream Christian focus. It appears to be firmly biblically based and tolerant towards everything except intolerance, which is a rather loveable human hypocracy if you don't take yourself too seriously. An open question to this community: this discussion board is moribund, yet the homepage has fine sermons left without a single comment. Why the disconnection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) I think that teaching and sarcasm is an honorable path to pursue in life. There is far too little of it for my liking. And yes, you are right, there is a disconnect between what is posted on the website and what is shared in this forum. I'm pretty comfortable with discussing orthodox Christian theology and Christology, but the times I have attempted to do so have not been met with much enthusiasm by the participants here. I was born and raised and educated Roman Catholic, and I guess I'm supposed to feel bad for that. The fact is, I don't at all. It had its rough spots, but I have no resentments. I look at it as just one of the things I did in my particular path. I can't speak for Progressive Christianity or for the participants on this forum. But, there is enough of interest posted here, from time to time, to get my attention. I just try to steer clear of theology these days. Steve Edited July 22, 2016 by SteveS55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) I think sermons are meant for us to pin our ears back and pay attention to a long discourse where the board is meant to discuss, debate and joke when appropriate or when life is messy. I like both just like I like philosophy and science, but I am attracted to contemplation and enjoy the experience. Christian Mysticism is not reading about theories or taking anything on loyalty. It only deals with what works to bring about enjoyment and the good qualities of life. “I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.” (Ecclesiastes 3:12) The terror some profess will never relax the mind because it only activates fear and theology is used as a tool to stir up these emotions making God an inference or hypothesis. Theology identifies God as the unknowable, but much in theology is a collection of meaningless words that say follow my theology to know and fear God. Joseph Campbell says, “Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors for you where there were only walls.” I have to admit I like the theology that points to happiness and unity and does not deny evolution. I don’t think mysticism is dangerous as some Christians without knowledge and proper practice would have us believe. On the contrary, it is a profound and incredible spiritual experience that can induce fear in those not acquainted with the mind of Christ. The Bible supports this with this phrase, “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (Corinthians 2:13-14) The fear that extreme Christians invoke is what is toxic and treacherous, not the mysticism. The mystics in different time periods and in different cultures all converge or reduce everything down to one, a unity that is experienced, but expressed differently depending on one’s culture. We also have diversity in theology, for example why and how to wear the hijab and in Christian theology nowadays it seems it is a debate on who is going to hell with the worst going to heaven and the best going to hell. Comedians will say I want to go to heaven, but I like the people in hell a lot more.I m Edited July 22, 2016 by soma make a paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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