What Do You Think About The Recent Transgender Issue

[PaulS]

I think the problem is that there is no real criteria for transgender other than the self identity clause. Any male (adult or child) could technically go in the girls restroom dressed anyway they like and if challenged say they are transgender and feel more comfortable using this restroom. It opens a real can of worms with teenagers and beyond.

 

An additional Unisex/Family bathroom choice for those who prefer not to enter one matching their physical organs presents to me the best option. They already exist in many stores/places and people don't seem to have a problem with them as long as there is still an option for a mens or ladies bathroom. What do you think?

 

Honestly, I can't see why anybody would be concerned. If I am a girl and a man wants to use the 'ladies', what is he going to see? Rows of cubicles? I'm no expert on ladies' toilets, but most girls don't get their bits out unless they're in a cubicle and about to sit on a toilet - relatively safe and private from anybody else in the vicinity I think.

 

Personally I don't think most teenagers would care, perhaps except for those who have had fear & loathing drilled into them. In most other situations teenagers seem to be the most relaxed human beings when it comes to sexuality and sex issues!

[soma]

I think it is just a political issue for politicians who do nothing to solve the real problems to score points. I have seen members at my gym yell at the TV when it is on Fox news which appeals to their emotions and gives them an emotional fix for the day. I think they are addicted to the rush of hate and fear that gushes through their veins. I go swimming with my wife and we encountered a transgender woman and I asked my wife did she use the women's room because I didn't see her in the men's and she said yes. There were no repercussions that I know of and I have seen her there a couple of times. I think politicians especially around election time use these social issues to pull their supporters to the polls to vote. It is sad that they have no solutions except to pit one person against another.

[JosephM]

The transgender population makes up far less than 1 % of the population. I don't think they are even the slightest danger to the rest of the population in the bathroom. The real concern that people have Paul is that a directive that essentially allows boys/men in the womens bathrooms based on choice or a claim that one is more comfortable there opens up the bathroom to more than true transgender folks.

 

 

Honestly, I can't see why anybody would be concerned.

[romansh]

The transgender population makes up far less than 1 % of the population. I don't think they are even the slightest danger to the rest of the population in the bathroom. The real concern that people have Paul is that a directive that essentially allows boys/men in the womens bathrooms based on choice or a claim that one is more comfortable there opens up the bathroom to more than true transgender folks.

 

 

I have seen women walk into a men's bathroom simply because the ladies' queue was too long.

 

Sorry does not cut it.

[romansh]

 

Honestly, I can't see why anybody would be concerned.

 

Here I sort agree with Joseph. I can see people's concerns. Their concerns are based on societal indoctrination. Using reason won't help directly, only indirectly. We are dealing with deep societal phobias (and I am not immune to them). We are not out of the woods regarding homosexuality, despite equality legislation in most civilized countries there is an underbelly of discrimination. This is equally true of race and other social aspects of our society.

 

So I what we are discussing is not so much where we are going, but how we are going to get there and rationalizing our path we want to take.

[PaulS]

The transgender population makes up far less than 1 % of the population. I don't think they are even the slightest danger to the rest of the population in the bathroom. The real concern that people have Paul is that a directive that essentially allows boys/men in the womens bathrooms based on choice or a claim that one is more comfortable there opens up the bathroom to more than true transgender folks.

 

But what do people think these people are going to do in the ladies toilet? A lady doing her business is locked in a cubicle. Is the fear that a man standing outside their locked cubicle is somehow a threat? Or are they afraid of washing their hands next to a man? Why is a toilet considered some sort of safe sanctuary? If they are at risk of men I can think of plenty of situations that are more threatening than a public toilet. Edited June 4, 2016 by PaulS

[JosephM]

Paul,

 

First of all when i ask my wife she says #1 in public restrooms mens rooms are dirtier than womens as we tend to urinate on the floor more and other things. Women are in general cleaner and more odor conscious...

Second she says there are always large cracks around the cubicle doors that men could peak through.

Last she doesn't feel comfortable in a bathroom knowing there are other men near she doesn't know or them watching her doing makeup or whatever in the mirror. Likes privacy and is only comfortable in bathroom around other women.

 

I can't change her but i can tell you she is not alone in her feelings.

 

PS We got a lot of perverts here in the US.

[PaulS]

Joseph,

 

Clearly your wife has never been to a ladies loo in a nightclub in Australia! Also, I have no doubt Australia is up there too in the perv stakes! We have our fair share of creeps and criminals. In fact just recently a man was arrested here for having installed a hidden camera into a ladies public toilet. So even though transgender people weren't allowed to use the toilet, ladies were still at risk.

 

I guess another issue with shared toilets is women refusing to leave the seat up all the time too!

 

I accept there will be discomfort with change. But apart from some instances where cracks may allow pervs to look through a gap, I see all her concerns as just customs she is familiar with which I think would easily be changed once we become more familiar with these changes. Often people imagine the worst case scenario with change only to find out it was all a storm in a teacup and that the darker fears never actually materialised. Not to ridicule your wife's concerns but is a stranger watching her apply some make-up in a bathroom really that threatening to a grown up? That's a game changer that means we will continue to allow transgender people to feel ostracised and ridiculed instead? It just seems like such a small sacrifice to me.

 

I wonder if your new President-to-be, Donald Trump, is for or against the change. Perhaps when he's president he might build a wall around transgender people or deport them all to Mexico!

[JosephM]

Paul to you it may be a small or insignificant sacrifice but here in the US many women see it quite differently and reasoning with them or telling them it is a small sacrifice they have to make doesn't change the way they feel. Men and women are not the same ... men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

 

The present bathroom problem which to the great majority (99+%) was non-existent, and to the small minority of transgenders to which it did pose a problem or at the least an uncomfortable feeling, to me is solvable without directives or laws forcing a ONE change fits ALL. Nobody i know opposes a unisex or family bathroom for transgender or family use as long as people still have a choice of an exclusive bathroom limited to their physical gender. Frankly, i don't see why you would have a problem with that.

 

Incidentally, Target Stores which is the 2nd largest retailer in the US announced that people could use the bathroom of their choice in their stores and immediately social media got over 700,000 signatures and then later another 400,000 signatures of people pledging to boycott them. Their stock dropped dramatically and so did their sales. People take this seriously for whatever reasons. IMO it was a poor business choice for them to take . They already had a Unisex/Family bathroom without any problems and they irritated more people with their new policy than they appeased.

[PaulS]

Joseph,

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that many, many people will take issue with this directive and that they don't feel comfortable with the Federal government enforcing the current law (as I think you said was Obama's explanation). Yet in a democracy leaders are elected to lead - so if people feel that strongly about the current proposal or push, then obviously they have an opportunity to take action. I don't say that lightly, but I do think governments don't often push buttons unless they think the actual majority won't kick them out of office. I guess we'll have to see how this law goes in the future.

 

There may be other solutions as you suggest, but sometimes you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette! Time will tell whether the Nation's majority will move with this change or not.

 

The response to Target's move doesn't surprise me, particularly in the US which seems very committed to what its people see as Christian ideals. Although that's a number of signatures, I wonder if it really is a 'majority'. Certainly from what i can find online, Target are reporting that their decision (and these online petitions) hasn't harmed sales at all, which would seem to indicate that perhaps a lot of people couldn't really care less about the changes. If it was a poor business decision, it doesn't seem to be in relation to profits anyway. Again, I guess time will tell but I'm betting that Target won't change their policy and probably most customers couldn't care less (well, the ones that pay anyway and keep the company profitable).

[JosephM]

Paul,

This is Obama's last year. He is out in Jan so he has nothing to lose and people are taking action.. Target sales ...Target Corp. said consumers pulled back on spending in the first quarter and warned that sales at existing stores could fall in the second quarter--the first such decline in two years.

Of course they might attribute it to other factors

[romansh]

Paul

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX1QHezZUhg

 

is the sort of thing the US has to cope with.

[romansh]

This is Obama's last year. He is out in Jan so he has nothing to lose ...

 

I can't help thinking this is a very cynical and inaccurate view of Obama.

 

It sort of implies he can't see the ramifications that might occur from any policy he implements (if that is what presidents do in the US).

 

Obama is not stupid nor is he (I think) callous.

Are you suggesting he is not aware that his actions could affect this year's election and that is somehow irrelevant his loosing a favourable place in the Democratic Party's history?

Edited June 5, 2016 by romansh

[JosephM]

Rom

Typically our presidents in their last year are called "lame ducks". they do all kinds of things like pardon all their friends that may be in prison or are Being indicted etc. There is a good possibility that the FBI will recommend indictment for Hillarys email scandal and her foundation investigation that appears to have broken some laws and there is a good possibility that he will pardon her if she is indeed indicted. This is not uncommon in the US. I don,t know why Obama did what he did ( perhaps he is indebted to the Gay community ) but there is indeed much corruption in our government. People are so fed up that even Trump looks like a better option to them. yes they are intelligent people but sometimes their motives are questionable.

[PaulS]

Again Joseph, I don't disagree that many people are offended and are taking action concerning this toilet issue. Interestingly it seems a minority of states is taking any action and that the vast majority seem to have accepted the directive (if number of states suing the Federal government is anything to go by). Change in society often goes through these pushes and pulls with laws being passed, challenged, rescinded, reintroduced, etc, until we get to a point that is considered acceptable. For you guys there I don't know where this point will be, but personally I hope it's on the side of the transgender people who are struggling to be recognised as legitimate human beings.

 

I think if Obama was presiding in his last term with a view to 'nothing to lose', he might be picking up on bigger items than shared use of toilets. Gun control comes to mind, but Obama doesn't seem to be firing from the hip (excuse the pun) on that one. And if he 'owes' the gay lobby then again, I think there is a lot more he could do with a 'nothing to lose' attitude towards the electorate than enforce/direct people to follow an existing law.

 

I'm not arguing that there is often an element of 'settling scores' possibly towards an end term, but if politics there is anything like here, I think the outgoing leader still has a lot of accountability to their party and doesn't get to be the 'dictator' they might wish to be.

[JosephM]

PAUL,

 

11 STATES ARE SUING AND IT SEEMS THE REST ARE IGNORING THE DIRECTIVE OR WAITING FOR RESULTS OF THE SUIT. IT WOULD BE A WASTE OF MONEY FOR ALL STATES TO SUE. IT ONLY TAKES 1 TO WIN. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY STATE THAT ARE IMPLEMENTING IT AS DIRECTED THOUGH SOME ARE ACCOMMODATING TRANSGENDER USING THE NURSES RESTROOM OR OTHER OPTIONS.

 

PS IF I WERE A BETTING MAN , MY MONEY SAYS SCHOOLS WILL NOT COMPLY WITH THE DIRECTIVE AND OBAMA WILL NOT FORCE THE ISSUE IF HE IS AS INTELLIGENT AS ROM THINKS HE IS. .

Edited June 6, 2016 by JosephM
ps

[PaulS]

If it only takes 1 state then there would be no need for the 10 other then? Perhaps the 10 feel obliged whereas the other 39 aren't all that concerned?

[JosephM]

OH... THEY ARE CONCERNED ALRIGHT. NONE OF THEM HAVE REPORTED A WILLINGNESS TO IMPLEMENT FROM MY RESEARCH.

[soma]

I feel the issue is center stage because of right wing talk shows, which also made Obama's birth certificate an issue. Nine of the eleven states have Republican governors and I still remember Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell who is now Majority leader made his single most important issue when Obama was just elected said, "What we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." This issue is easy for Republicans to again try to make Obama a villain. At my gym where conservatives yell at the Fox News and the emotions of hate that their shows stir up had a surprise when a transgender showed up. She was very annoying in the Jacuzzi but nothing happened. My wife is Korean and they usually are very conservative, "Did she go in the ladies room?" and she said yes. Nothing else everyone one went on with their business.

[JosephM]

Soma,

Do you think America is really ready to allow both children and adults to choose whatever bathroom or locker room they say they feel more comfortable in (identify with regardless of physical sex) ? The directive includes all school activities. The actual directive is HERE

[soma]

I think we need to do something especially in schools where the children reflect the racism and prejudice of their parents. Bathrooms because they have no cameras was the place where boys and girls would corner a person alone and beat them up.We can do so something and keep children from being hurt mentally and physically, victim and the bullies and having to carry it with them for life.

[JosephM]

I agree Soma. We need to protect those who appear different than ourselves. But you have not answered the question... Is America ready for this solution to the issue or is there a better current solution than the directive in your opinion?

[soma]

I feel the schools have faculty bathrooms for one person at a time and we have bathrooms for people with disabilities so we can make one bathroom with a neutral label for those who seek a safe place. People are never ready for change, but if we are not changing that means we are dead. America persecuted those against the Vietnam war and were vocal, but it was necessary to stop the unnecessary killing of our youth and Vietnam's.

[romansh]

... where conservatives yell at the Fox News ...

 

If I were to watch FOX News, I too would yell at it emotionally.

[soma]

The individuals I mentioned are yelling in support of racism, fear and hate, they really can't argue their position, but love the slogans and want to show their support. I asked the gym administration to change the channel and they told me when Fox is not on they yell at them.